A New Adventure

[JonMarsh]

Something to keep in mind there, is that it is the Lumen cap that is enhancing the Clarity, not the other way around.

We've used the Lumens before for some other builds, including the Minerva, so that guided the choice. Clarity MR or CMR just seemed too over the top for this case.

But you know, that's a very individual choice and dependent on the overall system usage and factors like DACs and other sources.

Right now, I'm favorably impressed after putting a few 10's of hours on the drivers and crossover, but this has only been with the DAC's built in to the TC Konnekt driving a Cambridge 840e preamp and an Aragon 8008 X3 power amp, my standard driver test setup. Since moving in February I've been so busy with work I haven't had time to setup my sonic orbiter based music server and Signature Rendu and Terminator DAC and Hyperion power amp. Working 7 days a week at your day job tends to give one very little spare time, haver to prioritize on the most important tasks...

[ergo]

Jon, you should really consider moving to Europe subsidiary somewhere. At least work hours would be more reasonable and it would be rare that one is expected to work 7/7. That sort of thing is just not very sustainable long run...
But I guess it is same as reverse... when one starts to think about how many power tools stop working and would need to be bought new etc. After of course the difference in other cultural, political and social aspects....

Working for a big global company too I have had to think about the prospect of moving the other direction. Work hour culture would be one for the 'Negatives' bucket over there, but I guess that differs by region and company too.

[TEK]

Jon, you should come over to Norwsy.
But be warned - our work culture is so strange that the university are actually courses in it...

https://www.uio.no/english/for-employees/competence/overview-courses/communication/working-in-norway/working-in-norway-2019-02-26.html

And this is what to expect:

https://globuzzer.mn.co/posts/working-culture-in-norway-what-is-it-like-to-work-in-norway

[cochinada]

Me and some colleagues of mine were actually interviewed f2f by a so called Security officer that came from Norway for that purpose because of some remote support we will provide. I just didn't like the personal/private questions we were asked. I felt they were totally invasive of my privacy but they are very worried with hackers and espionage stuff. Pretty much what we see on the movies.

[JonMarsh]

Jon, you should really consider moving to Europe subsidiary somewhere. At least work hours would be more reasonable and it would be rare that one is expected to work 7/7. That sort of thing is just not very sustainable long run...
But I guess it is same as reverse... when one starts to think about how many power tools stop working and would need to be bought new etc. After of course the difference in other cultural, political and social aspects....

Working for a big global company too I have had to think about the prospect of moving the other direction. Work hour culture would be one for the 'Negatives' bucket over there, but I guess that differs by region and company too.

Comments appreciated and understood- I've worked closely with some of my colleagues in Muenchen and Villach in the past.

It's a very strange and abnormal situation I find myself in right now... we had two Application Engineers leave (one for his dream job, the other pushed out due to performance issues and personality problems) by the end of 2017. Their work was "re-assigned" to two other AE's, who of course at that point were pretty slammed with work load.

Replacements were not found until the last quarter of 2018. They were not assigned or did not take on any of the work of the departed AEs; one was a new overall AE manager, which every one on the AE team that interviewed him gave thumbs down because of poor technical knowledge in many areas. BTW, he has a PhD.

He is the new AE manager for all AE's in our division, not just for two AE's and one tech. He assigned one of the AE's still doing two jobs to work on a special project with me, half time from May through the end of July. Of course, when that time came, it was clear that he could not due that, as the department director prioritized business development and customer development over an urgently needed and delayed development system. So, I am working weekends to make up the missing three month half time contribution of about 240-260 hours. Do the math... at the least, that's 26 weekend days, or the rest of the summer. Which is most of the balance of the fiscal year. And I still have some other assignments to complete this fiscal year. (end of September).

And this doesn't even bring up that due to CapEx budget issues, I supply all the test equipment in the lab for my bench at our office myself, and have $20K of equipment loaned out to two other AE's so that they can actually accomplish their work (two Teledyne-LeCroy active Wideband current probes, and a 4 channel 12 bit 350MHz Teledyne-LeCroy scope). It was acknowledged at our last team meeting that replacing that equipment must be a top priority for the 2019/2020 fiscal year CapEx budget, as I'm leaving at the end of 2020 (retirement).

