Introducing the SSA-WG

[sdl2112]

It certainly could be. I’m assuming it’s room reflections as it’s not there closer in. The room they are in is smaller than I would like so a lot of pretty high energy reflections. I will move them to another room temporarily and see how they measure.

[jim1961]

Could that in room mode / peak @ 550Hz be the issue with the bass? I mean, a peak or trough elsewhere can mask or make other areas seem deficient when they may be fine. That measures out to ~ 61cm wavelength. What could that be from? (assuming it is mainly midrange output contributing at that frequency?)

It certainly could be. I’m assuming it’s room reflections as it’s not there closer in. The room they are in is smaller than I would like so a lot of pretty high energy reflections. I will move them to another room temporarily and see how they measure.

Yep, it is almost certainly high energy room reflections. I haven't seen ETC or Decay curves so I dont know what that picture looks like.

Dave, your certainly right to bring up dips and peaks in the response. You can chase your tail trying to make what you hear sound better by adjusting the direct response, where often the real culprit is the power response.


I realize room treatment is a far off thought for you right now Scott, but just for future reference, using psycho-acoustics as a guide, our mind integrates all of the energy in the first 35-50ms into one snap shot. While the direct response is the most significant contribution, the later arrivals certainly can color what we hear and indeed cause those peaks and valleys in your frequency response.


As we discussed before, properly integrated subwoofer(s) can do wonders for achieving a flat bass response.

[jim1961]

I can't say I am hearing issues in that range. That said this is the first time I've had speakers in this room and everything is new. I will say I am really impressed with the Be tweeter and ceramic mid. No metal or break up sounds that I can detect, very articulate, smooth and clean. My biggest issue is getting smooth bass. A lot depends on the recording. Some I say I don't know how it could sound better, others not so much. Listened to Humble Pie - I walk on Gilded Splinters and it sounded a little sterile...what do expect live, yet still sounded pretty good.

Hmmmm. I wouldn't have thought a live performance would be described that way.

[jim1961]

Dave, your speaker has higher directivity between 2.5 - 6kHz. Perhaps you should try how a 2-3dB Q=1 notch around 1kHz sounds? Easiest way to test it is to use some eq plugin with Foobar or other player software. When you get nice balance, copy that in your passive in-line filter!

Speaker positioning and reflection damping/diffusing will also change balance a little, reverberant soundfield is quite important and measurement systems/graphics might look a bit funny when your ears tell it sounds right! Trust your ears! When the loudspeaker has basically good crossovers, low distortion and it goes low enough, it is best to play with (in-line) eq to suit your taste. When you move speakers, listening chair of change furniture, it is easy to adjust eq again. This is one reason why I like dsp-xo so much!

A more simple solution might be to toe the speakers out some. Listen to them a bit off-axis if those frequencies seem too hot.

Or, just turn down the tweeters some.

[sdl2112]

Lots of good information Jim. My description of Humble Pie may not have been described well. At the time it seemed midrange heavy. I’ve made several tweaks since, room placement, bass LCR notch change, port tuning and the shelf circuit. I’ll have to go back and listen again.

[sdl2112]

Progress report

I have been making miscellaneous adjustments with good results. When I first set the speakers up I instantly heard the good qualities of the new speaker but as time passed I started hearing the faults. I thought the imaging could be better and there was low bass missing...etc. I was getting a little concerned with the confined space if I could achieve the sound I was hoping for. Well things are progressing quite well and last night and today they have never sounded better. All from relatively small adjustments. I encourage everyone to keep trying changes, you may be supersized at how much better you can make it sound. Another step is obviously make sure your set up is correct. Checking polarity and channel balance and a Stereophile test disk.

Anyway here's how the room is currently set up. It's about 13.5' wide, 10' high where the speakers are then opens up to the entry way for a total of 20' in depth and 13' ceiling in that area. It also opens up to the living room and another hallway.


