Time for some Ansonica - a new design for Jagman's theater

[cjd]

If you're adding a dome, you can pick up a bit more on the top end with a slightly smaller tweeter.

For a mid I'd honestly be crazy tempted by the RS100T-8 paired to perhaps a 20mm, though which? Not sure. Vifa OX20SC00 perhaps. On the other hand, even a SB29RDCN (diff version than in the Ansonica) and something like the RS100T-8 would be super and allow shallower slopes, plenty of room to overlap.

Not enough of the 3/4" domes really intrigue me right now. Perhaps they should.

[Dark Regent]

I had also been looking at the RS75, but like the RS100, does it have a problem with power handling (30W) when paired with the SB29 and the Anarchy?

[agrippa]

I had also been looking at the RS75, but like the RS100, does it have a problem with power handling (30W) when paired with the SB29 and the Anarchy?

No....

[johngalt47]

Dimensions for design with slot port?

Chris,
Do you have the dimensions of the version with the slot port?

[cjd]

Chris,
Do you have the dimensions of the version with the slot port?

Roughly the same. Depends on material thickness so you can do the math if you're worried. In the end it's nominal change for the probable, .1L between slot and round. So many little things like bracing cutout scheme And crossover parts chosen...

Mine has double thick top and bottom so is 1.5" taller.

[Greybeard191]

A thank you post...

Got my set of Ansonica's up and running today.

1. sourced crossover components, tweeters, terminals from Solen, and the Anarchy's and ports from Exodus/CSS, as I live in Canada and UPS brokerage fees blow chunks up here.
2. Did a roundover rather than a chamfer on all relevant edges (wanted a softer look to cabinet)
3. plinth (only slightly larger than speaker) for base
4. made cabinet slightly deeper to recover volume lost due to slightly thicker laminated walls (still 9" wide)
5. Used 3" flared port, required bend to get 18" length
6. Crossover is in base, under port, took some fiddling to maintain correct inductor layout and clear the "descending" port (got lower near back of cabinet). Had to zap a couple of the larger inductors in place in the cabinet in order to get board through port hole.

Only had a few hours of listening so far, but very clean, good extension, very easy to listen to. Requires some distance to properly "sum" (e.g. sounds much better 10-12 feet away or more).

Just wanted to say thanks, first venture into a build with this complex a crossover or cabinet for me. I'm very pleased, wife slightly less so as she thinks they're still too big. She does like the "look" and sound though.

GB

[SpeakerGuy]

None to consider are consistently and readily available. These probably would have used one otherwise.

C

Do these often go out of stock?

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/horn-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tbcd/gb-dxt-h1499-tweeter/

[cjd]

No idea. Possibly not.

I doubt I'd find that listenable - I tend to have issues with the peaks in the metal dome Seas tweeters, for whatever reason.

C

[jagman]

Well. Better late than never. Life circumstances changed and my project got delayed (forever it seems) but now I'm back on track. Between three Ansonica's, a pair of the TM variants and 6 Marsala's, I cut 119 holes this weekend. Recessing the speakers was a pain in the butt... But that is probably due to the router bits I have. Each outer speaker hole required 5 passes with the router.... 219 swipes total. First time using a router, too. And I only made a couple non-vital mistakes that were easily fixed. OK so I have a question. For the braces I put in several holes with the router. There are 86 in total. The question is, should I round them over with a 1/4" bit? That would be a lot of work but if it helps sonically I'll do it. What about the back of the speaker hole that the Ansonica goes through. Should that be rounded over, too?

[technodanvan]

I think the reason most people round over braces is mostly just due to aesthetics of the parts as they are put together. Depending on how often you'll be picking the parts up it might be easier on your hands too. If you have a router table then I'd probably do it. If not, the only person who will know is you.