So, life is interesting. But with retirement in the very foreseeable future, I figure I can cope with another 18 months or so of BS. I am hearing indirectly from others that the managing director for our team is concerned about how some things will be managed or taken care of after I leave- he's asked that I stay on another year at least, but I was full retirement age two years ago. Working longer I have more money in my deferred income plan and will have a larger monthly Social Security payout by deferring when I start collecting it. But my plans will be met by leaving the end of next year.

[JonMarsh]

Jon, you should come over to Norwsy.
But be warned - our work culture is so strange that the university are actually courses in it...

https://www.uio.no/english/for-employees/competence/overview-courses/communication/working-in-norway/working-in-norway-2019-02-26.html

And this is what to expect:
https://globuzzer.mn.co/posts/workin...work-in-norway

That's very interesting! The part about everyone talking before the boss is something I recognize right away- that is a standard military protocol for meetings so that subordinates speak relatively freely and as many ideas are passed around as possible, before the commanding officer to then pick and chose what is the best path in his estimation.

But cultural adaptation is a big thing, and having courses on it is smart.

Our new AE manager grew up in China, and he has a lot of ingrained attitudes that don't mesh well with either European or modern American management techniques.

It also doesn't help him in his relationship with me that I am a Senior Principal Engineer, and hence my global grade (rank) is actually higher than him or his manager- due to proven results. (you have to interview and present your case to an upper management technical team in Europe to get promoted to that- you cannot be promoted by anyone in the US organization, not even the CEO. Equivalent to senior director...

[JonMarsh]

Me and some colleagues of mine were actually interviewed f2f by a so called Security officer that came from Norway for that purpose because of some remote support we will provide. I just didn't like the personal/private questions we were asked. I felt they were totally invasive of my privacy but they are very worried with hackers and espionage stuff. Pretty much what we see on the movies.

Wow! That's pretty interesting... but these days that may be a very sensible and necessary precaution. The thing that I observe the last few years is that things happen these days that 5 years ago you would never see in a movie plot, because they'd be considered too improbable or unbelievable.

[TEK]

So, I am working weekends to make up the missing three month half time contribution of about 240-260 hours

I do understand that several (staffing) incident has accured that has led to this situation.
However, are this really the only cause of action possible?

Seems to be a lot to learn about project managment, risk managment, escalation and prioritizing from this case.
Especially as there seems to be a pattern where stuff gets fucked up and you Jon saves the day by doing all the work yourself. I think your boss has all the reasons in the world to be afraid of you leaving as the organization seems to compensate for poor managment by «throwing jon hours» onto the problem.
For his and all others sake, the good thing is that when someone really good leaves a company it often leaves a void and others may raise up to the ocation and shine.
Or the product, customer, apartment or company may dimish (not so good of corse)...

Anyway - are you sure this product beeing developed is so important that it’s worth all you freetime and possible your health? Based on how it’s been managed it does not seem to be that important to you bosses...

[Supernova]

@Steve Manning

Very cool setup and congrats on your new venture, I wish you success.

I got the impression you might offer custom CNC work for DIYers? DIYSoundGroup did a semi-custom baffle for me when I was building my SEOS12/TD12M's and Bill Laswell did the crossover. However that was when they just got started and I don't believe they do anything like that anymore. When I build my friend a pair of Statements, years ago, I found the baffle work daunting, so always looking for alternatives.

Looking forward to seeing the website and your progression.

Peter

[Steve Manning]

@Steve Manning

Very cool setup and congrats on your new venture, I wish you success.

I got the impression you might offer custom CNC work for DIYers? DIYSoundGroup did a semi-custom baffle for me when I was building my SEOS12/TD12M's and Bill Laswell did the crossover. However that was when they just got started and I don't believe they do anything like that anymore. When I build my friend a pair of Statements, years ago, I found the baffle work daunting, so always looking for alternatives.

Looking forward to seeing the website and your progression.

Peter

Thanks Peter .... Custom work is certainly something that is being offered, CNC or otherwise.

[JonMarsh]

I do understand that several (staffing) incident has accured that has led to this situation.
However, are this really the only cause of action possible?

Seems to be a lot to learn about project managment, risk managment, escalation and prioritizing from this case.
Especially as there seems to be a pattern where stuff gets fucked up and you Jon saves the day by doing all the work yourself. I think your boss has all the reasons in the world to be afraid of you leaving as the organization seems to compensate for poor managment by «throwing jon hours» onto the problem.
For his and all others sake, the good thing is that when someone really good leaves a company it often leaves a void and others may raise up to the ocation and shine.
Or the product, customer, apartment or company may dimish (not so good of corse)...