The adjustments I have in place now are the single 3.2db shelf (no low end boost) that starts around 1kHz, I raised the port tuning from 24.2Hz to 26.6Hz, changed the LRC filter on the woofers. The original LRC was 10mh+10ohm+560uf. This provided a shallower roll-off and kept the minimum impedance to about 3ohms. The new one is 10mh+10ohm+280uf, this elevated the low end a little also while decreasing the 100-200Hz range just a tad, the consequence was a little lower impedance.

The simulated LRC for with the 560uf (red), 280uf (green) and none (blue) is shown below.


I also tried stuffing the ports to see the sealed response (will show measurements in next post). I also have the option of removing the neo bucking magnets on the woofers that will raise the Qtc of the woofers if I choose to go that route. The sealed version sounds good but at this time I'm preferring the ported as it just adds a little more low end without any negative effects like being boomy. Time will tell. Different room placement may be optimal for one over the other.

Here's simulated comparison of the sealed (with neo magnet), ported with 24.2Hz tuning, 26.6Hz tuning and for comparison the Wavecore Ardent. This isn't really going to tell you how they sound but I thought it was worthy for comparison.

[sdl2112]

Probably the biggest improvement was room placement. I initially tried following the Cardas guide using the golden ratios. I started with the ratio from the back wall to side wall of 1.618. I think it was something like 58" from the back wall and 36" from the side wall. This left 7.5' between the speakers so I set up a 7.5' equilateral triangle to the listening position. After some listening the imaging wasn't too good, the central image was weak. The bass was thin too. I ran some sine sweeps and realized I was sitting in a null around 30-40Hz, I could hear things vibrating but I wasn't hearing (feeling) much.The guide for my room comes out approx 72" from the rear wall and 44" from the side wall. I tried that and will show the results below. These boundary surfaces and room nodes are quite complicated. My room is certainly not just a rectangle either so expect experimentation. I (for now) have them positioned 38" from the rear wall and 44" from the side wall with a 15deg toe in. Going from the 36" to 44" from the side wall drastically improved the imaging. Now the speakers are 74" apart and about 95" to the listener.

One other thing I did was to measure both speakers simultaneously. I hadn't tried that before and wasn't sure how it would sum. Well as it turn out, quite well but the distance to each speaker has be precisely the same, in my case 95.75".

So here are the left (red), right (green) in their new locations and adjustments. No room treatment with 250ms gating and 1/3 oct. Decreasing to 1/12 oct smoothing doesn't change that much just fuzzier.


Next is simultaneous left and right.


Now the new position versus the one 72" from the back wall....guess which is which.


Now finally ported (red), sealed (green).


I then listened to Michael Hedges and wow..I am becoming more and more happy, now imaging is much improved. Bass is much more full and not as lumpy. The dynamics are impressive. With smaller speakers I would at times turn it up during the quieter passages knowing I better hurry up and turn it down before it gets too loud. Not with these. I have been startled several times with these and not becoming harsh either.

[Zvu]

I really like to see when things begin to fall into place. Ported version measures great in your last pic.

Since you chose your crossover frequencies wisely i wouldn't be afraid to try to toe them in more and give it a listen.

So much fun at this stage

[Juhazi]

I have always wondered why people pull their speakers so far from front wall, here we see what it makes. Small recession in response around 2-300Hz is "natural" in my opinion and is caused by floor and roof cancellations. We hear it defferently - if I eq it smoother sound will get boomy&muddy and male voice sounds strange. Besides listening, we need measurements and experiments to find causal treatment!

The room and your speakers are very pretty! Congratulations!

[ergo]

Very good looking measurement results indeed. It takes a bit of re-calibration though with the Soundeasy graphs as they are much wider range and thus push the graph to a narrower vertical space. Makes almost any graph look good at first glance... Your's do look good even when eyeballing for the details and keeping the scaling in mind.

You don't happen to have measurements from ready crossover with midrange inverted? Would be nice to compare the phase behavior in your and my Wavecor Ardent design.