The back of the speaker holes should be chamfered. Troels did a nice little study on the effects:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/chamfer.htm

You can use a 45 degree chamfer bit to good effect. A lot of people have started using coving bits to cut out a little more meat. You might need to avoid cutting where the screw will go, especially if you intend to use T-nuts or Hurricane nuts. I posted this in another thread, but you can kind of see what I did. I know there are other examples on this site....somewhere.

Note that it isn't necessary to do for any closed-back driver, so it'll just be for the Anarchys.

[jagman]

Wow =-O! That's pretty involved but looks awesome. Do you think hurricane nuts are needed with the Anarchy's?

[---k---]

No, you do not need to round over the braces.
No hurricane nuts are not needed. For drivers, I've used the screws from PE, drywall screws (don't work as well), and most recently fancy square drive wood screws from the woodworking store (these are also recommended by JonMarsh). Bottom line, get a screw that looks nice, fits the hole properly and has a flat back.

Also, I would highly recommend completing one of your smaller speakers first, learning from your mistakes and then finishing the bigger speakers. Keep us posted. :T

[technodanvan]

Concur with what Ryan said, the hurricane nuts can be a real PITA sometimes and realistically we don't take our speakers apart too terribly often once they're done, right?

The main reason I use the hurricane nuts on the above was because I wanted a specific bolt head that I couldn't find in wood screw form. Note that you also see all of the nuts countersunk to some degree or another - this is only because the bolts I wanted were pretty expensive (or completely unavailable) at longer lengths.

Just use wood screws, it's easier.

[jagman]

Great advice. Thank you!

[jagman]

it's a full 18mm deep 45° chamfer except down by the port so it didnt end up with a razor edge there. no diffraction reasons to have it at all but i preferred the look with it.

Does this mean the chamfer is purely cosmetic? I thought it was necessary. I'd prefer to go without since laminating the enclosures will be much easier without.

[technodanvan]

Does this mean the chamfer is purely cosmetic? I thought it was necessary. I'd prefer to go without since laminating the enclosures will be much easier without.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, I'm pretty sure the chamfer he is talking about is on the vertical outer edge of the baffle, not the inside of the baffle behind the speaker drivers. If you look close at the picture on this page the angle starts at the top of the speaker and extends about 2/3rds of the way down.

As far as I can tell he seems to imply that it is not a functional chamfer (in the quote you grabbed), so I would 'assume' that it would work as intended if you chose to opt for a different look. He does allude to improved diffraction characteristics from a roundover during the testing phase I believe, but that would get goofy down by the slot port too - especially if you're veneering!

All that said, he does chamfer out some of the material behind the woofers as you can see in the post below.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?35601-Time-for-some-Ansonica-a-new-design-for-Jagman-s-theater&p=496662&viewfull=1#post496662

[jagman]

it's a full 18mm deep 45° chamfer except down by the port so it didnt end up with a razor edge there. no diffraction reasons to have it at all but i preferred the look with it.

I think it does help with diffraction but the difference is small. Hopefully Chris can give us his input. I prefer to go with the slot port.

[jagman]

A thank you post...

Got my set of Ansonica's up and running today.

1. sourced crossover components, tweeters, terminals from Solen, and the Anarchy's and ports from Exodus/CSS, as I live in Canada and UPS brokerage fees blow chunks up here.
2. Did a roundover rather than a chamfer on all relevant edges (wanted a softer look to cabinet)
3. plinth (only slightly larger than speaker) for base
4. made cabinet slightly deeper to recover volume lost due to slightly thicker laminated walls (still 9" wide)
5. Used 3" flared port, required bend to get 18" length
6. Crossover is in base, under port, took some fiddling to maintain correct inductor layout and clear the "descending" port (got lower near back of cabinet). Had to zap a couple of the larger inductors in place in the cabinet in order to get board through port hole.

Only had a few hours of listening so far, but very clean, good extension, very easy to listen to. Requires some distance to properly "sum" (e.g. sounds much better 10-12 feet away or more).

