Veneer finishing question

[augerpro]

I was wondering if you can use something like Zinser's Shellac Sanding Sealer and later use a poly finish over that? Reason I'm wondering is I'm going to veneer the sides and top of a cabinet, then glue on the baffle and rear panel. I figure I'll get some glue on the veneer when I do this, so I'd like to seal it first. After that is done I'm going to use some aniline dye and finish with Old Dad's poly. What do you guys think? The veneer is bubinga, not sure if I should dye before or after the sanding sealer?

[augerpro]

Ok so Old Dad's has closed shop. Any other poly that is as good as this was reported to be?

[PoorboyMike]

I've heard very good things about the oil/varnish mix that Rockler sells. It's not cheap though.

I'm also working on some finishing ideas using shellac and danish oil, followed up with some type of varnish. I'm veneering a panel right now to do some testing on. The veneer is a raw curly walnut.

Did you get your Bubinga on Ebay? There is some beautiful waterfall bubinga on there now that I'm very tempted to buy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360145366994&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[BigguyZ]

Shellac is a universal binder- so it'll work between any two layers of finishes. So, you could use an oil, then shellac, then poly/ varnish...

As far as poly goes, I have no problems with Minwax's wipe on poly. Another good option is to make a 50-50 mix or General Finish's Armor Seal. That stuff is highly regarded.

[BigguyZ]

I've heard very good things about the oil/varnish mix that Rockler sells. It's not cheap though.

I'm also working on some finishing ideas using shellac and danish oil, followed up with some type of varnish. I'm veneering a panel right now to do some testing on. The veneer is a raw curly walnut.

Did you get your Bubinga on Ebay? There is some beautiful waterfall bubinga on there now that I'm very tempted to buy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Um... that's nice, but that's even more $$ than other etailors for waterfall bubinga...

[PoorboyMike]

Um... that's nice, but that's even more $$ than other etailors for waterfall bubinga...

Yeah I know. I just love the picture they have of it.

Veneer supplies has it for about 1/2 that price.

[AlanH]

The shellac will be fine underneath a poly topcoat, as long as it is dewaxed shellac like Zinsser's SealCoat (which as noted above is a universal sanding sealer). You could run into problems if you use a product like Zinsser's Bull's-Eye Shellac because it contains wax that can cause problems with some other topcoats.

[augerpro]

Thanks everyone for the tips! I went with this poly/oil.

So for sanding orbital or 1/4 sheet?

For a method I plan to:
1) finish to 400 grit
2) apply sanding sealer and sand to 400 grit again
3) apply dye
4) apply two or three coats of the poly/oil with 400 grit sanding between coats
5) finish to 400 grit and buff out with 0000 steel wool

Will that work ok?

[JonMarsh]

I'd suggest trying it on a practice piece and being sure you're happy with your technique and your results.

[Dennis H]

I'd suggest trying it on a practice piece and being sure you're happy with your technique and your results.

Ditto. Usually, those oil/varnish finishes are meant to go on bare wood. They penetrate and then harden. Not sure how it would work over shellac.

[Dennis H]

Oh, and about glue on the veneer, sealing first is a good idea but it may not be practical if your finish doesn't allow it. Masking tape is your friend. If your masking tape isn't good enough, you will have to get the rest off. Never use a wet rag, that will soak the glue into the wood. Peel the masking tape before the glue gets too tacky. When the glue is good and gummy, but not hard yet, scrape it off with the back side of a sharp chisel held 90 degrees to the wood. That will get most of it and you can do some fine sanding after it dries completely.

[JonMarsh]

Ditto. Usually, those oil/varnish finishes are meant to go on bare wood. They penetrate and then harden. Not sure how it would work over shellac.

Yeah, and the way they go on normally they deepen the veneer color, but over shellac you won't get that effect. I've used wipe on poly oils in the past with good results, it just takes a lot of time to do right, and time for the drying of each coat, but the process is forgiving.

This time I'm going with lacquer over lacquer sanding sealer- a more exacting process, but can be done much faster. FAR less drying time between coats! Of course, the organic respirator is pretty mandatory!

Always, I mean ALWAYS, test a new process you're not familiar with on some scrap material; to be sure it works the way you expect and produces the results you want. Can avoid some heartache and a lot of re-work that way.

[augerpro]

Yeah I'm going to veneer some scraps today after I veneer the speakers and test things out on those. I think I'll skip the sanding sealer and just use the tape like Dennis mentioned too.

