Introducing the SSA-WG

[Steve Manning]

Hey Scott .... you said you had some void issues with your lbl as well. Are any of them in visible locations and if so, have you come to terms with how you are going to fix them?

[meb46]

sdl2112 - How are you finding working with Bamboo? Cutting/Gluing/Weight? What's its resilience to marking/damaging during construction?

[sdl2112]

Hey Scott .... you said you had some void issues with your lbl as well. Are any of them in visible locations and if so, have you come to terms with how you are going to fix them?

Steve,

I haven't done final assembly or the edge treatment yet (flush trim and round over) but I expect I will need to correct a few voids. I did choose the best pieces that would be exposed. I will first try epoxy...maybe mixed with bamboo sawdust. I'll probably come up with some other ideas. They used the epoxy sawdust technique over at PE tech-talk and it looks great.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/68408-tips-for-filling-wood-voids-working-with-bamboo

[sdl2112]

sdl2112 - How are you finding working with Bamboo? Cutting/Gluing/Weight? What's its resilience to marking/damaging during construction?

Mike,

I originally heard bamboo was somewhat hard to work with. I think the key is to use good sharp tools which I have. I had no issues working with it. It splinters a lot less then Baltic birch. Machines real well. One thing you will see reading through these threads is there are a few consistency issues with voids. Is it between vendors or batches...I'm not sure. When I first was looking into bamboo I had a vendor send me a sample pack of like a dozen different configurations...carbonized, blonde, 1ply, 3ply..etc and not one void. When I ordered two 48" x 96" x 1" sheets there were some voids but not bad, certainly not for the way I was using it. Ergo's was much worse.

It is very hard so marking and damaging during construction hasn't been an issue yet. As with anything getting this heavy I will need to start protecting the corners. Gluing has been fine, I just use Titebond 3. The density is about the same as MDF. Below is a properties comparison.

If you will be CNCing these it would be best to discuss this with Steve and Ergo as they just went through that process.

Rgds,

Scott

http://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/Bamboo-Plywood/Medium-Density-Fiberboard-MDF/

[ergo]

Minerva boxes were the first project for me to work with Bamboo. In summary I really like it as a material even though I did have some quality issues. If one would use these boards so that the inner layer is not visible, then there would be no issues. Also my boards were very good quality on both sides - it was the inner layers that had some voids.

CNC machining of this turned out superb all in all. I have not got equally good quality cuts wit BBply. Latter always needs more sanding of the cuts and edges are not as sharp.
When I did very casual table saw cuts (cross grain cuts) just to get some material split for CNC bed, then I did have some splintering, but that can probably be avoided with taping the material etc.

https://flic.kr/s/aHskump5WP

PS. On CNC I did have to look where the starting point was for the cutter entry into the material. If it happened to start at a sharp corner and the grain would be in specific angle to cut it did sometimes rip out a small piece of bamboo grain. If I modified the start point to be somewhere in middle of straight cuts I did not have this issue.

[Steve Manning]

Steve,

I haven't done final assembly or the edge treatment yet (flush trim and round over) but I expect I will need to correct a few voids. I did choose the best pieces that would be exposed. I will first try epoxy...maybe mixed with bamboo sawdust. I'll probably come up with some other ideas. They used the epoxy sawdust technique over at PE tech-talk and it looks great.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ng-with-bamboo

Thanks Scott ..... I fixed a few chip outs with CA glue and small pieces of bamboo and sawdust and I worked fairly well. I'm seeing it all depends on where the damage is and how close a match your patch material is is color, as to how well it b lends. I guess that's true with any wood really.

[Steve Manning]

Hey Mike ....... to add to the machining. As Scott mentioned, sharp bits are a must, bad thing, they don't stay that way long. Carbide is a must for any duration and spiral compression bits where used for the cnc. The guy that did the machining ran at 400 ipm when he machined our stuff.

As Ergo mentioned, I had tear out issues as well, depending on grain direction, in most cases going with the grain.

I have not any table saw cutting at this point so I can't speak to that.

Scott mentioned glue ...... I found the end grain, even though it's dense, to absorb glue squeeze out, staining the wood fibers. If your painting your cabinets again, no big deal, if your going to go natural, you have a lot of sanding to do. :cry:

As a safety note for your cnc guys, edges are razor sharp after machining, wear gloves when handling until you hit the edge with a little sandpaper.

As well as the void issues I have also found that the sheet thickness varies a little. Each of the four cabinets after glue up are slightly different in width. Width varied a 1/16", I discovered this when I cut out the driver holes and had to shim the routing fixture I made to fit the cabinet width. This jives with what the cnc guy found as well. What would be a through cut on one piece, did not quite make it on another. This add to part clean up time.