Anyway - are you sure this product beeing developed is so important that it’s worth all you freetime and possible your health? Based on how it’s been managed it does not seem to be that important to you bosses...

These are all very valid questions, Tek...


The sort that would be easier to answer at length over a glass of wine or a couple of good coffees, or even a beer...

There is the matter of performance reviews, and the potential impact on my closing situation when leaving on retirement- in good standing, there are special programs I am "enrolled" in because of my GG status which will pay out over the following 4 years from my departure, and it is not my desire to jeopardize that.

Also, I have a couple of colleagues I've been working with a long time for which this program is very important to their ability to do their jobs, and be successful in key segments. One of them is the gentleman (from Croatia) who was not able to work with me after all, and for which a collection of ongoing collaboration and activities has been my way of mentoring him- I brought him into our company in 2008, and feel some responsibility. It is a balancing act of considerations, and achieving what is needed in spite of my manager not complying with our HR processes or management expectations (which in private discussions he indicated basically that he wants to do things his way, not the company way) will leave me in the end with more personal satisfaction, and more leverage, if a rather ugly summer.

With regards to my last manager, who was the department director at that time, a similar situation evolved, and as I always cross my t's and dot my i's, when push came to shove, he was shoved out of the company.

I'm not looking for that end result- I would rather see an evolution of behavior on the part of the manager, because he affects the whole team, all of which I've had a hand in their hiring process. So think of me as being like a grumpy father Hen at this time (yes, that's a contradiction but the other alternative might be "Grumpy Cat").

[TEK]

I’m sure a longer discussion about this topic (and many others) over a couple of glasses would be very interesting!
Really hope it all sorts out the best possible way. Just make sure to take care of yourself, and set aside enough time for your new girlfriend

[Dave Bullet]

OT: I often find, it's not that my work is exceptional, but the standard of others is below what I think should be expected. I'm just an average guy who takes pride in his work and does an average job. Everyone is capable and should be doing the same. The fact they don't makes me seem like I stand out, when in fact I think they just need to step up to an acceptable professional standard.

[JonMarsh]

OT: I often find, it's not that my work is exceptional, but the standard of others is below what I think should be expected. I'm just an average guy who takes pride in his work and does an average job. Everyone is capable and should be doing the same. The fact they don't makes me seem like I stand out, when in fact I think they just need to step up to an acceptable professional standard.

You sound like you're reading my mind, Dave... but I bet there are a lot of folks on HT Guide that look at things the same way- it's part of why we're here.

There are many times I think I've only had the opportunity to go as far as I have with this company because so many other people just haven't made the effort they should have.

[JonMarsh]

When you can't buy 1-1/2" BB ply, you make it

I need some 1-1/2" BB ply for the test baffles for test enclosures on the Left Coast for finalizing crossover design and checking things out before the handover to Steve...

It's a shame, but the only thing close to that is the 1-3/8" maple Piano pin block ply, which is very fine stuff (see Kurosawa thread) but way too dear in price for this test box. So the only thing to do is to make it...


And to think Steve wonders why slow work takes time on the Left Coast...

[Steve Manning]

I need some 1-1/2" BB ply for the test baffles for test enclosures on the Left Coast for finalizing crossover design and checking things out before the handover to Steve...

It's a shame, but the only thing close to that is the 1-3/8" maple Piano pin block ply, which is very fine stuff (see Kurosawa thread) but way too dear in price for this test box. So the only thing to do is to make it...


And to think Steve wonders why slow work takes time on the Left Coast...



[ATTACH=CONFIG]29434[/ATTACH]

I tried talking him into some of this lovely stuff ..... it comes in thicknesses up to 3". He didn't like the ~$3K per sheet price however. 8O

[JonMarsh]

I think he's talking about the panzerholzen or something- it's a special laminate made for armored cars, primarily.

So if you gotta stop bullets without hauling around a ton of metal, it's for you!

Yeah, I'm a cheap skate when building test enclosures, though not cheap enough to shop HD plywood.

[Steve Manning]

I think he's talking about the panzerholzen or something- it's a special laminate made for armored cars, primarily.

So if you gotta stop bullets without hauling around a ton of metal, it's for you!

Yeah, I'm a cheap skate when building test enclosures, though not cheap enough to shop HD plywood.

