New veneer?

[Hdale85]

Ok as most of you know I've been somewhat unhappy with how my Bamboo veneer turned out. So the last few days I've been really thinking about finishing my speakers (stain and what not) but I really don't want to finish the bamboo. So I've kind of been looking into some veneers again. I found some Birdseye maple that is wide and long enough to do the front baffle so here's what I was thinking.

1) Do the front in figured birdseye maple and the rest of the cabinet in either flat maple, curly maple, or figured cherry.

2) Do the front and back in birdseye maple and then do the sides top and bottom in figured or curly maple/cherry.

3) Do the front back top and bottom in birdseye maple and do the sides in figured or curly maple/cherry?

Do any of you think these would look good? It's probably going to get a red stain of some sort.

[Amphiprion]

In my opinion, birdseye should be used minimally as an accent. I like option 1.

[Hdale85]

Well depends I think. If it's a darker stain I don't think it looks to overwhelming with a lot of figure on the speaker. Anything really light or a stain that really brings out the figure then it starts to be to much. I've been trying to think of other combination's of veneer that would work nicely together. Been looking at some burls and what not too even rosewood. Heck I was even looking at some copper veneer Many idea's flowing at the moment.

[---k---]

I think we need to see full sketchup models like Dan N. does before offering any opinions.

[Amphiprion]

Wait, are we talking about staining bird's eye maple? Don't let Hank hear you say that I was thinking you meant a two-tone au naturale look.

[Finleyville]

Dougie,

Post some pics of your enclosure from a couple different angles so we can see if using some high priced veneer will work in the first place. Sometimes it just doesn't seem right on a specific design.

[Hdale85]

Honestly I don't know Mark, that's kind of why I made this thread I need idea's.

I'm not good enough with sketchup to really depict birdseye maple or anything haha. If someone else wants to give it a go here's a pic







And yes I was thinking of staining birdseye. I've seen some very nice stained birdseye. Although something like burl, quilted maple, or the likes may stain better? The birdseye maple I was looking at is figured so it's kind of different. Basically it's something I saw on ebay and I was like "Hmmm...."

[Hdale85]

Michael, I'm pretty sure high priced veneer would work just fine Although the birdseye I'm looking at is actually pretty cheap. This is why I was considering going with figured maple or something on the sides and what not because of cost.

[vinceb]

Nice cabinets, those are begging for rosewood or other naturally dark red veneer IMO. After experimentation with getting my ash veneer to actually turn black and get the grain dark (won't take black dye) there is a beauty to a veneer that doesn't require stain for color.

I was on the verge of just leaving them natural but they are too light for front projection, too bad since they would be nice light.

[Hdale85]

Well another option that I've considered is making another 1/4" thick baffle to go on the front and paint that black and veneer the rest of the cabinet in birdseye or something. But then again I do really like the look of fully veneered. Also realistically the new baffle would probably have to be at least 1/2" as I'd have to do 1/4" deep for the recess.

Either way there isn't a lot of my baffle showing so I think this is a rare occasion that you could get away with doing something like quilted, birdseye, or tiger maple throughout the whole cabinet. If the baffle didn't have so many drivers on it I think it would be different.

[Amphiprion]

In my experience it's easier to find nice sheets of curly (tiger) maple than it is birdseye or quilted. The curling is not as nice/dense in sheet veneers as you will find in smaller unbacked pieces but it's still nice.

All the good quilted stuff goes to the electric guitar market it seems. Every now and again I stroll through a Guitar Center when I travel just to see the premium stuff they have. Of course for every beautiful guitar I see there's one in quilted maple dyed 'electric green' or similar. The horror, the horror.

Image not available

[Hdale85]

Well I found an auction for 6 sheets of birdseye that look pretty nice. The problem is they are only 16" wide so they would not work for the sides as I need at the very minimum 18". I emailed a few people to see what they have that would fit my needs.

[---k---]

I don't know. I really like the contrast of the light veneer with the black drivers. Maybe you just need something to make the grain on the existing veneer pop a little more. Something that will bring it more definition without making it darker.

[Hdale85]

It's not the grain that I have issues with. Basically there are lot of parts where the veneer split and did all kinds of weird stuff because its bamboo. I haven't decided if I will stain the speakers dark or not. I was thinking of leaving the front baffle natural colored (birdseye or what not) and stain the rest of the cabinet. Or even just doing the whole thing in an epoxy gloss clear and leave it natural colored.

