Walnut Veneer Finishing

[dsl1]

So I built my Statements and I love them. I am going to veneer them this weekend so I ordered some Walnut Flat Cut Premium 10mil paperbacked veneer from Oakwood which I have been told has nice quality stuff.

https://oakwoodveneer.com/walnut-veneer-flat-cut-panels.html

I've read through some of the veneering posts here and have a pretty good idea on how to go about gluing it with an iron etc and trimming.


The question I do have is, what I should stain/seal it with. There seems to be a million different options. I would prefer to keep it as natural looking as possible so maybe just sealing it? However, I am pretty open to what I do and am just looking for some ideas/possibilities.

Thanks!

[Rolex]

Stain won't do much on a wood like walnut. You may see a slight difference, but not like you would on a species like red oak. Regarding finishing, it really depends on what your set up is. Do you have to work in your basement? I'd look for something water based. (Benwood Stay Clear is the one I've been using recently where water borne is required).

Another consideration is dry time. Do you need a speedy process? Lacquer is a good one here and my finish of choice about 95% of the time. Gemini coatings is my favorite. Requires a fairly pricey setup and needs to be done in a well ventilated area ie not basement, or really even garage unless it is unattached. Spray knowledge will relieve some stress if you go this route.

A standard brush on polyurethane like a minwax product is a good choice for a beginner. Pretty straightforward, and gives a durable finish. can yellow slightly over time.

Oils like Danish Oil can work alright, though the durability leaves a lot to be desired. Highly labor intensive for what I would call little to no gain in end result over a polyurethane. The biggest advantage for you in this case is the lack of "plastic" looking finish. Because it is a penetrating product, you don't get the build you do with a polyurethane or a lacquer.

Again, all personal preference. Lacquer has been my favorite for a long time. Even though I've used the others, I won't stray from the lacquer on projects that I feel are really important.

[Ntruder]

I just got done veneering 5 speaker cabinets with a Walnut veneer from Woodcraft, so I can probably give a few tips

I used a contact cement instead of the iron/glue method, and I don't think it could have been much easier than using the contact cement. Simply cut your piece too big, apply contact cement to both sides and let it dry. Then drop it on, roll it flat, and you're done! To trim it, I would probably try using a flush trim router bit, but only if its a good bit, like a $20 namebrand bit, rather than a $2 Tool Shop bit. A cheap router bit won't cut through it very well and you'll have paper backing left on and its annoying. I ended up cutting about half of the edges with a razor blade, which I don't recommend. Its too easy to mess up.

For sealing it, I was told the best thing to use was this "oil & urethane topcoat" which is a type of varnish that you can see here; I think it was semi-gloss: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...al--Quart.aspx

You do not want to stain this wood. The varnish will make it look very natural

If you want to see how the Walnut Veneer looked when sealed, check out my build thread:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36737

[dsl1]

Stain won't do much on a wood like walnut. You may see a slight difference, but not like you would on a species like red oak. Regarding finishing, it really depends on what your set up is. Do you have to work in your basement? I'd look for something water based. (Benwood Stay Clear is the one I've been using recently where water borne is required).

Another consideration is dry time. Do you need a speedy process? Lacquer is a good one here and my finish of choice about 95% of the time. Gemini coatings is my favorite. Requires a fairly pricey setup and needs to be done in a well ventilated area ie not basement, or really even garage unless it is unattached. Spray knowledge will relieve some stress if you go this route.

A standard brush on polyurethane like a minwax product is a good choice for a beginner. Pretty straightforward, and gives a durable finish. can yellow slightly over time.

Oils like Danish Oil can work alright, though the durability leaves a lot to be desired. Highly labor intensive for what I would call little to no gain in end result over a polyurethane. The biggest advantage for you in this case is the lack of "plastic" looking finish. Because it is a penetrating product, you don't get the build you do with a polyurethane or a lacquer.

Again, all personal preference. Lacquer has been my favorite for a long time. Even though I've used the others, I won't stray from the lacquer on projects that I feel are really important.

Thanks for the quick response Rolex. I've seen quite a few of your gorgeous speaker creations throughout my reading here.

Moving Them

I can move them outside to do the finishing if needed. Obviously with the size/weight of the Statements moving them less is preferred but I'll manage either way.