Nope, Panzerholz is cheap compared to this stuff ..... this is Richlite. https://richlite.com/

[JonMarsh]

Ah, yeah... the stuff Gibson is using for some fretboards now, given they can't get ebony very easily...


Speaking of Panzerholz, you must be right about it being cheap, they're now even trying to sell phonograph cartridges made of it... of course, it doesn't take much per cartridge..

[cochinada]

Has any of you guys ever considered maybe building a speaker out of solid gold or even rhodium? After all you could build a fancy mold made of Panzerholz or Richlite.

[wolf_teeth]

There's always DIY-laminated HDF-ply, as I've done. I will tell you though- the power tools will laugh at you when you go to cut it.
Attached is 4x 1" thick (8x 1/8" layers) slabs clamped together for sanding to the same dimension, and not completely finished sanding as some tool marks are still present.

And yes- this has been the most difficult material I've worked with.
Wolf

[Evil Twin]

Does not look like fun....

[Steve Manning]

There's always DIY-laminated HDF-ply, as I've done. I will tell you though- the power tools will laugh at you when you go to cut it.
Attached is 4x 1" thick (8x 1/8" layers) slabs clamped together for sanding to the same dimension, and not completely finished sanding as some tool marks are still present.

And yes- this has been the most difficult material I've worked with.
Wolf

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29451[/ATTACH]

Now that would be time consuming, though rather solid when your done.

[wolf_teeth]

Yes- I have a lot of time in these. A full 2' x 4' 1" thick 8-ply was easily 50 pounds. To make the pair of boards, I troweled on the Titebond between layers to get coverage, then laid on the next piece and kept going, alternating rough/smooth sides to keep bow at a minimum. I had a clamped straight edge on one end using a 2' x 4' sheet of MDF as the clamping surface while drying. The perimeter was clamped, and large 25# weights placed in the middle to push it down. I do have a slight bit of bow to attend to yet, but that is fixable. It took just shy of a gallon of Titebond to make the 2 boards. At ~$6/sheet, multiplied by 16, and add a gallon of TB, and that is the cost of the material for me.

The slabs will flank the middle like this:


It's not unlike the Nimbus or Aurora from Vapor, except the fact that this has more layers and is non-curved. The central portion is a mix of HDF and 1/4" ply underlayment for a total of 45 pieces between the outer pair of plywood layers.

Time consuming, and not for everyone.
Wolf

[Steve Manning]

Yes- I have a lot of time in these. A full 2' x 4' 1" thick 8-ply was easily 50 pounds. To make the pair of boards, I troweled on the Titebond between layers to get coverage, then laid on the next piece and kept going, alternating rough/smooth sides to keep bow at a minimum. I had a clamped straight edge on one end using a 2' x 4' sheet of MDF as the clamping surface while drying. The perimeter was clamped, and large 25# weights placed in the middle to push it down. I do have a slight bit of bow to attend to yet, but that is fixable. It took just shy of a gallon of Titebond to make the 2 boards. At ~$6/sheet, multiplied by 16, and add a gallon of TB, and that is the cost of the material for me.

The slabs will flank the middle like this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29462[/ATTACH]

It's not unlike the Nimbus or Aurora from Vapor, except the fact that this has more layers and is non-curved. The central portion is a mix of HDF and 1/4" ply underlayment for a total of 45 pieces between the outer pair of plywood layers.

Time consuming, and not for everyone.
Wolf

Very nice Wolf. I did some playing around with some slightly thicker HDF for a test for a stand design. Kind of a proof of concept ..... just because you can draw it doesn't always means you can make it. :W Only 4 layers and it certainly is a solid mass when your done.

[JonMarsh]

Up for testing soon...

It's near the front of the queue....

















I have to finish a primary test baffle first...

[Bear]

I'd love to see how this compares to the SB26ADC in one of Brandon's (Augerpro) waveguides. They have similar sensitivity, but the SB26 is a 4 ohm part.

[JonMarsh]

Slow work takes time...

Who would believe the fastest way to get setup for testing a waveguide is a small sub enclosure?







Binding post plate ready to mount, might be able to find time to test Thursday....

[JonMarsh]

Finished putting it together for test..

A new binding post plate and some RTV to do the job... testing on Thursday.