So no opinions on the orbital versus 1/4 sheet sander? And 400 grit on bubinga should help the dye absorb evenly?

[Rolex]

So no opinions on the orbital versus 1/4 sheet sander? And 400 grit on bubinga should help the dye absorb evenly?

6 of one, half dozen of the other, really. Comes down to personal preference when sanding. I don't think 400 grit sanding is going to help the dye absorb evenly. That has to do with the non uniform density of the veneer. No sanding is going to fix that.

[PoorboyMike]

I'm working on a technique now that I read on a woodworking forum. Walnut can get blotchy when using oils (because of the pores) so what you do is pour the oil onto the wood and work it in using a sanding block and 320 sandpaper. Work it around (following the grain) until you get a past like substance, then wipe it off. After it drys overnight, hit it very lightly with the block and 320 (your just trying to knock off any paste that you might have left behind), wipe it down, than put another coat of oil on just using a rag or brush.

Apparently the paste that is created during the 1st coat will fill all the pores with an oil/sawdust mixture, effectively sealing the grain so to speak.

I'll be putting on the second coat of oil before work and will post up some pics when I'm done.

As far as the dye, you should be able to add some to the natural oil and use this same technique.

[BigguyZ]

Yeah I'm going to veneer some scraps today after I veneer the speakers and test things out on those. I think I'll skip the sanding sealer and just use the tape like Dennis mentioned too.

So no opinions on the orbital versus 1/4 sheet sander? And 400 grit on bubinga should help the dye absorb evenly?

Random orbit over a 1/4 sheet. Definitely. The random orbit is just that- random. That way, you will get even sanding. But you shouldn't have to sand much.

Also, I've never seen anyone reccomend over 220, much less 320 or 400 for pre-finish sanding. If you do want to add a dye/ stain, I'd reccomend using a dealer coat first, then mix if into a layer of shellac of something. The reason is the figure in the bubinga will absord the dye/ color unevenly. I tried dying a curly maple bowl once, and it was horrible. You might have better luck with the veneer, but all the more reason to test on scrap, I'd say.

If I may ask- why dye it in the first place? Bubinga has a fairly deep color as it is... and in my opinion, if you're using a high-quality exotic wood like bubinga, you get it for it's natural color. You might want to try just the veneer with an oil based finish like poly, and see how you like that... Just my $0.02...

[Hank]

That's similar to my hand-rubbed Danish oil finish. I use U-Know Who's wet-or-dry and lots of Danish oil - keep the veneer wet. I hand sand with 400-grit WITH the grain, add oil, sand, wet, sand. Let stand for 15 minutes, then wipe off excess oil ACROSS the grain only, wait a few minutes, wipe again. Next day 600- grit, next day 800-grit, next day 1000-grit, then, depending on the veneer, maybe 1200-grit. So smooth and shiny, it's been mistaken for poly finish. Here's a low-res photo:

[orbifold]

Hank, I like that finish! I had to send it to my blackberry to see--we're image poor at work :roll:
Auger, as far as unevenness goes, oil first could help. It takes a while to dry, but can be coated if you want. Oil tends to enhance grain. Bubinga has plenty of color already. Oil without colorant added wouldn't blotch. Worth a try.

I envy all you guys that use exotic veneers. One of these days!

[augerpro]

So can I use the poly/oil I linked to oil and sand, then wipe excess, then lightly sand when dry like Mike suggested? Or just Tung oil for this? After doing this add the dye directly or added to the final poly application?

Main reason I'm dyeing the bubinga is it's natural color is just ordinary brown. I don't care for it at all so I'm going to dye it red.

[BigguyZ]

So can I use the poly/oil I linked to oil and sand, then wipe excess, then lightly sand when dry like Mike suggested? Or just Tung oil for this? After doing this add the dye directly or added to the final poly application?

Main reason I'm dyeing the bubinga is it's natural color is just ordinary brown. I don't care for it at all so I'm going to dye it red.

I've seen Bubinga having a reddish color, not brown. I have a block or the waterfall bubinga that Rockler was selling, and it was red/purple in color.

I've tried using Tung poil before, and I'd highly discourage using that. It takes forever to dry... (Though it smells really good). If you use an oil finish first, I'd say either Danish poil (which is really an oil/ poly mix), or Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO). BLO contains driers that help accelarate the polimerization process that plain old Linseed oil goes through.