[BobEllis]

Cardas placement is incredible. Spend some time listening to see what you'll be missing if you have to go back to practical placement. My girlfriend was away so I threw the furniture other than my seat against the back wall and pulled out to the recommended spots. The vertical imaging was so startling I left it set up that way to demonstrate when my GF returned. Using Chesky's binaural headphone demo recordings, when they said the shaker went from the floor to 8' the image went from a foot off the floor to 7' off the floor. After returning the speakers to a livable position, we listened to the same track and the shaker appeared to sit at tweeter height and not move. Most music was much more engaging in the Cardas position.

[jim1961]

Cardas placement is incredible. Spend some time listening to see what you'll be missing if you have to go back to practical placement. My girlfriend was away so I threw the furniture other than my seat against the back wall and pulled out to the recommended spots. The vertical imaging was so startling I left it set up that way to demonstrate when my GF returned. Using Chesky's binaural headphone demo recordings, when they said the shaker went from the floor to 8' the image went from a foot off the floor to 7' off the floor. After returning the speakers to a livable position, we listened to the same track and the shaker appeared to sit at tweeter height and not move. Most music was much more engaging in the Cardas position.

I have no doubt it does in some situations. But there are way too many variables in actual listening rooms to say or think it is optimal every time (not saying your are making this claim).

Especially when looking at the bass response, rooms have doors, or openings to other rooms, or are not perfect rectangles or are non-symmetrical in some fashion, and so on.

As far as the speaker distance from the front wall (someone mentioned it), it varies a peak/dip grouping in the bass region from the reflection created. The greater that distance, the lower the frequencies affected. My speakers are about 8' out creating a dip at about 35hz. Half that distance, double the frequency. Actual results will be modified by all the phases of all the bass reflections in the room. But the front wall reflection has more juice to it given its greater energy due to its shorter travel distance. Hereon lies the benefits of a sub to work in that dip region and smooth out other stuff.

[sdl2112]

Yes, those demo recordings can be very helpful and revealing. There's a few tracks I use just for that purpose.

As far as measurements with the mid wired in reverse, I measured it but it was hard to get decent results. At least for the woofer to midrange. For it to sum properly it needs to be close to 2M, less than that the null is lower in frequency. At 2M there is too much reflective energy to see the null. Below is about 1M. It matches the simulated pretty well.

[Juhazi]

Looking at step response is easier way to set inter-driver delay with dsp controlled speakers. Step is not so sensitive to reflections.

WM xo can be analyzed by making ground plane measurements, put the mic on the floor and tilt the speaker or put it sideways. Bass response gets boosted compared to freestanding situation.

http://www.mh-audio.nl/Groundplane.asp

[sdl2112]

New updates

It's been awhile since I've had any updates. I've been getting to know the speakers and the environment (the room) and how they work together. I had the speakers in the formal dining room and it was rather small, I really didn't want them there but they just didn't fit in my living room. When I had a smaller TV and stand mount speakers it worked. As the speakers and TV got bigger...to somewhat of a surprise...it didn't work.

My only option was to place the TV above the fireplace. I just didn't want that. My mantel is 5ft high and I even set it on the mantel and just DID NOT like it. Given my options I slowly began to accept the idea. I even walked through new unfinished homes and they were ALL pre-wired for it above the mantel. I knew of articulating TV mounts and decided to give it a try. After some time I am fine with it. I'll show the details in the next post. I now have everything in one room and it's sounding very good.

To log my progress here are the changes I made. It's always fun to see how things progress.

So here's the speaker in the living room before the TV was relocated.


Moving the TV meant that my shelving to the left could be used for all my equipment...great! Plenty of room to grow. I had to make new shelves. I had the paint matched and believe it or not Baltic Birch was the cheapest solution due to the width being 49.5". It comes in 5x5ft sheets vs 4x8ft of standard plywood. Anyway like the original three shelve they are 1.5" thick and weigh 35lbs each.

Shelves in progress. Even made a "rotisserie" with screws and wood blocks to make painting easy...well sort of. I'm glad that's over. Also I had to wait 30days before I could place equipment on it because of the latex paint dry time.