Who ever heard of testing a tweeter waveguide in a subwoofer cabinet? Clearly a sign of desperation... non-removable back, so a few dots of RTV to hold the wave-guide in place.

[Steve Manning]

To follow up on an earlier post by Jon .... We turn some renderings into reality.










The new router bit worked out well for the chamfers.

[TEK]

Nice!
What do you plan on doing regarding paint?
Type, color, production metod - and will you do it or outsource it?

[Steve Manning]

Nice!
What do you plan on doing regarding paint?
Type, color, production metod - and will you do it or outsource it?

Thanks TEK.

Finish is going to be a waterborne tinted lacquer, comes out looking like paint, at least for mdf. If one were to go with Baltic birch or bamboo you would use a clear finish. I'm looking at a light grey for the bulk of things with black for the spacers. I'll be spraying it myself.

Now, the intent is to sell the machined parts and let the customer do the assembly and finishing themselves. Though for those interested finishing will be available.

[technodanvan]

Any chance for a pic from the rear? Looks like you have an area flattened out somewhat for an input plate?

Also - I think your email server is down or something. I tried to get back to you earlier but I keep getting an error.

[Steve Manning]

Any chance for a pic from the rear? Looks like you have an area flattened out somewhat for an input plate?

Also - I think your email server is down or something. I tried to get back to you earlier but I keep getting an error.

Here you go Danny




Playing around with name/binding post plate.



As an FYI the largest size can have a flat area large enough for a plate amp .... If one wanted to go with a powered bass section.


Not sure what was up with my email, I've been getting stuff today.

[technodanvan]

Looks real nice Steve. How are you making the plates? Someone local with an etching machine of some sort?

You're using threaded rod to assemble this, are you using inserts in the top panel? Did you cut a slot in the rod on the bottom so you can use a flat screwdriver to bring everything down, or some other system to get it all tight together?

Just re-sent the email, we'll see how it goes. Bit rumbly out here this morning!

[Steve Manning]

Looks real nice Steve. How are you making the plates? Someone local with an etching machine of some sort?

You're using threaded rod to assemble this, are you using inserts in the top panel? Did you cut a slot in the rod on the bottom so you can use a flat screwdriver to bring everything down, or some other system to get it all tight together?

Just re-sent the email, we'll see how it goes. Bit rumbly out here this morning!

Thanks ..... No I made the plates myself on the CNC. That was the first one, I made a few more that I tweaked a few things for better results.

There are inserts all over the place in these ..... I should own stock in EZ Lock.

[scottvalentin]

Wow guys - I have been absent a bit from this board, and man what I missed!! This is excellent stuff!! Looking forward to those tweeter and WG test results Jon! Also good to hear you have picked a retirement window, even if the in-between is looking pretty full.

[dwk]

Definitely interesting and inspiring work that I'll continue to watch with interest. I have a small 6040 cnc, and of course one of the first main projects is to use it to build a bigger CNC :-). I'm in progress on a 4'x3' envelope build, and a 'statement' speaker project is definitely a motivating factor. I'm hoping to do something in the Sonus Faber Elipsa/Stradivari style, so definitely have a bit of design work ahead of me.

[JonMarsh]

Definitely interesting and inspiring work that I'll continue to watch with interest. I have a small 6040 cnc, and of course one of the first main projects is to use it to build a bigger CNC :-). I'm in progress on a 4'x3' envelope build, and a 'statement' speaker project is definitely a motivating factor. I'm hoping to do something in the Sonus Faber Elipsa/Stradivari style, so definitely have a bit of design work ahead of me.

Yeah, but that's going to be a lot of FUN design work ahead of you!

:T

[JonMarsh]

I'm still putting together some basic test cabs- have a new batch of crossover parts that should arrive today- 2nd pass on the crossover, with higher precision time offset data, and some tweaks to the design concept. Should be looking good- we'll find out. And testing two driver layouts. There's some other "different" things going on in these test cabinets we'll tell you about later if they work out.

Slow work takes time...




Ugly at this stage, but they will be sanded and painted when finished, (probably!) nice enough for workshop speakers.

[Dave Bullet]

@Jon - I'm interested in your voicing procedure and whether you have a target on-axis or power response that sounds pleasing to you across your test music (and what that looks like)... and how long it takes? It took me ages to voice my 3-ways to a point I liked (maybe I am using voicing as an excuse to cover up planning and design errors :-). If I was selling speakers, I'd be paranoid about getting the best out of them and ensuring satisfaction for any who bought them. Can't please them all must still apply.... Anyway, like many here, I'm following your progress with interest.

