Compact hybrid OB build - Neo10/AMT/Satori

[sfdoddsy]

I'm finalising the bottom for my hybrid 3 way open baffles and deciding on woofer.

The bass is sealed, about 30Ls. Crossover to the mid (BG Neo10) is 300Hz.

I'm more interested in depth than maximum volume.

So far the Satori WO24 and the Peerless NE265W seem to sim well.

Any thoughts or other suggestions?

I do have a pair of RS225s lying around.

I'm in Australia, so the Satori is actually cheaper than the Vifa, and just a bit more than an RS270.

I'm using a MiniDSP Pwr-Ice and so can EQ to suit.

[Face]

A pair of Anarchy woofers would do well in that volume. Q=.64, F3=63, F6=45, F10=34. Once room gain is factored in, F3 would be in the 20's with no peaks other than room nodes. 200w would give a continuous 108dB without exceeding xmax.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[tktran]

I'm finalising the bottom for my hybrid 3 way open baffles and deciding on woofer.

The bass is sealed, about 30Ls. Crossover to the mid (BG Neo10) is 300Hz.

I'm more interested in depth than maximum volume.

So far the Satori WO24 and the Peerless NE265W seem to sim well.

Any thoughts or other suggestions?

I do have a pair of RS225s lying around.

I'm in Australia, so the Satori is actually cheaper than the Vifa, and just a bit more than an RS270.

I'm using a MiniDSP Pwr-Ice and so can EQ to suit.

Hi Steve,

Amongst those three candidates, what models best for a 1cu ft sealed cabinet is the
WO24. But I’m certain you’ve simmed that.

But how do they sound, you ask?

Well I have used a pair of the RS225-8 and they are a great woofer regardless of price. But they are great in larger vented boxes eg. 40L-50L tuned low eg. around 20-24Hz
A pair takes up 80-100L.

If you are going do use parametric EQ or DSP and have plenty of power then the venerable 10” XLS 830452 and XXLS Peerless 835016, or the more affordable SLS 830668 are hard to beat, in Australia. 10” and 8-13mm Xmax.
Lots of clean deep dry bass in a sealed 1 cu foot enclosure, easily goes up to 250-300Hz

(Bold are the ones I’ve used in the bottom of 3 ways - Statements II
NaO II)

[sfdoddsy]

Thanks all.

I should have mentioned that I also currently have a pair of SLS 10 in a test box. It is too small for them, but I EQ the resultant peak.

I'm hoping for something a bit more comfortable in a small box, and which might make a judicious transform/boost a little easier.

The Satori certainly models best, followed pretty closely by the NE265. I'd also pondered a pair of opposed RS225s a side.

The Anarchies are interesting if I change the box shape a little. I could make it narrower, which is good.

[Bear]

Thanks all.

I should have mentioned that I also currently have a pair of SLS 10 in a test box. It is too small for them, but I EQ the resultant peak.

I'm hoping for something a bit more comfortable in a small box, and which might make a judicious transform/boost a little easier.

The Satori certainly models best, followed pretty closely by the NE265. I'd also pondered a pair of opposed RS225s a side.

The Anarchies are interesting if I change the box shape a little. I could make it narrower, which is good.

The WO24P isn't really a "small box" speaker unless you're comparing it to some of the 60 - 80L monsters. And it really needs a 28cm wide cabinet to have room for chamfers/roundovers. 29cm is better. The Anarchy recommendation is good. I would offer up the idea of having two of them in 20 - 28L with an RSS265-PR (recently on sale for the second time here). The 20L volume would be good for the 704 (wired in series) and 28L for the 708 in parallel. If you have enough amplifier power, then 20L and a 2x2 wiring scheme with 500W will give you plenty of headroom to get to about ~105dB flat in-room with some boundary gain.

Depending upon local pricing, the SEAS L26ROY would be another one to consider. In a sealed box, it should be good at around 20L, or a bit under, with 250W or more. The budget would hurt a bit, but if you went up to around 35L with a Dayton RSS265-PR (500g mass) or a ScanSpeak 26W/0 with no added mass, then you should get an F10 at 20Hz, with an F3 at about 20Hz with room gain.

[5th element]

Nothing wrong with using a box that's too small for a driver and then applying a Linkwitz Transform to it, that's the entire point of the LT.