Speedy Process

I am in no hurry. If I need to do several coats spread over a few days that is fine.

Spraying

I do have some experience spraying. I painted my projector screen with advice from AVS (Silverfire 2.0 by MississippiMudman) with an inexpensive Wagner Double Duty HLVP sprayer. If the result would be that much better spraying it is a route I could follow.

So from reading your post, the best options seem to be either a lacquer or an oil and of those you prefer the lacquer. I am sure you can get great results with either, but if you were in my position it sounds like you would go with a lacquer.


Edit: Ntruder I saw your thread when I was trying to figure out which wood to get and is part of the reason I went with walnut.

[Rolex]

If you have spray equipment and experience spraying, I would look into lacquer for sure. Done properly it is the best finish I know of. I do not like high gloss lacquers, though, I'd rather use (and do) a hand rubbed effect sheen. Which brings it closer to a satin (or eggshell even though there really isn't such a thing as eggshell sheen lacquer)

The oil, in my opinion, requires a top coat because of its lack of durability. A lot of times that can be found in a wax. Johnson's paste wax is what a lot of people use. I'm not crazy about that product. Trewax brand is much harder, but is also much harder to apply. In the case of the statements, you will have many hours of rubbing to get a decent looking finish if you go that route.

Trial and error is a good thing in my opinion. But, in the end, I'll mention again, it really comes down to personal preference. You clearly have options as to location and type of application. So I would pick the one you think you will like the look of the best.

[Ntruder]

I don't really see much benefit to spraying. The wipe on varnish turns out fantastic and I couldn't imagine it turning out much better with a spray on. The oils are designed to penetrate the wood nicely and leave a strong finish without that "painted on" look

[dsl1]

Trial and error is a good thing in my opinion. But, in the end, I'll mention again, it really comes down to personal preference. You clearly have options as to location and type of application. So I would pick the one you think you will like the look of the best.

At this point, I honestly have no idea what would look best. I am pretty comfortable spraying. However, I am not completely sure if the spray gun I have will do the job. After 4-5 coats with the screen it fairly even but I don't know how it would do with the lacquer. I am guessing you have some nice sprayer (airless?)

See spray gun I have here:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-0518050-Control-Double-Sprayer/dp/B001JEPEES

Obviously I don't want to ruin the veneer I bought either as it was upwards of 300$ for two 4x10 sheets shipped.

So at this point, I don't know what will look good and I am hoping that someone experienced can tell me what they think will look good, and I'll trust your/their expertise.

[Ntruder]

At this point, I honestly have no idea what would look best. I am pretty comfortable spraying. However, I am not completely sure if the spray gun I have will do the job. After 4-5 coats with the screen it fairly even but I don't know how it would do with the lacquer. I am guessing you have some nice sprayer (airless?)

See spray gun I have here:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-0518050-Control-Double-Sprayer/dp/B001JEPEES

Obviously I don't want to ruin the veneer I bought either as it was upwards of 300$ for two 4x10 sheets shipped.

So at this point, I don't know what will look good and I am hoping that someone experienced can tell me what they think will look good, and I'll trust your/their expertise.

Did you see my post? I linked you to a specific product that I was told to use by the guys at Woodcraft. I used it on walnut like a week ago... 4 coats and it turned out fantastic.

Images not available

[dsl1]

Did you see my post? I linked you to a specific product that I was told to use by the guys at Woodcraft. I used it on walnut like a week ago... 4 coats and it turned out fantastic.

Yea I did see it. Thanks

I do like the look but I was hoping to do something a little bit glossier/more depth.

Maybe like this:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=473254&postcount=780

He stained them though and I don't know if I want to.

[Ntruder]

Yea I did see it. Thanks

I do like the look but I was hoping to do something a little bit glossier/more depth.

Maybe like this:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=473254&postcount=780

He stained them though and I don't know if I want to.

I dunno, that link looks pretty similar to the shine of mine; the lighting in the picture is significantly different and mine isn't reflecting anything... Anyway, there is a "gloss" version of the varnish I used. I simply used "semi-gloss so as to make it look slightly more natural."