Just wanted to say thanks, first venture into a build with this complex a crossover or cabinet for me. I'm very pleased, wife slightly less so as she thinks they're still too big. She does like the "look" and sound though.

GB

Pics please! It would be nice to see your "softer" Ansonica :-) .

[---k---]

Only had a few hours of listening so far, but very clean, good extension, very easy to listen to. Requires some distance to properly "sum" (e.g. sounds much better 10-12 feet away or more).

GB

That surprises me. I've heard CJD's, and I wasn't sitting that far back, but I wasn't doing critical listening either. I can see 6' back, but not 12'. Hopefully CJD will weigh in.

[cjd]

The baffle chamfer up by the mid-woofers and tweeter (esp) mitigate diffraction induced peaks/dips - probably audible with the right piece and the opportunity to compare both.

Summing - play with toe-in. Double-check wiring polarity also, as that can sound "ok" but be most obvious in not summing correctly.

It's really hard to know for sure from afar.

[jagman]

I've cut all of the pieces and holes for all the speakers. I've designed and built a pair of the Ansonica TM variants. Pics of the dry fit open and closed are below.





I decided to do a slot port since the port needed was crazy long and it would be easier to match the look of the Ansonica's. WinISD said a ported box for a single Anarchy driver should have a volume of 21.21 liters and and a 1x7.5" rectangular port should be 40" to have the tuned frequency of the port 24Hz. I designed an enclosure that kept the same baffle width, height, angle, speaker spacing (but just the tweeter and top mid) as the Ansonica but significantly less volume. In order to have the port 40" long it had to be folded several times but I managed to make the net volume of the enclosure just a hare over 21.21 liters... with the hare over being to compensate for the volume of the mid and crossover components. The port exits the bottom of the enclosure through the double thick baffle. You can see in the photo that the exit hole has not been cut yet. I still need to do the chamfer as well as the 45' trim of the baffle behind the Anarchy's so they have more room to breathe. Of course I need to do a roundover of the hole at the end of the port once cut and I believe I should soften the turns of the port.

I do have a few concerns and questions. I read late last night that having a slot port next the the outer edge of the enclosure affects the apparent length of the port, but I cannot figure out how. That of course makes me concerned about the length of the port. I also calculated the port length in WinISD but I didn't change anything regarding fill for the enclosure. Does WinISD take fill into account or do I need to make changes? What do you recommend for fill and/or lining the cabinets? Lastly, I have concerns about how many folds are in the port and whether that is a poor design. I would think trimming the inner corners of the port at 45' angles and adding 45' trim at the outer corners to facilitate air flow would help... of course keeping in mind that the distance along the center line needs to remain 40".

Lastly, now is the time to make changes of course since nothing is glued together. This is a learning process so please don't hold back in critiquing the design. Cutting a few extra pieces of MDF and redesigning at this point is easy. Scrapping an entire enclosure after glue up would be much more difficult (and depressing). I appreciate any and all advice!

[cjd]

Details on your tuning?

For a single Anarchy I get a 3" dia port (or equivalent) to be 12.6" long in a 30L box.

[jagman]

I uploaded the Anarchy file with it's T/S specs to WinISD Alpha. I chose one driver and a vented box with a tuning frequency of 24Hz and said I wanted an extended bass shelf. I put in the volume of 1881 cubic inches (30.82 Liters). I put in a square port 1" x 7.5". It says the port length is 29.84" for the frequency response to be -6dB at the tuning frequency. For a 3" round port, it says the length should be 28.06". Yesterday, it automatically recommended a box size of 21.21 Liters with a 1" x 7.5" port 40" long. I also double checked all the units so there weren't any stupid mistakes but I didn't find any. I'm not sure why the difference.

[cjd]

That's a HUGE port. That's why.

Go half inch.

C

[jagman]

I can see that cutting the port from 1" to 0.5" cuts the length in half. I also wonder if a shorter but very thin port might be more problematic than one that is longer but has more turns? I don't know the answer. Considering the volume of air potentially pushed by these drivers, would such a thin port make noise?