For sealed cabinets the maximum SPL, at any given frequency, that a driver can produce is down to one thing and one thing only - how much volume displacement it's got. That's it. Of course you need the power, and the driver needs to have the power handling, but the maximum SPL available is irrespective of box volume. The box volume just dictates how efficient the system is.

As a result of that if you're after deep bass, in a sealed box, then you need enough power and volume displacement to create the kind of SPL you're after. Obviously the lower you want it to go the more volume displacement you'll need for your target SPL.

All things being equal the more volume displacement a driver has the lower its bass distortion will be. The most important question, I think, is how well it will go up to 300Hz. Luckily all the drivers you've mentioned, and have been recommended, will do that. Up to 300Hz is the sweet spot for the RS225 and due to its motor geometry it reaches it's lower midrange distortion minimum between 100-300Hz.

For lower midrange duty it's very hard to beat the RS225, this is really where it shines, it's just a bonus that it does really well in the bass too. The WO24 is one such driver that does surpass it. Greater volume displacement in the bass and lower distortion in the 100-300Hz range. The NE series are capable drivers but, imo, are outshone by the slightly superior motor of the Satori series.

The sub bass drivers mentioned are also solid recommendations but it depends where your priorities lie. The XLS 830452 will go up as high as 300Hz but that's its absolute limit and it will need a 4th order acoustic at 300Hz too. I have used it as you are intending and it works absolutely fine it just depends on where your priorities lie.

A suitable sub driver will give you more capability in the bass region but something like the WO24 will give you, objectively at least, better performance within the 100-300Hz range.

If I already had the RS225 I'd use it as a proof of concept, in a knock-up box, to get a feel for what my requirements would be. I've used the RS225 in a ~12L box, EQ'd down to 30Hz, with a Linkwitz tranform, crossed at around 300Hz and it really does sound fantastic but it runs out of steam fairly quickly.

Actually if your box volume and dimensions are pretty much set you could even build the final box and put the RS225 in it. As every other driver on this list are bigger it wouldn't be difficult to enlarge the hole at a later date. I've done as much myself before.

So basically RS225 as a baseline. WO24 for a lower midrange focused design but with more bass capability than the RS225. 830452 (or similar) if you find you really need quite a bit more than the RS225 can supply.

[sfdoddsy]

Well, if I tweak the shape a bit I could probably squeeze in 2 x RS225 if I mount them on the front panel, or more easily if I side mount them.

Heck, I could almost squeeze in two WO24 if I side mounted.

[sfdoddsy]

Thanks again for the options, but after a bit of pondering I’ve ordered a couple of Satori WO24Ps.

My speakers have, according to some, close to state of the art mids and tweeters for open baffle.

If I didn’t reciprocate in the bass I’d be forever second-guessing myself.

Plus the room they are going into is very (overly) supportive of low bass.

If that changes, the woofer boxes the WO24s are going into are about the same size as the Helios cabinets, so it would be quite easy to pop in a big passive radiator and duplicate their bass loading.

[JonMarsh]

well, it looks to me like you're going to have fun which ever option you chose. I'm late to the party, and was going to recommend looking at the Dayton RSS210HO - 11mm of Xmax, a reasonable compromise of extension and Xmax versus sensitivity, and an impedance curve that promises low inductivity modulation if you run it up a bit higher (I'm looking at an application up to 300Hz crossover point.) Actual cone breakup mode is 5kHz.

And of course, there's are old favorite, the SW223BD02 Wavecor. Similar behavior with slightly more Sd.

I've got the WO24 and have done some evaluations, and they're in storage for consideration in a project requiring higher sensitivity.

[sfdoddsy]

I’ve done a test baffle so might as well make this a build thread.



The woofer box is finger jointed walnut, and the test baffle is my usual 10mm perspex.

The plan for the final version was to use black film face ply, but I’m not sure either works well with the fancy joinery of the bass cabinets.

So I’m pondering walnut for the baffle too.

The test tweeter is ye olde Neo3 in dipole configuration, but I have a pair of AST2560s on the way.

Normally I do fully active with DSP EQ, but this time, in an effort to reduce boxes, I’m going hybrid, with passive crossovers and active EQ via the MiniDSP Powr Ice.

[5th element]

Oh very nice!

[technodanvan]

Those look fantastic! Is 10mm perspex sufficiently stiff to minimize vibrations on the front panel, or is there a brace on the backside that isn't shown?