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2007259/9892/Gloss-Arm-R-Seal--Quart.aspx

The only reason I mention this is because the wood guy I spoke to specifically advised against using an acrylic based lacquer on this veneer... I just don't remember why.

BTW, his staining the wood should have an impact on the overall finish, just the color. That's why his is so much darker than mine. I prefer the natural color of walnut so I obviously didn't want to stain it.

[dsl1]

I dunno, that link looks pretty similar to the shine of mine; the lighting in the picture is significantly different and mine isn't reflecting anything... Anyway, there is a "gloss" version of the varnish I used. I simply used "semi-gloss so as to make it look slightly more natural."

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2007259/9892/Gloss-Arm-R-Seal--Quart.aspx

The only reason I mention this is because the wood guy I spoke to specifically advised against using an acrylic based lacquer on this veneer... I just don't remember why.

Hum k interesting. Yea it is very possible it is the lighting but his seems to have a lot of depth/warmth. I'll call the place I purchased the veneer from too tomorrow and see what they recommend.

[Rolex]

Acrylic lacquer is different than what I use and I would guess it is a water based product the guy at woodcraft is referring to. I use a precatalyzed lacquer with a vinyl sealer beneath. Spraying becomes important depending on which finish you choose. You can't brush lacquer (except brushable lacquer -which is not nearly as good). You cannot always tell the difference between a sprayed on or a brushed on finish if they are both down properly. It's just tha you can't brush some finishes.

The other thing I am crazy about is the touch of finish, I want it to feel nice. IMO lacquer and oil lead the pack with the urethanes a distant second. I don't claim to have used everything out there, but I have used a lot of finishes including a hybrid mix of oil, turpentine, and urethane.

Regarding avoiding a type of finish with veneer, that would only make me think there are quality issues with the veneer. Like a bonding problem between the backer and face. I wouldn't hesitate to use an acrylic based product on my veneers including raw veneer i use.

I feel like I am getting a little off topic. I think my best advice is to buy small amounts of a few finishes that piqué your interest and experiment a little. That way you can decide for yourself which one you like the most. Hope that helps.

[Ntruder]

Acrylic lacquer is different than what I use and I would guess it is a water based product the guy at woodcraft is referring to. I use a precatalyzed lacquer with a vinyl sealer beneath. Spraying becomes important depending on which finish you choose. You can't brush lacquer (except brushable lacquer -which is not nearly as good). You cannot always tell the difference between a sprayed on or a brushed on finish if they are both down properly. It's just tha you can't brush some finishes.

The other thing I am crazy about is the touch of finish, I want it to feel nice. IMO lacquer and oil lead the pack with the urethanes a distant second. I don't claim to have used everything out there, but I have used a lot of finishes including a hybrid mix of oil, turpentine, and urethane.

Regarding avoiding a type of finish with veneer, that would only make me think there are quality issues with the veneer. Like a bonding problem between the backer and face. I wouldn't hesitate to use an acrylic based product on my veneers including raw veneer i use.

I feel like I am getting a little off topic. I think my best advice is to buy small amounts of a few finishes that piqué your interest and experiment a little. That way you can decide for yourself which one you like the most. Hope that helps.

Yeah, you're probably right. I was just relaying what I was told. I'm certainly no paint/stain expert.

[PoorboyMike]

I think my best advice is to buy small amounts of a few finishes that piqué your interest and experiment a little. That way you can decide for yourself which one you like the most. Hope that helps.

That's how I would do it. I took an 18" X 12" piece of scrap MDF, laminated it with some scrap veneer, then taped off 4 sections and finished each one different. When you're done, you can put the finished piece where your speakers will sit so it will give you an idea on how it will look with the available lighting and other surroundings.

[mtmpenn]

I'm a newb with veneer that looks a lot like yours. I've been struggling with the same question.

Check out this thread for an unbelievable looking pair of speakers with walnut veneer and a detailed description of how the finish was achieved.

It seems that a lot of people talk about using BLO followed by shellac on walnut, but then again, there are as many opinions about finishing as there are woodworkers. I decided to try out a bunch of different things.

