My first project is a 4 way speaker...

[BobEllis]

+1 on Griot's Garage products.

[cochinada]

One is ready. I'll post better pictures during the day.

[cochinada]

Images

[BobEllis]

Looking great!

[meb46]

Joaquim - These are looking great. I assume you are past the worries of polishing now? I know it can be frustrating, and especially when you are after a high gloss look. I opted for a Matt Finish, and after much consideration, I am going to leave them as they are straight off the gun. I may one day polish them... but I know one very small slip up and they will need to go back to the spray booth. You can run in circles getting things perfect, only to send yourself back weeks and a lot of hard work down the toilet. I have noticed some shrinkage on mine around where the baffles meet the side panels, but as these are Matt, you have to really look for it... either that or my eyesight is failing I think my first step is to get them running, enjoy them and be confident I am going to be happy with them for a good period of time before I invest more time in polishing. Sound like a justified way of kicking the preverbial can down the road and not giving myself ulsers from worry of getting the perfect finish

[cochinada]

Thanks guys.

Well for me it was just a matter of waiting and waiting and then... more waiting. In total I'm waiting since end of April for just one speaker to be ready and even so the smaller cabinet (MTM) is not done yet as the drivers still don't fit after all the extra layers or prime, paint and lacquer. Now for my carpenter I believe this was a nightmare experience as all the things you mention happened to him and then some. :evil:

Although not all is perfect, generally I have to say that the difference from what they looked like before and now is simply huge. There are no more cracks and nasty irregular gaps and that alone is enough to make me happy. On top of that I think he did a pretty decent job with the polishing.

Soon I need to change my Avatar...

[Steve Manning]

Thanks guys.

Well for me it was just a matter of waiting and waiting and then... more waiting. In total I'm waiting since end of April for just one speaker to be ready and even so the smaller cabinet (MTM) is not done yet as the drivers still don't fit after all the extra layers or prime, paint and lacquer. Now for my carpenter I believe this was a nightmare experience as all the things you mention happened to him and then some. :evil:

Although not all is perfect, generally I have to say that the difference from what they looked like before and now is simply huge. There are no more cracks and nasty irregular gaps and that alone is enough to make me happy. On top of that I think he did a pretty decent job with the polishing.

Soon I need to change my Avatar...

I had the same issue with my 1071's when they painted ..... had to make a little sanding jig to remove the excess paint so the drivers would fit.

[5th element]

Looking great indeed! They'll be fingerprint magnets though!

[TEK]

It’s looking lovely!
Hope you get both and all the parts soon.
Guess you want to have them up and running, playing music again, soon.
Not sure what I would do of my Ardents were offline for such a long time.

[cochinada]

Indeed. It's been so long that I almost can't remember how they sound. About the fingertips it's true. They appear out of thin air...

[cochinada]

Hello my friends.
Some of you may wonder why I never posted pictures of my speakers after painting. Well the reason is that I have very bad news...

First of all I don't know what happened with my account in Photo-bucket as it doesn't recognize my user anymore so I'm afraid all the pictures I've posted before are gone. I apologize for that but I didn't know accounts could expire or be deleted just like that.

After 1 year and 3 months of waiting my carpenter/painter delivered me two of the three remaining boxes. To my horror and chock after a few days this is what happened to the smaller box... :cry:









This is the other one:

[Hdale85]

What the heck is going on in that last pic? Is the beffle vaporizing?

[cochinada]

What the heck is going on in that last pic? Is the beffle vaporizing?

Hum?

[ergo]

That's really pity that the bad luck keeps haunting you with these 'nice beasts'. Might it be the indoor climate difference between the carpenters place and your that would cause the layer to loose moisture too fast and peel off like that. In past we've had similar issues with gray neutral gray paper glued to a composite back board. As long as those remained in Estonia there were no problems. But we shipped some to Taiwan and the higher moisture level there caused them to ripple bad in just few days.

[cochinada]

Thanks ergo. Let me explain some details of this nightmare so far. Somewhere in May or June I think, he told me he had finished painting but when he tried to assemble the boxes they didn't fit anymore as the middle box, the one with the issue now, somehow had expanded about 4mm. Later he explained me that it caught some drops of water in his paint shop that came from a leak in the roof and this was probably the reason. Now, how unfortunate is that? Then he decided to let them dry for a very long period hoping it would shrink again and so it did after more than a month just sitting quietly. Of course this meant a new painting again. To make things more challenging the 1st painter quit and so did the new one after a while. I was waiting of course... Since August begun we had a heat wave here in Portugal with record breaking temperatures for about 5 consecutive days relentlessly above 44ºC or 111ºF. Now it is not so hot but still it's above 30ºC. In my house it's probably 26ºC to 28ºC but his paint shop is certainly hotter.

[5th element]

What the heck is going on in that last pic? Is the beffle vaporizing?