[cjd]

With a single driver you'll be fine. I used 1" for the pair and it was fine. But, there is something amiss with the numbers still, because I get 12.6" for a 3" port (.94" x 7.5" slot) ...

[jagman]

OK. Let me rephrase. Since I already cut the MDF for the long port and it happens to beautifully fit in the enclosure size I wanted from the beginning, is there anything that is sonically bad about the long 1" port with all the folds? If it's just that a shorter port occupies less space then I'll stick with what I have already done... provided the numbers are correct.

More importantly, I do not know or understand why my calculations are different. I download the T/S specs from the Home Theater Shack. Might those numbers be different than what you are using?

Edit: I double checked all the numbers and they were entered into WinISD correctly. With the same T/S specs I modeled the Ansonica and I got a port length of 18.5" with a 1x7.5" port. I also I verified the T/S specs on the DIY Cable website. I'm not sure why ISD is predicting a different length than what you are getting. Could you please try running the numbers again?

[PMazz]

I'm coming up with 23 liters and 25Hz tuning with a slot length of 37.75". The 3" port would be 35.5". This is using WinSpeakerz and calculating a -6dB bass shelf.

For your 21.21 liters and 24Hz tuning it gives me a slot port of 44.75" with a -7dB bass shelf.

[Hdale85]

If you round over all the sharp corners and put in wedges in the corners it should be ok, it helps smooth out the turns.

[cjd]

I'm using unibox. I do not know why the numbers are so different. That worries me because, if my numbers are wrong, I have an unknown number of designs affected...

[jagman]

The -6dB shelf has a 1x7" port length of 39.6" tuned to 25.23Hz with a 21.21 liter enclosure according to WinISD if flared on both ends.

[jagman]

Thanks CJD, hdale and pmazz

[---k---]

I seem to remember the difference between Unibox and WinISD always being the assumptions for stuffing. Unibox lets you choose, where as WinISD has a set value. Same with the box leakyness. If you make those assumption match, they are the same. At least that is what I remember from 3 or 4 years ago when I last used WinISD.

[jagman]

What assumptions does WinISD make regarding stuffing?

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[---k---]

Not sure any more. I want to say that it assumes the equivalent to Unibox's medium fill. I bet CJD was using heavy fill. It has really been a long time since I modeled a driver. sad.

[cjd]

Not using heavy fill I don't think... can double check

[jagman]

Time for some really nOOb questions.

I'm putting together my shopping cart at PE and Madsound. But I'm having some issues.

For caps, I cannot find 14uF 1% poly caps, 7.5uF 1% poly caps or 4.5uF 1% poly caps at PE or Madisound. If you would, please point me to any other reputable shops to buy these products.

For inductors, PE doesn't have 0.39mH 14ga air core Erse, but they have 0.40mH 14ga ones... will that work? PE doesn't have 0.91mH 18ga air core Erse, but they have 0.90mH 18ga ones... will that work? PE doesn't have any 16ga or 20ga inductors. Madisound has a Sidewinder 0.25 mH Air Core Inductor 16 AWG and a Madisound 0.5 mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor... will they work? Would it be best to keep shopping for Erse inductors?

For resistors, PE doesn't have Mills 12 Ohm resistors. Madisound has Mundorf 12 ohm Metal Oxide Film Resistors. Will they work? It's not there Supreme line... and they only cost $2.50. That makes me concerned about quality. I also cannot find a 60 Ohm resistor at either PE or Madisound. This again is where another recommended shop would be very useful.

For putting the crossovers together, what glue do you recommend using? Do you have a recommended type of solder? I planned on getting 1/4" plywood for the board to put the crossovers on... is there something better? Any recommendations would be highly appreciated.