So far, I can tell you that I was not in love with amber shellac on my test piece. The color was too orange; although, I really like the padding application process. My own attempt at making wiping varnish was only so-so. It built up nicely, but was a little uneven and a little plastic looking. Danish oil does a nice job of popping the grain, but won't really build a film and doesn't seem to provide much protection. I have not yet tried seal-a-cell or clear shellac, but both are on my list to try. Also, in an online comparison of wiping finishes, believe it or not, cheap minwax wiping poly was top rated, so maybe I'll give that a shot.

I don't have a garage, so I am avoiding tung oil based finishes and waterlox (I'm afraid they will be too smelly sitting in my basement curing... maybe this is unfounded though??)

I suspect that my final finish will be a coat or two of oil (danish or BLO... I've still got a lot of danish oil, so will probably just use that), followed by some other film (shellac or pre-made wiping varnish/poly).

Mike

[dsl1]

I'm a newb with veneer that looks a lot like yours. I've been struggling with the same question.

Check out this thread for an unbelievable looking pair of speakers with walnut veneer and a detailed description of how the finish was achieved.

It seems that a lot of people talk about using BLO followed by shellac on walnut, but then again, there are as many opinions about finishing as there are woodworkers. I decided to try out a bunch of different things.

So far, I can tell you that I was not in love with amber shellac on my test piece. The color was too orange; although, I really like the padding application process. My own attempt at making wiping varnish was only so-so. It built up nicely, but was a little uneven and a little plastic looking. Danish oil does a nice job of popping the grain, but won't really build a film and doesn't seem to provide much protection. I have not yet tried seal-a-cell or clear shellac, but both are on my list to try. Also, in an online comparison of wiping finishes, believe it or not, cheap minwax wiping poly was top rated, so maybe I'll give that a shot.

I don't have a garage, so I am avoiding tung oil based finishes and waterlox (I'm afraid they will be too smelly sitting in my basement curing... maybe this is unfounded though??)

I suspect that my final finish will be a coat or two of oil (danish or BLO... I've still got a lot of danish oil, so will probably just use that), followed by some other film (shellac or pre-made wiping varnish/poly).

Mike

Thanks that was really helpful. I too would prefer to not have to deal with the smelly basement curing. Dancingwithbears General Finish's Seal a Cell clear looks good too so that is a possibility. Keep me posted on your results. I have some Minwax so I could also try that.

The danish/BLO followed by another film sounds promising so let me know.

[jbateman]

This stuff is close to foolproof and leaves a nice appearance on walnut. It only comes in Satin sheen, though.
You can get it from Rockler or Woodcraft:



Two coats gives enough protection for something like a speaker cabinet.
It even smells good.

[sawdust]

Just an FYI to consider:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/upload/contents/290/ColoringWalnut.pdf

[savage25xtreme]

Love the black and white document to show a woods finish :B

I would think the tinted bullzeye shellac to make the grain pop and spray on lacquer would be awesome.

[dsl1]

Yea, the B/W images are great... Info is interesting though

[Hank]

I've always used a hand-rubbed Danish oil finish on everything from oak to rosewood to padauk. Oil brings out the grain better than any other finish IMHO. Downside is it is the least protective finish, but if you can keep people from setting their cold drinks on top of your speakers they'll be fine. Woodcraft carries Watco brand:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2000767/Watco-Penetrating-Danish-Oils.aspx

[dsl1]

I've always used a hand-rubbed Danish oil finish on everything from oak to rosewood to padauk. Oil brings out the grain better than any other finish IMHO. Downside is it is the least protective finish, but if you can keep people from setting their cold drinks on top of your speakers they'll be fine. Woodcraft carries Watco brand:
http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2000...nish-Oils.aspx

One benefit of the Statements is setting things on top of them is a reach

What method do you use for application?

[Hank]

I start by flooding the surface, the rub (with the grain) with 400-grit wet-or-dry abrasive paper, adding oil so the surface stays wet. That develops a slurry of oil and wood particles the fills the veneer grain. Let it sit for 15 - 20 minutes, then wipe off the excess (wipe across the grain). After doing all cabinet sides, I switch to 600-grit, then 800, then 1000. Some veneer is smoooth enough that I can start my process with 600-grit. I will usually do one grit per day, so there's drying time in between grits.
Hope that helps - it's a very labor intensive process, but worth it to me.