Now with the shelves in place.:T

[sdl2112]

TV Mount

Okay...so moving the TV. Like I said I'm fine with the MantelMount solution and I suggest anyone give it a try if you are in a similar circumstance. The mantelmount PN is MM700. I also plan on mounting a soundbar as the TV speakers are crap and I don't want to run it through the main speakers. I'm waiting for the new Definitive Technology Studio Slim to come out. It was due this February, now delayed to April. To me it's the best sounding slim soundbar I have heard, though just in the stores.

Here's couple pics.

Up mount


Down mount


Side mechanism


While I'm at it... I modified my Adcom GFP-750 a while back to include a blue LED on the volume knob. It's great!...now I can see the volume position from my listening position. The little indent is useless from that distance. Just drilled a hole in the knob and wired to one of the other LEDs where it turns on when un-muted.

[sdl2112]

Crossovers

I finally finished (maybe) the crossovers yesterday. After several tweaks from listening and measuring I have the final version. I'll have measurements upcoming. I also have been playing around with REW and it's pretty neat to compare to soundeasy. For now I'm just listening again as its been awhile. It has some new components. All the resistors are Mills MRA-12, they are the original version with silver end caps and made in the US. Sonic Craft has NOS (New Old Stock) so when they are gone they are gone. I doubt they make any difference but they are not much more expensive so what the heck....I used them.

Also during prototype testing I paid attention to power dissipation. After some particular jam sessions I would touch the resistors. The most power seems to be on the RLC on the bass circuit, the all pass impedance compensation is pretty high and the series resistor to the midrange. I elevated the higher power resistors with solder pin strips, worked great. Troels uses them a lot although not like I've done. I don't like seeing resistors mounted on top of other components with adhesive. I made the mistake of mounting resistors to wood and covering them up with insulation in my Modula XTs and almost caught fire, I undersized them as well. Always keep insulation away from the crossover as a general rule. They need to breath.

I used Jantzen Alumen caps for the tweeter and a foil inductor for the series midrange. Probably can't hear the inductor difference but they look cool. And they are very solid and inert, maybe helps in that regard.

Here's all the crossovers and it has to go inside the cabinet. I have a place for them all, hope all goes well. I don't particularly want them inside but airspace volume was at a premium so I didn't want a portion of the cabinet outside to house the crossover. I also didn't want them in an external box as it would be huge. Hey if Magico can mount them inside un-potted so can I.


All crossovers


Mid on left (not including the four 22uf caps), Tweeter on right.


Bass


Impedance compensation and bass RLC


Resistor mounting detail

[cochinada]

Very ingenious but where are you going to place the soundbar so it doesn't get covered by the tv?

[sdl2112]

The soundbar mounts directly to the bottom of the TV and moves with it. It’s only 1.75” high. It also has a wireless subwoofer.

https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/studio-slim

[ergo]

Nice solution with the TV and the moving arm. Gets the TV to a much more livable position when needed.

Xover work looks great. I might have turned some of the coils on their sides to get the axes pointing to different directions, but then again you probably have enough physical spacing that they do not influence each other too bad.
I brought back a big punch of ClarityCap's that were on sale on Madisound from my trip to US last week. So I'll get to play the same game in coming weeks with my Ardent Xovers

[Steve Manning]

Nice work as always Scott. Cool idea on the LED by the way.:T

[sdl2112]

Thanks Steve and ergo. I think I’m okay with the inductor orientation. I played around with inducing a signal in one with a function generator and measuring the voltage induced in another. At these distances it was minimal. I look forward to your Ardent crossovers.

[Dave Bullet]

Attention to detail is superb. You've gone to all the effort to design a top notch system with great drivers... no point letting that down in the crossover! I always like to think in the back of my mind... whomever inherits these, I want to them to be impressed that quality and attention to detail were used throughout.

I also intent to put a paper copy of my design and measurements in one of my cabinets for future reference.

[sdl2112]

Very nice of you to say Dave. When the project is done I want to be able to say no corners were cut...within reason. When I’m gone people will know something is up when they try to move them. They are seriously heavy.��

Pretty neat idea of yours creating a time capsule.