I think it's just reflections from the floor showing up near the bottom two upper bass drivers.

[Zvu]

I'm little bummed when i see as nice loudspeakers as this with so much issues regarding that last step - finish. You are very patient fellow.

I don't think that there is a solution that will work in long term in such high temperature and moist extremes and with cabinets that are built the way yours are. With so much joints there are just too many weak spots. I've watched guys here closing the wood by dipping it in some resin that is heat activated, and forcing the resin into the wood by vacuum. Then they'd put the wooden parts in an oven to activate the resin. Finished product looks like a brick and is quite stable.

Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fnxuxanhlA

If you find someone with large enough vacuum chamber and autoclave, anything is possible. Though that would require pealing of every layer of coating and filler.

[cochinada]

I think it's just reflections from the floor showing up near the bottom two upper bass drivers.

Yes. It is the reflex of my acoustic carpet.




Zvu, if I ever get the speakers ready they will never leave my home again except over my dead body.

[cochinada]

On the very same day my second speaker was assembled, and when I was about to test it my HTPC broke...
It took me a few weeks to get it running again but finally I get to listen to some music!

[ergo]

This is great! I'm sure we all hope for these speakers "to keep it together" literally and sing for many years to come.

[wkhanna]

little TV & BIG speakers.....
...this guy has his priorities right...:T

JK... lol....

beautiful work, & adding my hope for their long life.....

[5th element]

With the ridiculous number of man hours you've put into these, I do hope they continue to provide you with years of enjoyment!

[TEK]

cochinada:
As you are done, I guess you will start building 3 more sonyou get a full surround set!

[cochinada]

Thank you guys! This project took about three and a half Years to conclude, mostly because of the issues I had with the translam and the cracks that make me decide to paint them in the end. The whole painting process was literally a pain in the ass (not mine but my carpenter's). If I was to build a pair again (no TEK, I'm not contemplating building a surround set ), and knowing what I know now at my own expenses, I would build this using only HDF, thus avoiding all the cracks.

[Bear]

cochinada:
As you are done, I guess you will start building 3 more sonyou get a full surround set!

If he cuts a doorway in the back, he only needs one. It can surround him already!

[cochinada]

What do you make of this?

[Zvu]

Is that epoxy added afterwards ? It looks like too much glue to me and i opened quite a few tweeters.

[cochinada]

Is that epoxy added afterwards ? It looks like too much glue to me and i opened quite a few tweeters.

What epoxy? If you are referring to the white ring between the coil and the black fabric that was done by the manufacturer and I guess all of their tweeters have this. At least I know for sure that these models have it.

The thing I want to show is that wire in a bluish color that is shredded and actually broken. It's not very clear but I can't zoom more with my camera.

What I wonder is if that is something that can happen 'normally' or the result of poor manufacturer quality, e.g., material fatigue or something...

This is my 2nd pair of tweeters already. The 1st time one blew was because my amp caused a loud burst of noise but I also opened that tweeter and these two wires are still intact and there is connectivity between both terminals. Now, in this last case there was no abuse from the amp but still this happened and one of the wires is broken as I said and of course there is no connectivity whatsoever between both terminals.

I replaced the tweeter with the one from the 1st pair that was (is) still OK but I'm worried that this can happen also with the other one that is part of the same lot.

I was also thinking what if I assembled the suspension that looks still OK from the 1st tweeter 'blown' with the 'core' from this one with the broken wire? Do you think it would work and I would have a working tweeter?

[Zvu]

Yes, that's not clear from the pic but nevertheless that shouldn't happen. It is definitely glued by hand - that's how it looks when i do it with epoxy, which is why i don't use epoxy no more.

If lacquer from the wire was stripped by some violent method before tinning, that could happen - say scalpel or something similar. I used soldering pot. The temperature burns the lacquer and thin layer of tin remains on the wire ends.

There is a way to fix this. Use some old and cheap soldering iron. It should have very sharp tip. I used one that is very old and with outer heater, so i used sharpened nail as a tip. Regular tips don't last very long if used this way. Very carefully touch and scrape the place where lead wire is soldered to voice coil, trying not to touch the suspension. The heat will make the thin layer of epoxy to crumble. When you deattach the lead wire, unwind one circle from the voice coil. Now you have enough wire to make the connection good. Try to make it as good as factory connection. It sounds more scary than it really is but it is quite easy and doable if you are careful not to apply too much force. Parameters of the tweeter wont change at all. I've done this lots of times before with measurements before and after. The differences are in the domain of statistic error.

[cochinada]

Thanks Zvu but I certainly don't have the skills, the experience, the equipment, the eyesight or a steady hand to even try that. Those are a lot of missing requirements from my part.

I took a few more pictures moving gently the broken wire apart where now it is clearly obvious what happened. My friend had moved the wire before in an attempt to see if they made contact and that fooled me.