[dsl1]

I start by flooding the surface, the rub (with the grain) with 400-grit wet-or-dry abrasive paper, adding oil so the surface stays wet. That develops a slurry of oil and wood particles the fills the veneer grain. Let it sit for 15 - 20 minutes, then wipe off the excess (wipe across the grain). After doing all cabinet sides, I switch to 600-grit, then 800, then 1000. Some veneer is smoooth enough that I can start my process with 600-grit. I will usually do one grit per day, so there's drying time in between grits.
Hope that helps - it's a very labor intensive process, but worth it to me.

I have time so I am just looking for a great result.

With a walnut like this: http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/samples...%20Premium.jpg

which Watco should I get? Thinking either the Natural or Medium Walnut?

Can you explain what you mean by flooding the surface? Just putting lots of oil on?

Also, how much would I need to get? The Statements are something like 20 square feet of veneer each.

Thanks!

[Hank]

Yes, I meant lots of oil - don't let the veneer surface you're working on get dry. One can should do it. Personally, I'd use the natural walnut, as most walnut is naturally quite dark. edit: I just looked at the photo from Oakwood and even though that veneer looks a bit light, the oil will darken it quite a bit. Start with the natural and see what it looks like - I think you'll like it. If you want it even darker, then use the Watco dark.

[Hank]

The top appears high-gloss, like poly, but that's because of the high angle of incidence of the reflection.

[jyqureshi]

Check out mine here, used walnut too, I only used Danish oil and wet sanding.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=478059&postcount=187

[dsl1]

Check out mine here, used walnut too, I only used Danish oil and wet sanding.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=187

Those look great.

What did you use to polish at the end?

How much oil should I get to do both?

[sawdust]

Transtint orange, Danish oil, shellac and hand poly.

[Hank]

To show you how oil darkens a veneer that's lighter than walnut, here is the roseweed veneered cabinet in the photo above as it looked before my oil finish:

[jyqureshi]

Those look great.

What did you use to polish at the end?

How much oil should I get to do both?

I used natural danish oil(no color).
I think I used up about 3 small canisters of oil (Watco brand I think). I think three is quite plenty, two might be good enough for you.

In the end I just got some wax polish (Briwax brand I think) and followed the instructions on the container. You just wait a few months to let the oil dry and then polish it.

[dsl1]

I used natural danish oil(no color).
I think I used up about 3 small canisters of oil (Watco brand I think). I think three is quite plenty, two might be good enough for you.

In the end I just got some wax polish (Briwax brand I think) and followed the instructions on the container. You just wait a few months to let the oil dry and then polish it.

Watco has pints and quarts. I am going to order two quarts.

Hank those look great.

Sawdust, yours also look great but are a little too orange for my room.

[mtmpenn]

Hey Hank -

Your speakers look amazing. A few quick ?'s:

1. How many total coats of the DO did you use?

2. Any other pics? I'm curious to get a better sense of the gloss. I tried a few coats of DO on a test piece, sanding with 400 grit, and really could not build a gloss at all.

3. How porous was the rosewood and did you do anything to fill the pores? The surface looks very smooth, much more so than I achieved with DO. This may well be my technique... But te walnut I am starting with is very porous, which I think makes this harder.

Thanks
Mike

[dsl1]

I start by flooding the surface, the rub (with the grain) with 400-grit wet-or-dry abrasive paper, adding oil so the surface stays wet. That develops a slurry of oil and wood particles the fills the veneer grain. Let it sit for 15 - 20 minutes, then wipe off the excess (wipe across the grain). After doing all cabinet sides, I switch to 600-grit, then 800, then 1000. Some veneer is smoooth enough that I can start my process with 600-grit. I will usually do one grit per day, so there's drying time in between grits.
Hope that helps - it's a very labor intensive process, but worth it to me.

Do you flood the surface at the start of every grit? Assuming so, I just want to double check before I start.

[WayneW]

Walnut nuttiness

I would like to pass on a trick I learned the hard way.