[sfdoddsy]

The perspex is just a test at the moment, probably to be replaced with thicker timber.

However, I have used perspex numerous times with previous speakers.It does flex, but is otherwise very stable.

[Juhazi]

Congrats Steve, it looks very nice! Oval shape on top of the box is also acoustically good because it distributes edge reflections.

Regarding bass drivers, I don't believe that you can hear a difference between them unless driven to over-excursion. Anyway, I'm very happy with SEAS L26ROYs. Other downfire speaker use SB29NRX and it's fine too!. I have't noticed any sagging problems with downfire position, 6th year running now... Vertical heavy cone driver should be rotated 180deg sometimes!

[sfdoddsy]

Uh oh, we have an unexpected problem.

My ulterior motive with this build was to create something that sounded almost as good as the fully active but less than aesthetically wonderful build that was relegated to my lair, potentially earning promotion to the family room.

Hence the fancy finger-jointed walnut bass cabinet, the curved baffle which I intended to be finished in a way that would complement our modernist decor, and the hybrid crossover/EQ via the PWR-ICE meaning I need only one amp.

Alas, I showed my darling wife the test baffle above and she burst into gales of laughter which have continued for most of the evening.

What I see as a manly bullet-shaped baffle, she sees as a large phallic symbol.

She then showed it to a female friend who joined in the chortles.

Making for a fun evening (for them).

This will be very hard to come back from.

What makes it particularly mystifying is that, to my eyes, the current speakers in our family area are even more penile.

[Juhazi]

OMG, gosh, dear Lord - women...

Tulip speaker is a piece of art, one of visually best modern speakers that I know! And impossible to diy with hand tools, at least for me.

My AINO's didn't get applauds from my wife either, but visitors have been polite... Esthetics is a real challenge, but I want my speakers to fit the room and furniture, or at least not to fight against. If the speaker stands so naked and alone like yours, it must have pleasing figure. Either vanishing effect or a statue - anything in-between is a failure.

[Steve Manning]

Uh oh, we have an unexpected problem.

My ulterior motive with this build was to create something that sounded almost as good as the fully active but less than aesthetically wonderful build that was relegated to my lair, potentially earning promotion to the family room.

Hence the fancy finger-jointed walnut bass cabinet, the curved baffle which I intended to be finished in a way that would complement our modernist decor, and the hybrid crossover/EQ via the PWR-ICE meaning I need only one amp.

Alas, I showed my darling wife the test baffle above and she burst into gales of laughter which have continued for most of the evening.

What I see as a manly bullet-shaped baffle, she sees as a large phallic symbol.

She then showed it to a female friend who joined in the chortles.

Making for a fun evening (for them).

This will be very hard to come back from.

What makes it particularly mystifying is that, to my eyes, the current speakers in our family area are even more penile.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]30917[/ATTACH]

Just don't put a pair of subwoofers close by or you'll be in real trouble.

Very nice build by the way .... did you build the above speakers as well?

[Juhazi]

https://www.davoneaudio.com/solo.html

[sfdoddsy]

The Aurum Cantus AST2560 arrived the other day, which was nice.

Less nice was that the dimensions on all the sites that sell them are slightly off.

Fortunately Dremels work on perspex.

Least nice was the frequency response change of the AST2560 that affected some Bordeaux builders.

If I were trying to do the whole thing passive it would have required far more work than I am capable of to get right, but after considerable head-scratching and measuring a simple DSP high-shelf seems to work best.

Fortunately the sensitivity of the 2560 with high-shelf, the Neo10 with low shelf and the Satori seem to mesh well around the crossover region.

Lots of tweaking to do, but sonically (as expected) they sound much like my previous fully active OBs using the NEO3 and SLS10, albeit not as brisk up top.

Given what I'm trying to achieve it'll be a success if I can get close to that with a single DSP-enhanced amp per side.

[sfdoddsy]

More progress. The walnut ply I was planning on using for the front baffles arrived today. Obviously it is uncut and un-oiled, but I'm not convinced my plan to give them a mid-century flavour is going to work. The finger-jointed walnut boxes have a level of sophistication that the more casual ply (and its revealing edges) fights against.



One option is to do the baffles in the same solid walnut as the bass bins. Another is to use a lighter (maple or american oak) timber as a contrast.



Fortunately, I've made a deal with my sweet wife that if I spend buckets of money on custom earrings for her Xmas present, I can spend buckets of money on these speakers as mine.