Steve

[sdl2112]

I finally glued up the cabinets. It all went together well but I can only imagine the difficulty of the more complicated builds. Next step will be to flush trim the sides and top then round them over.

I also made a gasket between the base and speaker from craft foam.

Glued one speaker at a time


Bottom view


Top view


Gasket for the base


Close up view

[jim1961]

Ever closer to completion

[sdl2112]

Yet still so far away...

[Steve Manning]

Yet still so far away...

I share your pain Scott .......

[JonMarsh]

Looking very nice, Scott- solid progress! :T

[sdl2112]

I haven't been able to work on these much until recently. I started preparing to flush trim and round-over the edges. I sanded the top and revealed a few problem spots. I sanded through to a hole that almost looks burnt. Probably some insect...? Anyway I used a wood chisel to notch out a square then made a patch. Actually easier than I though it was going to be.

Originally that wasn't there until I started sanding


Cut out the problem areas


Made a patch with the table saw


Patch with PVA glue and sanded....done. :T

[sdl2112]

Next I flush trimmed and rounded over the edges. Last time I did this I got shavings everywhere. The standard router hose attachment on the top is useless with this type routing. I came up with a hose adapter from Woodcraft that I clamped to the router base plate. It works great. No shavings escaped.

Flush trim with hose attachment


Detailed view


Next was rounding over the edges. I wanted a 1" round-over but that bit would not fit in the Dewalt DW621. I improvised by making a spacer with a 3-3/4" hole.


Here's a view from the bottom. The Whiteside bit worked great. I went with three passes to get to the full 1" round-over. The DW621 had no problems.


Here's the result.

[sdl2112]

I then worked on the cosmetic base skirts, rounding over the edges. I wouldn't recommend doing like I show here but it worked fine. I just clamped the router assembly to the table saw fence box tube.

Mini router table set-up.


Base skirts routed.


Next I routed the tops with 1/4" round-over.


Top detail.

[Steve Manning]

Nice update Scott ..... nice job on the patch ....... I've run across a few very similar looking areas. I think your right about it being bug related.

[JonMarsh]

Like your router dust collection! :T

[meb46]

Continuing to be impressed with this build... awesome work! Itching to get into my own session of Bamboo dust creation, in the interim I will await with envy!

[sdl2112]

I must say these are coming along very nice. In a word they are solid. I will use this dust collection concept going forward. Next is a lot of sanding and void filling. After that I will likely install drivers before applying a finish and take measurements for prototype cross-over development. It will be interesting to see how close these measurements are to the test box measurements.

[sdl2112]

Some not so interesting work...

...yet work that must be done.

I addressed voids exposed on the round-overs. It's really not that bad. I used System Three two part epoxy that I had on hand. It's gap filling and does not shrink. Color match is good enough...I used it as is, although you can dye it if needed.

While I had a batch made I filled every little hairline crack or imperfection.





Here's the result of one of the largest holes and a crack filled.

[sdl2112]

Easy does it...

While prepping the base skirt I was concerned of weakening the corner joints now that material was removed during the round-over process. I elected to add wood corner joists for added strength. This required chamfering the base corners.

Again I used the two part epoxy.


Clamp in place detail


Chamfer base


Trial fitment

[JonMarsh]

Two part epoxy- a man after my own heart! Nice looking work, Scott- you're very detail oriented, and that's a great thing! :T

[JonMarsh]

...yet work that must be done.

I addressed voids exposed on the round-overs. It's really not that bad. I used System Three two part epoxy that I had on hand. It's gap filling and does not shrink. Color match is good enough...I used it as is, although you can dye it if needed.

While I had a batch made I filled every little hairline crack or imperfection.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25881[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25882[/ATTACH]

Here's the result of one of the largest holes and a crack filled.
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Yeah, the three layer LBL can require a lot of detail work- I must have gotten VERY lucky with the batch I bought for the Isiris, as I didn't have any of the void issues with it that you and Steve have had with your current projects.

That's another reason I like the 3/4" by 11-1/2" X 48" boards I can get from WoodWorker's Source- they are pretty much perfect. Now, if they just weren't so perfectly expensive, too!

[Steve Manning]

Looking good Scott ....... the one nice thing with the way you built yours is that you have less end grain exposed, aka, less voids to fill.

I wonder how the stuff is that Mike got for his build is ..... it looked pretty good from the pictures.

[sdl2112]

Two part epoxy- a man after my own heart! Nice looking work, Scott- you're very detail oriented, and that's a great thing! :T

Detailed oriented can be a blessing and a curse...sometimes it's hard to balance...especially at work. :E

[sdl2112]

Looking good Scott ....... the one nice thing with the way you built yours is that you have less end grain exposed, aka, less voids to fill.

I wonder how the stuff is that Mike got for his build is ..... it looked pretty good from the pictures.