[JonMarsh]

@Jon - I'm interested in your voicing procedure and whether you have a target on-axis or power response that sounds pleasing to you across your test music (and what that looks like)... and how long it takes? It took me ages to voice my 3-ways to a point I liked (maybe I am using voicing as an excuse to cover up planning and design errors :-). If I was selling speakers, I'd be paranoid about getting the best out of them and ensuring satisfaction for any who bought them. Can't please them all must still apply.... Anyway, like many here, I'm following your progress with interest.

There are many thoughts about this- basically I agree that power response is just as important as axial response- and more difficult to manage.

A big factor often neglected is room setup- with conventional speakers and even most dipoles, your best off doing a Cardas room setup - neglect that and a lot goes out the window- you're listening to your room as much as the speaker.

But someone who made a big impression on me was Sigfried Linkwitz and the thoughts he had on that after one of his last upgrades to the Orion dipole design, and figuring out why he wasn't happy with it still. It came down to a fundamental voice choice about your design target- flat, or something else?


He did a fair amount of best practice research as well as his own investigation- saved me a lot of time!

So I "borrowed" the concept and designed an inline filter to do the same thing- it's described in this thread:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43337-Report-back-on-stereo-speaker-voicing-investigation&highlight=Voicing+module

When Ergo was in the US on business and had a chance to drop by and give the Wavecor Ardent's a listen at a close friend of mine from work, those filters were installed in Jens's system- and we told Ergo about it ahead of time.

I think he liked what he heard, because he went back home and experimented with it- here's a quote from his comments:

"What I hear as a difference is much more than I expected. One would of course expect a bit of a change in sound balance, but what I experience is something more. Somehow the in a soundfield something 'clicks' to place. Without the mod especially with complex music the imaging tended to smear and the depth layering was not quite good. With this voicing curve both of these aspects change. I experience better imaging and depth even with double bass etc. I tried this cautiously multiple times and with different time intervals spent on either setting. I am in end confident enough to say that, yes - I do hear and like this setting a lot.
A good sign is also that it is all in all very hard to remove the setting and I end up listening long just for fun each time as it sounds so good.
Anyhow. I share my thoughts first via e-mail. "

I also agree with observation that this curve allows or even encourages to turn up the volume. Seems to sound especially good with higher volumes.

Higher volumes, as in one where the playback level is close to the original sound level.


Anyway, I suggest reading the thread if you haven't before, or maybe going back and resisting it.

For this current effort, I've got a test article that can use one switch and go back and forth between "flat" and "Voiced". Those will get sent back to Steve once I have a stereo pair built and tested.



Flat




Voiced





My preference would be just to go with the voiced mode, I think, but Steve owns this, and he's the one to make the call on what his preference is.

[JonMarsh]

BTW, Steve, I had a much longer post in progress earlier but lost it, discussing power response and off axis measurements and how Kimmo’s VituixCAD makes it easy to address those points and analyze quickly what the power response actually looks like for a significant forward angle. For anyone interested in speaker measurement and design, I really recommend looking at the VituixCAD manual, and trying working with the software. I had two copies of the paid version before he made it freeware/donation ware, and I have donated to him recently because of what I perceive as value and will again soon due to some capabilities recently uncovered. I have no idea how hold he is or where he got the experience for writing that software, but he’s a first rate guy!

:T

And in my continuing role as Captain Obvious, it's a really great idea to take a look at any driver you're considering with multi-axis measurements (say, in 10 degree increments from 0 to 60 degrees) and process and import into VituixCAD and assess both the nominal SPL response PLUS the total power response- you can catch some funny behavior of drivers and identity issues with the cone dispersion pattern that need to be taken into account when choosing crossover frequencies. I've found this to be especially true for paper cone drivers with conventional geometries, but it's worth employing for any and all drivers.

Of course, I must warn you, this can lead to hair loss... the more you know, the pickier and more frustrated you may get, even doing things like measuring $400 tweeters... can result in a lot of personal hair pulling! :roll:

[Steve Manning]

As a preemptive measure to the hair pulling, you could always do the Yul Brynner look.

[JonMarsh]

As a preemptive measure to the hair pulling, you could always do the Yul Brynner look.

Not quite ready to go there, but some days it is tempting...