So now I'm thinking Corian baffles in a dark concretey grey would look cool and have sonic advantages in stiffness and mass.

Like this:



Further experimenting with active EQ shaping the passive crossovers indicates the potential quality from these three excellent drivers is right up there with the best I've had in my room. So the extra cost isn't totally out of line.

And I can always max it out further by going fully active, or go all the way by peeling the bass bins off and turning them into a four way with open baffle down to 80Hz.

Mind you, there goes the stated desire for simplicity.

[5th element]

Corian baffles in an attractive pattern? That sounds like the dream!

[Scottg]

....

[technodanvan]

I think the Corian would look nice, but I'd probably go with a lighter wood like maple - maybe even solid maple ply. I also tend to like the 'endgrain' of good plywood though.

[CADman_ks]

... I also tend to like the 'endgrain' of good plywood though.

I'm in agreement on the end grain of tight layered plywood, like baltic birch...

To each their own, and YMMV...

[sfdoddsy]

I’ve sourced a fabricator for the Corian. Price is about the same as the solid wood alternatives, albeit it a bit more than the walnut ply. Aesthetically and (hopefully) acoustically I think it is worth it.

Speaking of acoustics, I’ve been using a generic Dayton 3 way crossover with active EQ from the MiniDSP PowerIce as a temporary solution, but figured a more custom crossover tailored to the exact impedance and measured response/dispersion/distortion of my drivers would surely be better.

Note: I don’t know how to measure impedance.

So I had Madisound whip me up one based on published numbers for the Satori, Neo10 and AST and online calculators.

So much for theory.

I’m not sure if the numbers, the calculator or the build were wrong, but the Madisound measured worse and was much harder to EQ. The problem was with the Neo10. It should be dead easy to get the crossover point right since the impedance is a dead flat 6 ohms.

But the ‘custom’ crossover low passed at 4k instead of the 3k I planned, and the slopes were considerably off.



By dumb luck the Dayton was only a bit off, and measures flat through the crossover region.



Down the bottom neither is as good as the active LR4 I'd normally use, but the slightly higher 375Hz from the Dayton works better than the 280Hz from the custom one given I can't massage the dipole boost for the Neo10 as precisely as I am used to.

Normally I'd just use an active 6dB low shelf on the mid, but with a passive XO that boosts the Satori too much so I've had to play with peaking EQ instead.

I was also hoping the low placement of the woofer would help with the Allison effect as in previous speakers but it is still a bit messy down there. I can get it flat at 1M or from the listening position, but not currently from both.

Not sure if this a room thing or a crossover thing, but trawling through old measurements the fully active predecessors were better behaved.

Alas, my wife still chortles every time she enters my Lair, and especially if I am playing with the speakers.

She calls them Dick.

[sfdoddsy]

Just continuing my monologue.

The Corian baffles arrived today along with slightly delayed walnut ply ones.

I have to say I am rather disappointed aesthetically with the Corian.

It doesn't look like the examples I posted earlier.

I'm sure it will be functionally fine, but it is more fake stone than real stone.

[Evil Twin]

Uh oh, we have an unexpected problem.

My ulterior motive with this build was to create something that sounded almost as good as the fully active but less than aesthetically wonderful build that was relegated to my lair, potentially earning promotion to the family room.

Hence the fancy finger-jointed walnut bass cabinet, the curved baffle which I intended to be finished in a way that would complement our modernist decor, and the hybrid crossover/EQ via the PWR-ICE meaning I need only one amp.

Alas, I showed my darling wife the test baffle above and she burst into gales of laughter which have continued for most of the evening.

What I see as a manly bullet-shaped baffle, she sees as a large phallic symbol.

She then showed it to a female friend who joined in the chortles.

Making for a fun evening (for them).

This will be very hard to come back from.

What makes it particularly mystifying is that, to my eyes, the current speakers in our family area are even more penile.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]30917[/ATTACH]

I’m with your wife on this one, but thought maybe you could get it past her when I first saw your build... nice execution, but...

and I disagree about your current speakers, it’s the flat top that makes the difference, and the gradually narrowing sides.

[sfdoddsy]

I of course bow to your knowledge of all things dark and evil.

But in my defence feel obliged to point out that the Salk Archos and Kyron Kronos have the same shape and no-one (to my knowledge) calls them the Dick Speakers.