For the cabinet, what do you think of PE's "Sonic Barrier" and "Acousti-Stuff" polyfill? Are they worth getting? For the Sonic Barrier, what thickness is recommended? And related to a previous post, how heavy should the cabinets be filled with polyfill?

[jagman]

Please remember I'm doing 3 Ansonica's, 2 of the TM variants and 6 of the Marsala's. The crossover bill is nearly $1k and climbing!

[technodanvan]

Please remember I'm doing 3 Ansonica's, 2 of the TM variants and 6 of the Marsala's. The crossover bill is nearly $1k and climbing!

I've always had great luck with Mensicus, might want to give them a shot for some of your hard to find parts. Not promising anything, they're probably out if PE and Madi are - but it's worth trying. I'd guess there isn't a single resistor used to fulfill a 60 ohm requirement, it's probably a combination of a few. They just add straight together if wired in series, so 6 10 ohm resistors or 5 12 ohm resistors would get you there.

I've been using Automotive Goop for my last set of crossovers and mounted them on 1/4" Baltic Birch. Seems sturdy enough for a small crossover, at least. *shrugs* Any Goop should work - I selected the automotive kind as it specified a larger range of usable temperatures. Isn't a big deal to me, but I figured I might need it for something not crossover-related someday.

Note that most folks recommend attaching the resistors in such a way that they aren't connected (i.e glued) to other components. I only did it this way as bench tests showed they wouldn't get warm in this particular design.



I really like the 3/4" Sonic Barrier with the 'constrained layer', or whatever they call it. It's expensive though, so unless Chris calls for it in his design I wouldn't necessarily use it. There are plenty of alternatives that work well and cost much less - I just like this stuff because it's easy to work with and doesn't require spraying any nasty glues.

[jagman]

Thanks for the advice :-D

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[cjd]

Ok, my Unibox is all messed up. I just ran these numbers in Jeff B's response modeler without changing any of the defaults other than turning off the active sections:

Max safe excursion levels allllll the way down at 75W - 3"x18" port, that's ~24Hz tuning


Max safe excursion levels all the way down at 30W - 3"x32" port. 2.5"x20", 2"x12", ~27Hz tuning


That suggests your tuning was exactly right, so who knows.

[cjd]

I used the 1.25" 3 layer Sonic barrier for this. The 3/4" is also quite good, but the 3 layer stuff is worth the buck given the frequency extension these mid-woofers deliver. I did not find polyfill necessary.

Did I call for 1% caps?! I usually specify in the BOM if it's important. I'll often put the money into some cap upgrades on the tweeter side of things, but 1% all around? They're *almost* always within that anyhow, even at the basic PE or Bennic poly caps (budget end.) PE has some other lines at great prices that I've heard may be worth a look.

Inductors - the key is impedance matching - within reason. .9 vs .91? No sweat. .2ohm vs .4ohm? You'll lose a little something, especially for the series inductors.

I don't see a 60ohm resistor anywhere in the BOM.... I do see an optional 60uF capacitor for the impedance compensation (flattens it out) on the TM variant...

I like using 1/4" birch ply for crossover boards, though it splinters.

I use a basic silver solder, but that's really just a binder - well twisted joints is the key.

I use zip-ties to hold my crossovers together.

[jagman]

CJD...look at the end of post 44. You call for an optional 60ohm resistor.

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[technodanvan]

I was wondering about that when you mentioned it. I see it now too, must be a typo?

[jagman]

So I'm still having trouble sourcing the 4.5uF capacitors needed in the TM variants. They are not on the PE, Madisound or Meniscus websites. The only other thing I cannot find is the 60 ohm resistor... which might be a typo.

nOOb alert... are Solen caps better than the Dayton caps? I would think so but think it better to ask first. I want to do these right so I'm willing to spend money where it makes a difference. What caps would realistically be appropriate for these speakers.

Lastly, with the 1.25" sonic barrier foam. Should all exterior walls be lined with it? If so I'll do it but dang that stuff is expensive!

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