I like to use Zar Honey Maple on Walnut. It doesn't tint it much and it gives it that rich dark color (very similar to clear coat). I leave it on for about 5 minutes, wipe it all off and commence to clear coating. I suspect that some would consider that blasphemy, but I have found that clear coating (whether by brush, rattle can or HVLP) a "moist" oil based stain allows the clear coat to lay down pretty flat and even. It is the even part that I struggled with. Areas of raised grain always look dull, but that is lessened significantly by clear coating directly after staining.
Give it a try. You will be pleasantly suprised with the results.

WayneW

[Hank]

Mike and dsl1, I just got back to this thread, so apologize for late replies.
Rosewood is actually a naturally tight grain, so "grain filling" is not the major issue as it would be with the wide open grain of oak. I think walnut may be a tad more open than rosewood, from sample pieces I've had, but still a tight grain species.
Total number of DO coats: If the veneer is quite smooth, I can begin with 600-grit, so it's 3 coats: 600, 800 and 1000 grit. But, I do a lot of rubbing (it really is WET sanding because it results in very very tiny particles in the slurry) with each grit.
dsl1: Key point is to keep the surface flooded at all times - it's messy and you'll have lots of oil/slurry spill down the cabinet sides, so put your cabinets on a big piece of cardboard and have paper towels to clean up with. If you guys go all the way to 100-grit, you will have a good gloss (that's subjective, BTW - I do not like a polyurethane gloss level), call it a satin or satin+ gloss. Please try test samples and start with 400-grit or 600-grit and spend a few minutes with each, using plenty of oil, then wipe off the excess across the grain, go watch a movie or wait a day, go to next grit, etc. You will be surprised how smooth your finish will be. This is slow, labor intensive work, but as I stated, what this does for displaying mother nature's grain is unbeatable. Go for it.

[Hank]

Gotta add a caution here. The oil, as it dries, has an exothermic reaction, so never wad rags or paper towels up and put in the trash as they've been know to actually ignite when highly concentrated like that (I've read that on pro woodworking forums). I just spread out the rags/paper towels on my driveway and when dry, then trash them. Stay safe.
You guys post some pics of your experiments here - you can do this :T

[JonMarsh]

Mike and dsl1, I just got back to this thread, so apologize for late replies.
Rosewood is actually a naturally tight grain, so "grain filling" is not the major issue as it would be with the wide open grain of oak. I think walnut may be a tad more open than rosewood, from sample pieces I've had, but still a tight grain species.
Total number of DO coats: If the veneer is quite smooth, I can begin with 600-grit, so it's 3 coats: 600, 800 and 1000 grit. But, I do a lot of rubbing (it really is WET sanding because it results in very very tiny particles in the slurry) with each grit.
dsl1: Key point is to keep the surface flooded at all times - it's messy and you'll have lots of oil/slurry spill down the cabinet sides, so put your cabinets on a big piece of cardboard and have paper towels to clean up with. If you guys go all the way to 100-grit, you will have a good gloss (that's subjective, BTW - I do not like a polyurethane gloss level), call it a satin or satin+ gloss. Please try test samples and start with 400-grit or 600-grit and spend a few minutes with each, using plenty of oil, then wipe off the excess across the grain, go watch a movie or wait a day, go to next grit, etc. You will be surprised how smooth your finish will be. This is slow, labor intensive work, but as I stated, what this does for displaying mother nature's grain is unbeatable. Go for it.

Used to do it that way in the 70's, did some great looking cabinets, especially with walnut.

Now, I've gone over to the dark side, and do spray lacquer.... and different woods, too. Walnut works well with the oil path, IMO; Maple and LBL works better with Lacquer. Just my own 0.02, of course

[Hank]

Spray - sheesh - where's the sweat?

[JonMarsh]

Believe me, there's plenty of sweat equity in these projects!

[Hank]

If you're talking about the whole project, including cabinet build, you are SO spot on! Before I built my first towers several years ago, I was incredibly naieve about the hours an entire project would take. I'd say on average that if I were accounting for my time, I'd pay myself about $0.0123/hour :lol:

[JonMarsh]

You're probably making more than me per hour... it would scare me spitless if I had a log of the hours put in on the Ardents, for example. The Modula Xtreme have a bit of time in them, too, but nothing compared with the Ardents.

I need a cooling off time between projects so I forget how much work it takes and develop a naive optimistic feeling about the whole thing. Then once I buy the parts, I'm committed and have no choice but to finish them....