Thanks Steve...I was wondering about Mike's LBL too. It does look good.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks Steve...I was wondering about Mike's LBL too. It does look good.

He also gets it for a lot cheaper where he's at than what we pay as well.

[sdl2112]

Interesting results using System Three Rot Fix. It's a two part epoxy intended to help repair rotten wood. It's low viscosity, penetrates and seals the wood so I thought I would use it to seal and strengthen MDF. It comes with a mixing bottle. The directions on the box say only mix what you will use in 30 min. I mixed it in the bottle but poured some into a Dixie cup and brushed a test piece. It has the viscosity similar to vegetable oil. The MDF soaked it right up. I set the test piece on top of the Dixie cup...a few minutes later I picked up the cup with the test piece on top and it was incredibly hot. I took the test piece off the top and it was smoking or out-gassing something. It had to be hotter than boiling water. It then set to a hard block of epoxy within minutes.

There was no mention of this on the box. On the individual bottles it says to only mix what you will use in 15min (not 30) and says it will heat up in the bottle. Heat up...are you kidding.:E The product works great but I don't know if I could recommend it.

The T88 product never heated at all, although I only made very small batches....anyone else run into this with different type epoxies?

Anyway here's the coated MDF base skirts.

[Steve Manning]

Interesting results using System Three Rot Fix. It's a two part epoxy intended to help repair rotten wood. It's low viscosity, penetrates and seals the wood so I thought I would use it to seal and strengthen MDF. It comes with a mixing bottle. The directions on the box say only mix what you will use in 30 min. I mixed it in the bottle but poured some into a Dixie cup and brushed a test piece. It has the viscosity similar to vegetable oil. The MDF soaked it right up. I set the test piece on top of the Dixie cup...a few minutes later I picked up the cup with the test piece on top and it was incredibly hot. I took the test piece off the top and it was smoking or out-gassing something. It had to be hotter than boiling water. It then set to a hard block of epoxy within minutes.

There was no mention of this on the box. On the individual bottles it says to only mix what you will use in 15min (not 30) and says it will heat up in the bottle. Heat up...are you kidding.:E The product works great but I don't know if I could recommend it.

The T88 product never heated at all, although I only made very small batches....anyone else run into this with different type epoxies?

Anyway here's the coated MDF base skirts.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25894[/ATTACH]

I have heard that being a concern ..... typically the more you mix up the more heat it can generate. It's good you were there keeping an eye on things.

[meb46]

Thus far, I haven't noticed any voids in my LBL Bamboo... will keep you posted on this as I cut up more sheets.

[CraigJ]

I set the test piece on top of the Dixie cup...a few minutes later I picked up the cup with the test piece on top and it was incredibly hot. I took the test piece off the top and it was smoking or out-gassing something. It had to be hotter than boiling water. It then set to a hard block of epoxy within minutes.

There was no mention of this on the box. On the individual bottles it says to only mix what you will use in 15min (not 30) and says it will heat up in the bottle. Heat up...are you kidding.:E The product works great but I don't know if I could recommend it.

The T88 product never heated at all, although I only made very small batches....anyone else run into this with different type epoxies?

I've used West System epoxy for several boat builds. If I put too much hardener in and mix on a warm day, the epoxy will eat the foam brush and melt the plastic cup used. Yes, I've even had a few batches smoke as well.8O

[sdl2112]

Thus far, I haven't noticed any voids in my LBL Bamboo... will keep you posted on this as I cut up more sheets.

Thanks...that is good. Keep us posted. I wish they had wood grades for Bamboo like for Baltic birch and other woods. That way you know what you are getting....

[sdl2112]

I've used West System epoxy for several boat builds. If I put too much hardener in and mix on a warm day, the epoxy will eat the foam brush and melt the plastic cup used. Yes, I've even had a few batches smoke as well.8O

Thanks Craig...good to know. I was just surprised as mine was only a few tablespoons. I think I read where some would place the mixture container in ice water to keep cool.

[JonMarsh]

What you describe is one heck of an exoteric reaction- never seen that with the standard stuff.

[sdl2112]

Here's an update on the base. It will be mostly hidden so I really just wanted to seal it. I had some General Finishes High Performance Satin leftover from a previous project so that is what I used. It really brushed on very smooth. Easy to apply a uniform coat without runs. I first sealed it with SealCoat then applied four coats to the top and bottom and eight coats to the sides. I didn't plan on perfection but they came out better then I expected. I lightly sanded with 320 grit after the first coat then 600 for the following ones. You just want to run you fingers over it it's so smooth.

Preparing for SealCoat


I applied the GF top coat indoors...no bad fumes. Not sure how many coats I have on at this point.


Outdoor pics...it really makes the Baltic birch shimmer.

[Face]

Pretty!

[Steve Manning]

Very nice Scott .... I had never used satin before the Minerva's, I've become really like the look.