The veneer that's on there now just has to many problems. I will never use bamboo veneer again that's for sure :B

[Johnloudb]

Well, here's my vote for rosewood. I really like the look of these cabinets we have.

Image not available

[Hdale85]

Yeah Rosewood is nice.... I found some figured rosewood on ebay that looks quite nice.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=220358672621

It's got some holes down in the bottom but I think there might be enough there to do the baffle and what not before it hits the holes. Rosewood and African Ribboned Mahogany may look good together. The only thing with rosewood is I'd probably want to do the entire cabinets in rose wood :B and it's not any cheaper then the other stuff.

[Rolex]

it sounds like you are considering raw veneer. If that is the case, are you set up to properly apply it? If not, you will have serious problems again. The iron on method will not work unless the veneer is backed, especially with something as finicky as curly maple.

[Hdale85]

I have quite a bit of raw veneer that I've been applying to drum shells and it's been working fine with the iron on method. Why is it that it doesn't normally work? The veneer I've been putting on the drums is figured bubinga and birdseye maple.

[Rolex]

apparently you have had some fantastic luck. veneer is thin and too unstable without a backing, which is why it cracks. The only way to apply raw veneer is with a caul system or a vacuum press. I broke down and bought the press. I tried 4 or 5 different sets of speakers with raw veneer and iron on. It failed every time. I learned the hard way. In some instances it took six months for major cracks to form. The speakers were complete, properly finished and looked good, until the cracks started. With the caul or vacuum system, all my speakers are crack free.

[Hdale85]

Hmm well the only parts that will end up being raw veneer is probably the front of the speaker possibly. I'm not sure how easy it would be to vacuum bag my speakers they are pretty large

[Rolex]

which is why most choose backed vener with iron on. They do make bags big enough for your speakers. yes, they are pricey. a bag that size with the proper pump will cost more than a grand.

[Hdale85]

And I guess adding a backing isn't an option?

[Rolex]

actually it is, if you can find someone to do a one time lay up for you. My guess it would be a little pricey, but not nearly as bad as buying a press. off the cuff you would probably be looking at 100 bucks.

[Hdale85]

So sounds like the better option is to just buy paper back veneer...which in birdseye maple isn't so cheap :B

What's been the cause of your veneer splitting? I've noticed with the raw veneers I've been buying they have been pretty thick so maybe that's why I haven't had issues.

[vinceb]

I read more of your build thread, it seems like the problem was cutting the edges of the veneer? I tried the band-it (read crap) veneer cutter and it was wrecking the veneer so I went back to the trusty router. Your sides are rounded, but you could router flush then sand the little extra left due to the router riding on the curved surface. The router bearing is going to dig in a little, maybe tape the veneer where the router bit rides and then just sand flush?

Those are going to be gorgeous.

[Hdale85]

The router messed it up too I did the recesses after I put the veneer on and those parts got screwed up as well. It's just the bamboo veneer.

[vinceb]

Got it. Bamboo bad.

[Chris7]

I missed your original thread but thanks for the heads-up on the bamboo. Unfortunately I've already got a big sheet of paper-backed bamboo veneer I was intending to use for a speaker project

I think I'll be okay, since I only need to veneer flat sides (the baffle is going to be painted, but I'll be careful going across the grain at the tops. Will probably use my veneer saw very lightly rather than my router.

BTW, another veneer that has the problem you've experienced is fir. The grain is too fragile, soft, and narrow on fir to prevent splitting.

[JonP]

I read more of your build thread, it seems like the problem was cutting the edges of the veneer? I tried the band-it (read crap) veneer cutter and it was wrecking the veneer so I went back to the trusty router. Your sides are rounded, but you could router flush then sand the little extra left due to the router riding on the curved surface. The router bearing is going to dig in a little, maybe tape the veneer where the router bit rides and then just sand flush?

Those are going to be gorgeous.

I had good luck with tape on the veneer (but learned to pull the blue tape ACROSS the grain, pulled some with and pulled up some of the grain on Mahogony!) and the flush trim bit on a square sided box. Left a few thousanths tall to sand flush, and worked well with careful sanding.

So, bamboo is very brittle? I've been meaning to try it sometime.

[Hdale85]

Actually across the grain was easier then going with the grain. I'm sure there is a technique to make it work but I'm just not happy with how it turned out on my speakers. Certainly would not recommend it to anyone using veneer for the first time.

[Rolex]

Once poperly adhered to the substrate, the bamboo veneer should be no more difficult than any of the fragile veneers. It sounds like the original problem may be improper adhesion to the substrate. Routing the recesses for the drivers really shouldn't be an issue.

What type of glue did you use, and what was your application process?

[cacophonix]

I"ve used bamboo veneer before and didn't see any of the above mentioned issues. My guess is what rolex is referring to ... maybe the veneer didn't stick to the MDF properly. Did u use hot iron method? I've had varying degree of success with this method. Sometimes it works fine, and sometimes it horrible (especially at the edges and roundovers)

[Hdale85]

It wasn't raw veneer, it was paper backed. I used the iron on method with Heat-Lock veneer glue and went extremely slow. There are no spots where the veneer is pealing up or anything no air bubbles. If it's because the veneer wasn't adhered to the substrate then I guess I had a bad batch because I didn't put the paper backing on. Also a lot of the parts that messed up didn't go all the way down to the paper so I'm not sure? It just seemed to splinter a lot. Just like if you take a piece of bamboo and break it in half it splinters up like crazy.

[Dennis H]

Climb cutting (running the router backwards) helps a lot with splitting/chipping issues because the leading edge of the cutter is compressing the wood rather than pulling it apart. Make another pass the regular direction to clean up the cut. Using a really sharp bit helps as well.

[Hdale85]

So now I really have no idea what I want to get for veneer I'll have to try and find a deal on some paper back exotic veneer's.

[Rolex]

I think at this point, based on what I've heard, if I were you, I would stick with the backed veneer. It is now starting to sound like you possibly have a delamination issue between your veneer and the backing it was adhered to. Dennis is accurate also, climb cutting can solve some issues.

[Hdale85]

Is there a definition for "climb cutting" somewhere? I'm going to take a guess and say it's like do a little bit back off do a little more back off do a little more. Sort of gradual cutting.

[cobblepots]

Unless I'm mistaken, climb cutting is similar to climb milling in which the bit is spining in a way that it will want to "climb" up and over the work piece. This helps reduce chipping as Dennis has stated. New bits also help prevent chiping. (I have a bit for veneer only)

[David_D]

You are spot on Cobblepots.



A good downward spiral bit also is a godsend.

[Hdale85]

So don't use a flush trim bit? I was thinking I'd get a laminate trimmer maybe to use this time around.

[cobblepots]

So don't use a flush trim bit? I was thinking I'd get a laminate trimmer maybe to use this time around.

I used a laminate trim bit with pretty good results on my router. I also like to run tape just behind the edge that I'm flushing to on the veneer and where the bearing will travel. Even through the bearing is supposed to not move, I've noticed a slight pressure line when I don't use masking tape. The tape wasn't thick enough to really notice the extra veneer overhang. placing masking tape on the veneer was sort of a "i will NOT have chips" measure as I really didn't want to buy a new $150 piece of makore that would probably not match... May have been overkill but worth $3 in tape to me.

[David_D]

+1 for tape under the bearing.
The down spiral flush trim bit was what I was referring to...



In the picture, imagine the "router table" as your veneer. The downward spiral will push the veneer to the sub-straight.
The upward spiral will pull the veneer from the sub-straight. This is great for clearing chips & dust but not so great for keeping that edge crisp.

[Hdale85]

Thanks for the image! Makes a lot of sense. I didn't know you could get spiral cutting bits with the bearing. I think a small laminate trimmer with a bit like that could work out great. It's hard to run a big router around those curves haha.

[Brian Bunge]

Doug, what kind of bit did you use to cut the recesses? Most of the time a spiral upcut bit is used when cutting recesses and through holes in MDF as it clears the chips of wood out of the hole better. But if you cut AFTER you veneered, then you should have used a spiral DOWNCUT bit. Same thing when using a flush trim bit as well, as David suggested. The downcut bit will give you really clean edges.

Also, a laminate trimmer is MUCH better for trimming veneer than a router. It's much easier to work with and control. I switched to one years ago and will never use the router again to trim veneer.

[Hdale85]

Yeah it was a spiral upcut. The edges around the speaker though I used a veneer saw that was sharpened quite well.

By the way how's it going Brian? So you moved back to GA it looks like?