[bob barkto]

Shellac.
Garnet shellac is particularly nice on reddish brown woods like bubinga.

Usually the bare wood will oxidize quite a bit to a dark muddy brown unless finished. Try sanding a bit and see what comes of it.

Dewaxed shellac can be followed with lacquer or varnish (poly or other).

Oily woods like Bubinga do not respond well to oil finishes or finishes with a high percentage of oil in them.
They often times do not dry hard, if at all.

Shellac will bring out the figure as well as an oil would, but without darkening much. Any oil will likely darken bubinga quite a bit.

I'm not sure dyeing will have enough effect to change brown wood to red.
A pigmented coloring agent can, somewhat, but not dramatically so IME. And pigment would obscure the grain. Paint would do it but I'm pretty sure that's not what you are looking for!

So can I use the poly/oil I linked to oil and sand, then wipe excess, then lightly sand when dry like Mike suggested? Or just Tung oil for this? After doing this add the dye directly or added to the final poly application?

Main reason I'm dyeing the bubinga is it's natural color is just ordinary brown. I don't care for it at all so I'm going to dye it red.

[penngray]

I'm working on a technique now that I read on a woodworking forum. Walnut can get blotchy when using oils (because of the pores) so what you do is pour the oil onto the wood and work it in using a sanding block and 320 sandpaper. Work it around (following the grain) until you get a past like substance, then wipe it off. After it drys overnight, hit it very lightly with the block and 320 (your just trying to knock off any paste that you might have left behind), wipe it down, than put another coat of oil on just using a rag or brush.

Apparently the paste that is created during the 1st coat will fill all the pores with an oil/sawdust mixture, effectively sealing the grain so to speak.

I'll be putting on the second coat of oil before work and will post up some pics when I'm done.

As far as the dye, you should be able to add some to the natural oil and use this same technique.

My new project will be using a walnut veener, Iwill have to try this appoarch...what oil did you use?

Brandon, I used a custom poly mixture on my bubinga veneers.

I ended up going to a local woodshop and purchased some of their poly stuff. Im not sure what it was but maybe you have a local woodshop that mixes their own custom blends?

[penngray]

Reason I'm wondering is I'm going to veneer the sides and top of a cabinet, then glue on the baffle and rear panel.

Could you explain why you are veneering your sides early?

[JonP]

Shellac.
Garnet shellac is particularly nice on reddish brown woods like bubinga.

Usually the bare wood will oxidize quite a bit to a dark muddy brown unless finished. Try sanding a bit and see what comes of it.

Dewaxed shellac can be followed with lacquer or varnish (poly or other).

Oily woods like Bubinga do not respond well to oil finishes or finishes with a high percentage of oil in them.
They often times do not dry hard, if at all.

Shellac will bring out the figure as well as an oil would, but without darkening much. Any oil will likely darken bubinga quite a bit.

I'm not sure dyeing will have enough effect to change brown wood to red.
A pigmented coloring agent can, somewhat, but not dramatically so IME. And pigment would obscure the grain. Paint would do it but I'm pretty sure that's not what you are looking for!

I'm with Bob on this... you could do nice things with Shellac, then top coat it with some clear poly for durability.

Shellac really does light up the grain like oils.. and if you don't want deepening of color you could use the blond or lighter colors. Garnet is the darkest grade, a brownish red, then Amber, then the dewaxed Seal Coat, then the nearly clear Blond. You can also use the Transtint dyes in water or alcohol, Shellac is dissolved in the latter. Nice thing about dyes are that they are clear, rather than the pigmented stains that are opaque powders in a solution. No grain obstruction with a dye...

Some reddish Transtint in Seal Coat (for the greater compatibility of dewaxed) and you could get where you want to go. If you want little to no color, the Blond, although not dewaxed, would hardly add any color, just that wet grain glow... A note, you can take any "non-dewaxed" shellac and pour it into a taller glass jar and leave for a few weeks, the wax settles out and you then can pour off pretty much dewaxed stuff. Little tedious, but makes it available.

As always with Shellac, check the date codes on the can, don't buy it if it's too old, old Shellac loses the ability to dry completely.. get the newest you can.

Get a small sampling, try it out on scraps... see how it looks!

[dougsmith]

You may have already committed to a particular approach, but I'll add a few comments about my experience with dyes for the record. To finish my Abbeys, shown below, I did the following.