Initially I wasn't brave enough to mention to my darling something that crossed my mind at her comment, but when her chortles continued for a month or so I did.

If the shape of my boys suggests anything frisky to me, it is that of an electrical device usually associated with (but not exclusive) to gals.

Of course, this just made her laugh more.

[JonMarsh]

More progress. The walnut ply I was planning on using for the front baffles arrived today. Obviously it is uncut and un-oiled, but I'm not convinced my plan to give them a mid-century flavour is going to work. The finger-jointed walnut boxes have a level of sophistication that the more casual ply (and its revealing edges) fights against.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30938[/ATTACH]

One option is to do the baffles in the same solid walnut as the bass bins. Another is to use a lighter (maple or american oak) timber as a contrast.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30937[/ATTACH]

Fortunately, I've made a deal with my sweet wife that if I spend buckets of money on custom earrings for her Xmas present, I can spend buckets of money on these speakers as mine.

So now I'm thinking Corian baffles in a dark concretey grey would look cool and have sonic advantages in stiffness and mass.

Like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30939[/ATTACH]

Further experimenting with active EQ shaping the passive crossovers indicates the potential quality from these three excellent drivers is right up there with the best I've had in my room. So the extra cost isn't totally out of line.

And I can always max it out further by going fully active, or go all the way by peeling the bass bins off and turning them into a four way with open baffle down to 80Hz.

Mind you, there goes the stated desire for simplicity.

I like your negotiation skills!

[sfdoddsy]

Finished! (Tidying up rear wiring aside).

[Bear]

Congrats! How is it sounding?

[TEK]

This has been a really fun thread to follow.
Nice build and some really impressive skills and diversity in craftmanship!
Handling different materials, electrics and special joint types is the true sign of a multi-artist!

Thanks for sharing.
Hope you will share sound impression and friends reactions as welll

[sfdoddsy]

Thanks for the kind words. It's difficult to be definitive about the sound as I've been running various iterations of Linkwitz-based three-way open baffles for close to 20 years.

All have sounded more alike than different. Even my wall-mounted OB coaxes with the Seas C18 sounded more like my Orions than closed box speakers with similar drivers like my KEF References.

I think switching to the natively dipole BG Neo10 and Neo3 in a stepped baffle was a more notable step towards the sound I like than swapping between the various dynamic drivers pure Linkwitz dipoles use.

And I think the AST2560 tweeter (even in the annoying newer version) is better than the Neo3, if not as sexily sizzly.

When I was running them fully active I thought the sound above the crossover to the bass at 300Hz was as good as I've heard.

My rose-tinted aural memory wants me to believe that the bass I was getting with a pair of AE 12 inch dipole bass drivers a side on my old speakers was subjectively better, but the sealed and Eqed Satoris sound pretty good.

What I'm most happy about is that this passive version is in the same ballpark both objectively and subjectively as my previous fully active OBs (albeit that this only possible due to DSP wizardy of the MiniDSP PowerIce). And that it is my first DIY build in 20 years of trying that doesn't look like a DIY build (dick gags aside).

Sure they are not at the same aesthetic level as the Davone Solos in our family area, but very few speakers are.

[sfdoddsy]

One thing I forgot to mention in my summing up above was that the only real difficulty was with the passive crossover.

All my previous speakers have been fully active. Passive is a mystery, and I have the soldering skills of a drunk dolphin.

Fortunately (I thought) the Neo10 and AST2560 have, according to their specs and independent measurements, basically flat impedances and no resonances. And I was always going to actively EQ the overall response to take care of dipole roll-off. So I figured the crossover merely had to cross at the correct point.

Fortuitously, those points coincided with one of the generic crossovers Parts Express sell so I bought a couple as proof of concept.

They worked pretty well, so I used an online simulator to design a more polished version using the exact impedances and then had Madisound build it for me.

I was expecting the xover points to be pretty much bang on, but when I hooked them up they were pretty much bang off.

Bass was OK, but the mid/tweeter was 2K higher, and slopes too gentle.

I have no idea whether it was the simulator, Madisound or me, but I ended up using the generic Parts Express crossovers.

I had to do quite a bit of fiddling to get the bass/midrange right due to the dipole boost needed for the midrange, but the mid/tweeter is as flat as one could desire.

I tip my hat to Jon and those here who do complex passive crossovers.