[sdl2112]

Thanks...yes I like satin too...for gloss it has to be perfect. Even then I'm not sure I like it as much. If it's high gloss it's like hey...look at me...if it's satin it says...hey listen to me. :W

[JonMarsh]

Thanks...yes I like satin too...for gloss it has to be perfect. Even then I'm not sure I like it as much. If it's high gloss it's like hey...look at me...if it's satin it says...hey listen to me. :W

+1,000

Couldn't agree more, which is why the Isiris were satin, for example.

Your parts are looking great! :T

[sdl2112]

Thanks Jon...it's fun seeing how the parts turn out. I should have more updates this weekend.

[TEK]

Here's an update on the base. It will be mostly hidden so I really just wanted to seal it. I had some General Finishes High Performance Satin leftover from a previous project so that is what I used. It really brushed on very smooth. Easy to apply a uniform coat without runs. I first sealed it with SealCoat then applied four coats to the top and bottom and eight coats to the sides. I didn't plan on perfection but they came out better then I expected. I lightly sanded with 320 grit after the first coat then 600 for the following ones. You just want to run you fingers over it it's so smooth.

Preparing for SealCoat
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25975[/ATTACH]

I applied the GF top coat indoors...no bad fumes. Not sure how many coats I have on at this point.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25976[/ATTACH]

Outdoor pics...it really makes the Baltic birch shimmer.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25977[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25978[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25979[/ATTACH]

That's really looking good.
Getting that nice a finish just using foam brushes for sure makes one wonder if all that spray paint equipment and stuff is really worth it...

[sdl2112]

Thanks TEK....it crossed my mind too. I think I could do a whole cabinet with a brush....and...inside my house where it's nice and cool. I do think it would come out better by spraying though.

[TEK]

Thanks TEK....it crossed my mind too. I think I could do a whole cabinet with a brush....and...inside my house where it's nice and cool. I do think it would come out better by spraying though.

Yes, it probably would - right from the gun. But if you do some time with 1200-3000 grid and perhaps some polish (if you were going for hi-gloss) I'm wondering if you would be able to tell the difference.
I assume that it will depend quite a bit on shape of the surface. And if you have spray gun equipment and setup, it for sure will be faster for larger pieces - and probably less finish work to get it up to the final result.
But I'm really amazed about what kind of result you and others here are getting by using other means.

But it has a lot with what you apply to do. I painted a bed-side for my daughter with something that was supposed to be quite good paint - with a brush.
The result was terrible compared to what I get with my spray gun - but that was related to the paint or the painter. Anyway - I was for sure not able to get that paint to flow out when applying it, so it left a lot of brush marks.

[sdl2112]

Funny how projects evolve. I pretty much planned on just using SealCoat for the base when I saw I had GF HP leftover. I looked at the date and it was 3.5 yrs old...GF says it's good for min 1 yr. I expected it to be lumpy or rusted. It looked good...I tried it on a scrap piece and there you go...I applied to my base with good results.

That went so well I thought I would do the same with the base skirt. I have sprayed GF milk paint before and topped with GF HP with good results so I tried brushing the milk paint...I couldn't get it smooth...maybe on a flat horizontal surface but not for the skirt. I didn't want to bring out the sprayer just for that. Back to my original plan of rattle cans. We had a nice cool spring....but now it's summer, heat index is mid 100s every day. I sprayed the primer in my open garage and it started drying before it hit the surface.

So I thought...I could use a window fan for the garage now it's hot...I should have done that a long time ago. As an experiment I tried using the fan for a paint booth as well. Yes spray paint is flammable so I need to be careful. The fan uses a permanent split capacitor motor so no switching of the capacitor and it uses a totally enclosed motor. So I closed my garage last night with a fan blowing inside air to the garage. At 6 am this morning it was 79 deg and 51% humidity in the garage, outside it was 77 deg and 90% humidity. I opened a window on the far side of the house and used the house air as a reservoir for conditioned air. It worked great.

While I was at it I picked up a couple studio lights from the local camera shop (I only went there to look 8O). I was tired of the cheap reflectors from the big box stores. These use 50W LED lamps with a 5600K light temp and 4000 lumens....they are bright and awesome. All this for a couple bases...I never would have thought this a couple weeks ago. Anyway...sorry for the long winded story....here's some pics. :W

Here's the Air King window fan installed


Paint booth attached


Fine filter installed


I added a second "cheap" filter for a two stage filtering so I wouldn't need to replace the "expensive" one every use.


Lights...camera...action 8)

[sdl2112]

Now for the base skirt pics. I think the results came out about as well as can be expected from a rattle can.

Primer applied in open garage


Top coat applied. I will later spray a clear coat of satin or matte but I need to let these cure for a week or two since it's enamel.


Brought inside to cure.