Images not available


I first raised the grain with water, sanded with 320, then used transtint + aniline dyes dissolved in water as a stain (tried sponging on, then realized that the sponge had bound up some the darker tint in the mix, so I pulled out some of the color (which was too orange) using damp paper towels and I brushed on another, darker coat - wiping off the excess. I then sealed with 3 coats of shellac, sanding in between with 320, realized that the additional shellac coats were pulling out the stain and doing multiple coats this way was a bad idea, mixed some transtint into shellac and added another coat to add back some of the color that I sanded out, topcoated with 2 coats of GF gloss poly, sanding in between with 320, then one coat of minwax semigloss poly, sanded with 800, another coat of semigloss poly, sanded with 1500 and polished with 3M compound. The final finish came out really nice, but the consistency of the stain could have been better.

As others have said, shellac really deepens the color and brings out the figure, and the dyes maintain the clarity of the grain. But it is definitely worth taking the time to test things first. Using a water based staining approach like I did, I probably would have been better off using only one or, at most, two coats of shellac, with no sanding in between (the new shellac layers dissolve the surface of the previous ones, so sanding is not required for adhesion). Alternatively, it might have been best to just apply multiple coats of oil finish, possibly starting with one coat of oil based sealer. I thought that sanding the shellac layers would fill the grain, but this doesn’t really happen, the alcohol in each new coat of shellac just keeps soaking through the previous finish layers and into the underlying MDF; it never really fills the grain and it just dries out the veneer. Also, the shellac dries very fast, so it is important to start in a less important area, like the bottom of the cabinet, and apply the finish in one direction progressing around all sides without any over-brushing. Lap marks will be created where the beginning and end of each coat meet (best to keep this on the bottom).

So, this was my learning experience (gotta start somewhere!). Hope you get the effect you are looking for.

Good luck,

-Doug

[AlanH]

Also, the shellac dries very fast, so it is important to start in a less important area, like the bottom of the cabinet, and apply the finish in one direction progressing around all sides without any over-brushing. Lap marks will be created where the beginning and end of each coat meet (best to keep this on the bottom).

I'll second the comment that shellac dries fast. Of course that's also one of the joys of it since you can easily build up four or five coats in a day whereas an oil-based urethane would take several days. I learned to deal with the lap marks and other defects that come with multiple shellac layers by wet sanding with 400 grit paper on a block and a 50:50 mixture of mineral oil to mineral spirits (the oil slows down the cutting). After four or five coats the shellac will be very glossy but irregular (puddles, ridges, etc.). Wet sand to level everything off, wiping off the oil slurry often to look for shiny (low) spots (this can require a significant amount of sanding depending on how good your brushing technique is). Then apply the final two coats of shellac. After the shellac has completely cured (several days), come back to wet sand with 400, 600, 800, and 1000 grit and then pumice stone for a satin finish. Continue right on up through 2000 and rotten stone for a gloss finish.

Yeah it's a lot of work, and yeah you'll be sick when something or someone scratches it, but until then the shellac just glows.

[JonP]

Hi Alan!

Yep... it is a lot to do a shellac only finish... but they are very nice. Sounds like you've done one since we got together long ago? :T

Brushing is a challenge, maybe I didn't spend enough time to develop better skills when I was doing my Modula MT's... but I eventually gave up and got a HVLP spray rig... helped a lot with the layer consistency, but it was still possible to get runs if I tried to do too much per layer.

Block sanding, I actually did with water and Micro Mesh sanding papers... Was shocked originally by the idea, since water and shellac do NOT normally go well together. But, this was from an award winning woodworking guy... thing is you don't leave the water on the finish that long. Other non water lubrication can be used as well.

BTW, the Micro Mesh products are VERY nice... little to no corning while wet sanding... lasted forever... cut fast and clean. Look for a kit of grit sizes. Rockler used to (still?) sell a pack of smaller squares from about 400 up to 2000 equiv grit. More affordable than buying 3" sq pieces...

(edit) Something I forgot to mention that was very helpful, look into Scrapers. The Scraper was what generations used before sandpaper. A flat blade of steel with a turned edge, you hold it in your hand and shave the surface with them. Because it's a wide and has a flat edge, it's VERY good for shaving off high spots, runs, etc, on a finish... and without removing much of the lower areas. I started using one partway thru the project, along with the block sanding, fixed up a lot of my earlier transgressions.

Here's a slightly fuzzy pic... nothing but African Mahogany and Zinnser's Seal coat: