Got any tool recommendations (table saw, router, etc.)?

[JonW]

OK, the speaker and furniture building bug has bit me. (ouch) I need some tools. For the subwoofer that I’m building, I borrowed a router and I used a table saw at work or had the stores do some cutting. It’s time to suck it up and buy the tools, because the list of projects I have in mind keeps growing. I know that with tools, like most things, you get what you pay for. Cheap tools will die early on. At the same time, I’m only using them on the occasional weekend. So I don’t need the super duper professional things. I’m looking for specific recommendations on tools- and any general wisdom, because I’m new to this. My drill may or may not die some time, so any recommendations there are AOK as well. Here are the things I think I need:

-table saw
-router
-router bits
-jig saw (the hand held kind)
-sander (random orbital?)

Thanks!

-Jon

[JonMarsh]

My favorite routers have been the big 2 HP Hitachis, though I also have a DeWalt with dust collection that I like. Generally, unless you have a very good dust collection system, routing should be done out doors. IMO. Just my 0.02. I also have a porter cable router with a permanently attached jasper jig.

You'll find all kinds of opinons with regards to saws. I have a sliding miter saw that cost more than my table saw. My table saw was bought based on weight (relatively light, easy to move around (back surgery a few years ago), easy to setup to be very accurate, a fence that is way out of it's price range in performance, and a sliding miter table. Ryobi BT3100. Check out BT3Central if you're interested or curious.

I built speakers like these with it, for example.

[ThomasW]

My favorite routers have been the big 2 HP Hitachis

A mind is a terrible thing to have lost. The big Hitachi's are 3.25hp ......

jig saw - Bosh

Router -smallish router-DeWalt 621, large router-Hitachi M12

table saw - well what's your budget? If it's low the Ryobi BT-3100 is a best buy. If you can spend BIG bucks there are a myrid of options

[Dotay]

The Ryobi BT3100 gets a lot of praise for being a relatively inexpensive saw ($300) with loads of features. It even has it's own forum dedicated to it. I plan on buying one when I actually break down and purchase a table saw.

I am really happy with my 3 1/4 HP Hitachi M12V. I bought it from amazon.com for around $150 or so but I just looked and they're going for closer to $200.

As far as router bits go MLCS Woodworking has good bits. I don't have a ton of router bit experience but I saw these recommended by a few of the members here so I went for them. Check out my thread here for various bit recommendations.

If you need a sander I'd get one of these. It started out as a sander but lots of people use them as buffers for their cars.

[Dotay]

Haha, well it's good to know that the gurus of the forum are in agreement about the saw and the router. :T

[borderdad]

I was lucky enough to inherit an old battleship grey Craftsman table saw, planer and belt sander. I can't imagine life without them. I would invest in a good handheld belt sander. It makes working with MDF very forgiving. Kevin.

[Paul H]

I'll second Thomas' recommendations (all of them) above, and add that if you're going to be doing woodwork of any kind, including speaker building, spend a little extra on the tablesaw. It's the heart of most shops, large or small.

If you have a budget we can provide a few specific recommendations.

Paul

[Brian Walter]

I'll also second Thomas' recommendations from above. I looked quit seriously at the Ryobi BT3100 table saw, but finally decided to go with a Grizzly Cabinet saw. The rip guide is great, as are most guides on the better saws. But for a first saw I woud recommend the Royobi over a big cabinet saw. Your not likely to outgrow it for quite a while, if ever.

Woodworking tools can be a lot like speakers, most people can get by with average equipment, but the more you get into it, the more you want out of it. I used to be satisfied listening to a $300 pair of speakers from Best Buy, but not any more. Woodworking tools can be the same way, it's easy to get spoiled with the good stuff.

Actually, Ryobi makes a fairly decent line of entry level tools. They are a definite step up from the junk out there, but they will generally get the job done at a reasonable price. Also, since you don't have much money tied up in them, your not all that upset if they stops working.

Brian Walter

[ThomasW]

I've not had good luck with Roybi's power hand tools. Over the years I bought 3, they had poor ergonomics, and were poorly constructed.

In contrast the new Rigid tools are quite good and have an outstanding warranty.

I recommend the BT3100 as an entry level saw. If one has the adequate budget up front, a better quality power saw is a once-in-a-lifetime investment.

In my basement there's one of these with an outfeed table...



and one of these with an aftermarket laser cutting guide.... :T

[Bent]

Thomas, how big can that RAS rip if need be? (it looks like it can be turned to rip)

[Dustin B]

I'm quite happy with my Dewalt 621 router that has been recommended above. If you're only going to have one router the general consensus I've seen is the 621 is the one to have.

http://www.patwarner.com/dw621.html

http://www.eurekazone.org/products/detail/sgs.html

This guide is almost as good as a table saw at most things a table saw does well and can do some other things a table saw simply can't. Well I guess not can't, but at least can't do safely or well without huge outfeed and infeed tables and a rather large sliding table. Add the EZ repeater attachment and you'll get accurate repeatability too. Downside is with the repeater you're getting close to a good quality contractors saw minus a good fence cost wise. A table saw can also produce a cleaner edge, but only if it's been setup properly. It really is amazing how nice the cuts off this guide are considering you're using a ciruclar saw. Also check out the Smart Table. Very handy for breaking down full sheets with this guide system.

I'm also a fan of this relatively inexpensive aftermarket fence system that will fit pretty much any contractors saw:

http://www.mulecab.com/TableSaw/

It can make a large difference even over some of the better fences that come by default on most contractors saws. I like it a lot more than the UniFence on Delta's (well except for needing to slide it out the end to get it off).

Although I went for the RedLine version sold by an outfit in Canada. Mainly because I was able to pick up a Toolex 2hp contractors saw at the local wood show with this fence system for $799 CDN. Deal with his supplier gets the saws drop shipped to the shows so I had no shipping and handling charges.

http://store.thesawshop.com/catalogue/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=13

Also check out the router table inserts MuleCab has for table saws. Handy for the hobbiest.

For cordless drills, I've been very happy with my 15.6volt Panasonic. The chuck takes a little getting used to. Find one to play with as the chuck might be a deal breaker for you. Battery life and power are both excellent though. Did a 18'x24' deck with two batteries. Some where around 1250 2.5" deck screws.

Final link I'll give is if you decide to get serious about dust collection. Most commercial dust collection systems while good at keeping your shop cleaner are actually more dangerous to your health than not using one. They simply churn up the really fine dust. This site has more than you ever wanted to know about dust collection.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

[ThomasW]

Thomas, how big can that RAS rip if need be? (it looks like it can be turned to rip)

24-1/4", here are the specs

http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=898

[cobbpa]

I bought a cheaper router that seems decent (only a few projects on it). Model RE180PL, $99 at home depot, or $75 if you want to risk refurb. Some features of other, better routers are included. 2hp, variable speed, 1/2" shank.

[chasw98]

Jon:
Heres my .02. ThomasW has the royalty of the tool world (drooling over those saws). Heres what I bought.
Sander - DeWalt DW421B orbital hook & loop $70.00 Home Depot
Jigsaw - Skil 4680-04 laser light, headlieght, quick change bits, 5 amp $42.00 ebay (factory refurbished)
Cordless Drill - Skil 3/8" VSR, 18V kit w 2 batteries $75.00 Home Depot
Circular Saw - Ryobi 7 1/4" 12 amp $50.00 Home Depot
RAS (Radial Arm Saw) - 1970's Craftsman 3HP 10 inch $125.00 Newspaper Want Ads
Router - Porter Cable 690 series, Craftsman 2 1/2 Hp Free from friend.
Now none of this is rugged enough for commercial daily use. It is not super accurate either, but with patience and attention to detail, I can build some pretty decent pieces of furniture. These are also great for repairs around the house.
Something else I haven't seen mentioned CLAMPS! You can never have enough CLAMPS! Plan on buying about $100.00 worth of CLAMPS! Cheap clamps will fail. Jorgensen and Pony are a good brand available at Home Depot for a reasonable price. Just my .02.

Chuck

[JonMarsh]

Clamps? Yeah, sometimes you do need a few clamps.

[chasw98]

Ahhh... You made the point better than I did, Jon!

[dawaro]

As mentioned before the Ridgid tools at Home Depot are very nice. I got several when they had the lifetime warranty promotion and I absolutely love them.
I have the TS3650 table saw , MS1065LZ miter saw , R3200 circular saw , R2600 sander , and the R3000 recip saw . I have used them for a lot more that speaker building and have no complaints.

I have also recently purchased a couple of the Hitachi tools from Lowes.
B16RM drilll press
CB13F band saw

As far as routers I use the Porter Cable 693 combo for hand routering and the Porter Cable 3.25 HP mounted in a Jessem Masterlift for my router table.

Jig saws are simply Bosch

I use router bits from Rockler , MCLS , Price Cutter

The most important tool I have is my Delta dust collector . I also have a shop filter that I built using an old furnace blower.

For nail guns and staplers I have an assortment from Bostitch , Porter Cable, Duo-Fast

That should get you started. Also as stated before, you can never have enough clamps! And for a safety note if you are like me and have trouble keeping up with stuff you will need several pairs of safety glasses staged at various places in the shop.

[BobEllis]

Yep, you can never be too rich or have too many clamps

Another thing to consider is a decent quality sawblade. It doesn't make sense to put a $150 Forrest blade on a $300 saw, but you should probably upgrade any blade that comes with the saw. I have an 80 tooth Freud thin kerf blade on my ancient Craftsman radial arm saw and it gives very smooth cuts in MDF. The current models of the blade are about $80

Careful setup is very important, too. A thin kerf blade perfectly parallel to the fence uses less power to cut (important for lower power saws) and cuts straighter and smoother.

[JonMarsh]

I'll second or third the vote for Bosch Saber saws. I have a top of the line Porter Cable that's pretty good, too, but the Bosch is my favorite by far.

I'm also an MLCS customer for router bits, though I do pick up Bosch bits from time to time at my local Lowes. Bosch is my favorite performing brand in router bits, especically for their selection of roller guided bits, and thins like humongous 45 degree bevel bits for back chamfering driver or port openings. But, you don't need top of the line stuff it get things done- it's just that it's more fun sometimes.

[JonW]

Hi Folks,

Thanks for all the recommendations! What a great board this is.

Here in my little town, our very first Home Depot is opening this weekend. So the tool supply here is about to increase.

Jon- Those speaker cabinets are _very_ impressive looking. I hope they sound as good as they look.

OK, I’ll get some more clamps. My understanding is that people seem to prefer the old fashioned screw type, correct? (the ones with the wooden handles in Jon’s photo)

Routers: Yeah, I just want to buy one general purpose router. And I’ll probably get a Jasper jig to add to it. So maybe the Dewalt 621, it sounds like? Or a Hitachi M12V. Why might I want a smaller and/or a larger router instead/in addition? I’ll have to look at the bit recommendations more closely. Will both of these routers take a 3/4” roundover bit? For the router I borrowed, the 3/4” bit didn’t fit- it was too big (both the shank and head didn’t fit). And, in general, do you get 1/2” or 1/4” shanks?

Table saws: Yup, $300 would be a nice price for me. Entry level and all. Good to see that there is one that is so highly regarded. Maybe I’ll go for that Ryobi BT3100. Are there any accessories that are needed for this, or does it pretty much do the basics out of the box? The fact that there is a dedicated forum for a specific table saw… I’m not sure if I’m scared or very impressed. Any specific blade to get with the saw? Maybe that “80 tooth Freud thin kerf blade”

Jig saws: Is this the same thing as a saber saw? Bosch seems to be the strong preference. Are all of them pretty much OK or go for a specific one?

I haven’t really thought about dust collection. It’s cold winter here. So I used a router to cut some large MDF circles for my sub, in my basement. I’m amazed at the dust it created. And sweeping it up seems to put more in the air than in the pan. I think that MDF dust will be all over the basement until the end of time.

Thanks fellas!

-Jon

[ThomasW]

I really, really, like Irwin Quik Grip clamps. They're spendy, but occasionally my local Sam's Club and Costco have these in sets for a reasonable price.

Image not available

Dust collection is really a must if you're working in doors.

For a first router the lightweight and fairly powerful DeWalt 621 is great, and it's dust collection system is unmatched (it needs to be hooked to a shop vac). It will take both 1/4" and 1/2" bits. You want the Jasper jig with a 1/4" solid carbide spiral twist up cut bit for doing driver cutouts.

If the router bit head is 1/2" or larger, I use 1/2" shank bits. My local Evil Orange store has a nice selection of Oldham Viper bits at good pricing. And again occasionlly Sam's or Costco will have a box set of cheap oriental bits. I buy these as throw-aways since they're soooo inexpensive

[Dotay]

And, in general, do you get 1/2” or 1/4” shanks?

Definitely go for a 1/2" shank. The M12V will accept a 3/4" roundover easily.

Any specific blade to get with the saw? Maybe that “80 tooth Freud thin kerf blade”

If you do indeed go the the BT3100 it reportedly comes with a good quality 36T combination carbide blade from Freud . Check out this article for more info on the Bt3100.

[Dotay]

Oh, and I regarding the 1/2" shank you can still use 1/4" bits with the adapter that comes with the router.

[chasw98]

So now that you've gone out and bought these cool tools, will there be any money left to buy material? Oh, and before you can make anything, the first thing you need to build is a workbench (There goes the material money). Now that you have the workbench built, you will need to build shelves and hangers to put those clamps away. Oh, and now that.... well you get the picture. Have fun building!

[dawaro]

Besides price the biggest difference between the clamps is going to be the amount of pressure they apply. One of the woodworking mags had an article a while back on this. I think it was Wood magazine. The screw clamps could well more than double the pressure of the Quick Clamps. My self I have a little of both. I have a local Harbor Freight store that I get my screw clamps at. They are usually $5-$10. Makes it a little easier to buy a lot.

[ThomasW]

The screw clamps could well more than double the pressure of the Quick Clamps. My self I have a little of both.

Me too...... :T

I like the Quick Clamps because the amount of pressure is limited (doesn't squeeze out all the glue), and they can be operated with one hand.

I have my fair share of Harbor Freight clamps as well ....

[dyazdani]

I have my fair share of Harbor Freight clamps as well ....

Is there much difference in the quality of various bar clamps? I've seen several lots of them for sale on eBay for a good price and Harbor Freight's are resonable, but I was wondering if there is a drawback to the "value" models.

Thanks!

[ThomasW]

A higher percentage of my Harbor Freight clamps have operational problems (won't lock or hold tight.) Now that there's one of their retail stores nearby I just keep returning them until I get ones that work. I've never had that problem with more expensive brand-name clamps.

[Dennis H]

the first thing you need to build is a workbench

The workbench needn't be fancy. A sheet of MDF or plywood and a couple of saw horses works well. Make the bench the same height (actually maybe 1/8" less) as the table saw so it can catch long boards as you run them through the saw.

[Dustin B]

On the saw horse front. While admittedly slightly pricey like the Eurekazone guides, still very cool and in my opinion easily worth the price. So versatile.

http://www.bullbrackets.com/bull_brackets_uses.htm

And just to push the Eurekazone stuff some more:

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/cuttind-and-routing-lagre-panels

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/tapered-cutter

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/safely-cutting-thin-strips

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/The-Ez-Smart-Repeater

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/safe-and-fun

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/Universal-EZ-Smart

[jdybnis]

The Eurekazone guide looks like a sawboard. Any advantage over the homemade variety?

[Dennis H]

Good one, jdybnis! The DIY variety is automatically self-calibrating. Use a factory MDF edge as the "guide ripper" and some thin stock for the base. When you cut off the base with your saw, the calibration is done. Note, those with worm-drive saws (like my oldtime favorite Skil model 77) will want to flip it right-left. The idea is to have the fat side of your saw table running on the jig. For a worm-drive, the right side of the blade will cut along the line.

[gimpy]

JonW, you've been given some very good advice above. And they are all right with what they have to say. And you are also right. You get what you pay for. That being said, I don't know how much you intend to put into your tools (money wise, that is).

I started a diy speaker project (kit 281's) a little over a year ago. All I had was a circular saw and cheap jig saw. I have since bought a router and a tablesaw, and built a couple more speakers, so, heed what they say. It is addictive. I am in the process of building a router table (all done except for the buying and installing an insert for about 2 months now) and have just started on a workbench. So, you will get busy and it will get expensive (relatively speaking) (tools and wood, books and magazines).

Since you mentioned being the "occasional weekend" type of guy, I would agree with Brian Walter. Ryobi does make a good "entry" level tool (most of the time) for the "occasional weekend" warrior, like me. They are not a commercial grade tool. I have their 3 base router and the BT3100 t-saw. By the way, the saw is a very accurate saw for its price. It has a good (not superb, maybe) fence and the blade is a Freud made specifically for Ryobi and gives good clean cuts. It is a very accurate saw right out of the box. Check out the forum for it at www.bt3Central.com.

Also, Ryobi is sold by Home Depot and they have a very generous (I think) return policy. Buy something, try it a time or two and if you don't like it, you can return it. I've returned a couple of things with no hassle from them from time to time. Sorry for the long post.
Have fun and be safe, especially around the t-saw and router.
Frank

[Dustin B]

Some advantages over a basic saw board.

Zero clearance on both sides of the blade on or off the guide. Both sides of the cut are completely chip free and clean. Gives the same result as cutting on a table saw with a zero clearance insert.

Modular guide rails. 24", 36", 50" and 64" rails available. They connect with a self alligning system. The length of the perfectly straight guide you get is only limited by how many guide sections you purchase. In my case I have two 50" rails and a 24" rail. Combine them all and I can cut a 4x8 sheets diagonally. Rig a square (they also just came out with a self aligning sliding square for it this month) to the 24" and I can cross cut narrow boards quickly. What I have also fits perfectly in a double rifle case from walmart which makes it a snap to transport around in a car trunk.

The guide has a rail that the base slides in, which provides stability in both directions. You can literally push the saw along with one finger and it stays perfectly on track. This also makes plunging a circular saw not only feasible, but safe and accurate as well.

The guide rails are extremely sturdy. I can hold the two 50" rails connected in the middle and it doesn't flex at all. Being alluminum they won't warp and as long as you don't abuse them will last a life time. All the zero clearance parts are designed to be cheaply replaced. The base inserts are $3 I think and the edges for the guides are just under $5 I think. You will end up remaking the saw board periodically, which I know isn't a big deal considering the cost.

An integrated clamping system that never gets in the way of the circular saw. You'll be hard pressed to find a cutting situation that this clamping system won't work with. You can't say the same for a saw board unless you make a bunch of different sizes. Check out this gallery again:

http://eurekazone.com/gallery/safely-cutting-thin-strips

The router base also lets you do some very cool things with these guides and a router.

It's not cheap, but it's not overly expensive either. With some of the extras (EZ Repeater, Smart Table, Smart Clamps) you could replace almost ever other kind of saw in your shop with this setup. A circular saw doesn't have the mass to provide the perfectly clean cuts a properly setup good quality table saw can, but for a weekend DIYer the cuts will be more than accurate/clean enough. The edges won't be chipped at all, but the circular saws vibration will cause some very very shallow marking on the cut surface. Basically the same as if your table saw isn't perfectly setup. It will also easily make cuts you'd want a radial arm saw or panel saw for. And with the router base will do just about everything you'd want a router table for.

If all you want to do is break down large sheets for a table saw, except for the zero clearance on both sides of the blade and not needing to force the saw into the guide, a saw board is just as effective. But these guides are a lot more than just a saw board.

[JoshK]

One other suggestion for tools. I recently acquired a small wood shop full of power tools. I got most of my tools used off of Craigslist. If you live near a big city you can often find small hobbiests or small businesses who are moving, tearing down shop or whatever and if you hold out like I did you can find tools in really great shape for a lot less than retail.

Most of what I acquired was much less than 2 years old, used lightly and paid ~ 1/2 retail. In my case I used the savings to go up market rather than save outright. Often this afforded me, highly bespoke and often american made tools which parts for are easy to come by in case you ever need them.

[ThomasW]

I have a friend that lives on a fairly low income, his choice of tool suppliers are the local pawn shops. People in the trades run short of cash pawn their tools for some quick money. He's gotten some pretty amazing deal on powered hand tools.

[cjd]

Router, circular saw + sawboard, and hand drill will get you everything you need for speaker building if you take the time to plan it out. If you're on a tight budget, put the money into bits and you can even make accurate circle jigs.

Cheap clamps, I still like pipe clamps. There are things they're less well suited for but on the whole they work well. The Rockler versions are the way to go I think. And for really crazy length clamps, they're the *only* sensible solution. I have some quick clamps around for initial pressure and often replace them, but nothing beats the efficiency they can add to a complex glue-up.

If space is an issue, consider the folding Ridgid contractor saw (TS2400LS). It's a bit more than the BT3100 but is a superb piece. I own one - made a custom router table that fits in and makes the "extended" table to be a full table. Accurate fence. I needed it to tuck into a corner when I was not using it.

C

[jdybnis]

Excellent info Dustin. Can I ask what circular saw you're using with the guide?

[Dustin B]

I'm using a Dewalt DW384.

http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=3026

I'm more or less just getting into the wood working hobby. Everything I've built you see on my site was done with my father's equipment. My next projects will be done with my own equipment. Couple years ago I bought him the MuleCab fence system for his saw and researched how to tune it up properly. I so wish I had done that years ago, would have made a lot of projects much much easier.

I intend to build speakers, lots of other home theater room related stuff and make some furniture as well as general home repair/renovation. So I wasn't concerned with getting a lighter saw appropriate for doing lots of 2x4 framing work. The main reasons I choose this saw for this guide system are the 8 1/4" blade lets me cut 1.5" thick material on the guide and it has an electric brake. I also swapped out the framing 24 tooth blade it came with for a Freud Diablo 40 tooth blade.

I've dropped just shy of $3k CDN on tools over the last year and half. I've been careful to get some good quality stuff so I'm hopeful I'll still be using most of it more than 20 years from now. I'm hopefully gonna be in a new house by summer that will have a garage better suited as a work shop and have a room better suited for home theater. At which point I'm gonna have lots of fun

[ThomasW]

I'm using a Dewalt DW384.

Those are a good saw, I've used one for a long time... :T

[Dustin B]

Just thought of another couple tools that are very nice to have. A decent compressor and a brad nailer. I'm partial to Senco. They have a 18guage brad nailer and a narrow crown stapler that are built so they never have to be oiled. Plus rotating exhausts, adjustable depth of drive and a number of other nice features.

http://www.senco.com/con_rem/ViewTool.aspx?toolid=152

http://www.senco.com/con_rem/ViewTool.aspx?toolid=161

Costco where I live has a pretty nice 25 gallon 6hp compressor for $399CDN.

[Dustin B]

One other thing about the Eurekazone stuff. It's all American made by a rather small outfit. This stuff isn't being mass produced yet (don't know if it ever will either), as a result the costs seem a bit high for the material your getting. However that material is extremely well made in America by an immigrant doing a pretty good job of following the American dream.

And because I thought of it now, a great quote I've seen below the odd post on tool forums.

"You swear at an expensive tool when you buy it, you swear at a cheap tool ever time you use it."

[ThomasW]

That's an interesting quote, but not always on target.

I buy high quality tools when it counts. But if I'm simply off-setting the cost of a rental, I buy low buck tools from Harbor Freight. Their 1" SDS hammer/drill frequently on sale for $50 is a good example of this.....

[dyazdani]

That's an interesting quote, but not always on target.

I buy high quality tools when it counts. But if I'm simply off-setting the cost of a rental, I buy low buck tools from Harbor Freight. Their 1" SDS hammer/drill frequently on sale for $50 is a good example of this.....

A buddy of mine bought one of those to install a pool cover (tiedowns in concrete). It worked very well, I think the bit is the weak point in that particular instance.

[ThomasW]

It worked very well, I think the bit is the weak point in that particular instance

Yep, but they sell an entire assortment of bits for a measly $14. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=46754
It's quick to resharpen them if one has a bench grinder .... :T