[sdl2112]

Finished!!!

I think I'm finally finished!!! I have been listening with the crossovers outside the cabinet for quite some time but got around to installing them and the base skirt. Any response changes will be with the shelving circuit in front of the amp.

What a journey, they turned out better then I expected and that's hard to do. But of course it leads to wanting more...I'm looking at music servers and likely a sub or two but that's a discussion for another time. They came in at 175lbs each, a little less then I estimated but still I'm glad to not be moving them around any more.

Here's pics of the final assembly.


Luckily the crossovers fit without too much trouble


Bases attached


I used WBT binding post partly because they had a large opening with a set screw. I can still separate woofer, mid and tweeter circuits for testing pretty easily.

[sdl2112]

Here's more pics.

[Steve Manning]

Beautiful job Scott .... they turned out killer!

[sdl2112]

Thanks Steve, I’m looking forward on the progress of your new adventure...looking great!

[ergo]

Very nice looking end result and a good idea to meet all xover separately at back of the terminal in case there is need to retest

This reminds me that I should do the same with my Ardents. It's been a year now running the Xovers aside of speakers on floor (the tweeter and mid ones got rebuilt with upgraded part half way through though). Kinda surprised that my wife has let me get away with it for this long. It does not really help the vacuuming of the floor etc.

[Zvu]

It is heresy to vacuum audiophile dust. It is worth 100 times its weight in gold.

[sdl2112]

Thanks all...yes vacuuming was the first thing I did. I don't think it was the audiophile type because it sounds better now:W. Imaging seems more defined. All the connections are solid now, before I still had alligator clips making some connections and the speakers were on furniture sliders. Probably psychological but sounds a little better to me.

[Zvu]

Audiophile dust collects over time and it is very precise indicator of owners satisfaction with his system. I wish you lots of it

Congratulations, once more, on success derived from your hard work and enthusiasm.

[cochinada]

Beautiful job Scott .... they turned out killer!

Indeed! I love the bamboo.

BTW, about the music server, are you considering a DIY solution? I'm very happy with mine. It is totally quiet and it holds above 4000 CD's at the turn of a button.

[Dave Bullet]

They look first class. Right at home in a boutique / high end audio store. Inside they are probably built better too but not many realise this.

If you are interested in a great little DIY solution for serving your ripped CD collection - I can highly recommend a Raspberry Pi if you are half handy at command line O/S work. Mine has a dynamic EQ that applies to brutal masters to make them enjoyable, then gets out of the way with my better albums. It uses a browser or an app on your phone / tablet and multiple users can manipulate playlists concurrently etc... I program the EQ I want when listening to an album (button push on the phone) and the Pi stores it for next time that album is played. Works really well. Storage is SSD attached to the Pi's USB (self powered). Quite compact - about the size of a coaster and about 3 inches high. The Pi is running a piggy back DAC from IQAudio. I'm very happy with the sound quality (but I have no other DAC to compare with

[Bear]

This is literally an inspiring build. And thanks for the tip on the MantelMount. I've added that to my list of tricks for the next house.

Congratulations on completing an impressive piece of work!

[scottvalentin]

Amazing set of speakers and equally amazing process to get here. Kudos to you

[sdl2112]

I appreciate all the positive comments. It really means a lot from the fine people who participate on this forum.

As far as a music server, I’m not sure I want to go the diy route....I’m looking for easy of use and sound quality of course. Top of my list right now is the Innous Zenith but I’m having a hard time justifying that much cash.

[Steve Manning]

Have you looked at the Aurender servers. Good reviews and lots of options to pick from.

[sdl2112]

Thanks Steve, they are on my short list but potentially even more expensive...need to do a little more research.

[technodanvan]

To chime in with everyone else, these look absolutely gorgeous! To the extent the plans for my Ardents have yet again changed. I had originally intended on doing a white-painted cab with the bamboo front, but the look of yours have convinced me solid bamboo is the way to go.