I will write an email to Transducer Lab to see what they say, because this is not the result of abusing a tweeter, unless I was mad to break the wire on purpose. I'm a bit mad but not that mad.

[Dave Bullet]

What is your crossover point / slope for the tweeter? Are you overdriving / overheating the voicecoil? For a 2nd tweeter to fail like that, assuming a reputable manufacturer, I'd put it down to too much power being fed.

[5th element]

Tweeter tinsel leads have been known to break from time to time and this is usually from over excursion. The TL tweeters have very healthy xmax so I would be surprised if this would be encountered during normal use.

The wire basically succumbs to metal fatigue and breaks.

From the second set of pictures it looks like the tinsel lead has completely sheared away.

From the first set of pictures I really have no idea what it is you're trying to show us. I wouldn't have thought that anything would have happened to the wire within the blue part.

[cochinada]

Please ignore the 1st set of pictures. I too was not sure what I was looking for and actually I think I took a picture of the wrong wire (my friend had moved the [broken] wire before in an attempt to see if they made contact and that fooled me.).

@Dave, there were no abuses. My room is small and I never hear to music very loud and even if I did I can't imagine it would cause a wire to break.
The 1st tweeter failed because of a problem with my amp. This time is a completely different situation. I'm with Mat and metal fatigue as the culprit. Reputable manufacturer or not we have to call it as it is. I've sent them an email this Sunday.

[Zvu]

I stopped using epoxy and similar hard glues because lead wire can (if it is low viscosity glue) absorb some of it. When the glue hardens the damage looks quite similar. Not overdriven but still snaps. I can't really say from the pic if that is the case but it can be checked with plastic tweezers. Pushing the contact wire should show that it is soft not rigid. I started using neopren based glues - they allow full movement even if partially absorbed.

[cochinada]

I stopped using epoxy and similar hard glues because lead wire can (if it is low viscosity glue) absorb some of it. When the glue hardens the damage looks quite similar. Not overdriven but still snaps. I can't really say from the pic if that is the case but it can be checked with plastic tweezers. Pushing the contact wire should show that it is soft not rigid. I started using neopren based glues - they allow full movement even if partially absorbed.

I wished Transducer Lab had done the same. I didn't receive any answer to my email of 16 of December so I wonder if the rumors that they went out of business are true or they simply ignored me.

I'm in a sort of predicament as I don't put much faith in the reliability of these tweeters anymore. I just removed the after market grills because the tweeter that I didn't replace started to make a noise like 'crrrrrrrrrr'. I almost sh*t my pants as I thought another one was kaput but somehow it has been playing without that noise without the grill. Could it be that the grill interferes magnetically with the voice coil, messing with the alignment and making it touch the plate occasionally?

Anyway I'm seriously considering replacing these tweeters with some much more available, reliable and with given proof. I'm done with small manufacturers that go out of business and don't have enough expression on the market.

If I go that route, I'm facing very tough challenges if I want to keep the MTM cabinet as it is and even bigger if I don't.

1) the hole for the Transducer Lab is very peculiar as it has an outer diameter of 120mm, an inner of 92mm and only 3,25mm deep, so finding a straight fit is mission impossible I dare to say. I could build an adapter provided that the new tweeter is smaller than 92mm plus the thickness of the adapter wall itself. The SB29BNC-C000-4 with 72mm comes to mind as one of the few that could fit (if we would exclude the most tiny tweeters out there).

2) it's a bit illogical to go with a smaller tweeter and don't take advantage of it by moving the mediums closer to each other. That bothers me to be honest.

The other option would be the most dramatic and expensive: build another pair of cabinets. It would allow me to chose freely for a tweeter though.

In order to be a good match, the new tweeter should have a sensitivity at least of 93dB or so and an Fs not too high (TL advertises 440Hz but I measured 531,6Hz - see figure below)). Very low distortion and good off-axis response are a must.



I appreciate your comments. What would you do in my place?

Happy New Year to all!

[Juhazi]

SBAcoustics, Satori and BlieSMA come to my mind. Didn't check dimensions though.
Gravesen and HifiCompass have measurements of these.

[roadrune]

How about T35C002? You can change the faceplate on it, so you can get one made that fit...

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=364:e0055-06-t35c002&catid=50&Itemid=360

[CADman_ks]

Your saga and journey has definitely been an inspiring tragedy to say the least, and I commend you for the work and effort that you've put in so far.

So, I'm no speaker expert by any means, but from an outsider looking in, these would be my thoughts/observations:

• Is the grill that you're using the one specific to the TL tweeter? If you're just using a generic grill, is it possible somehow that is causing the interference, and ultimate damage? It appears that the grill should stick on their magnetically, and if that's the case, I wouldn't think that should interfere with anything, especially if it was the actual TL grill made for the tweeter.

• Are you sure that you have your amp issues figured out, and you're not still overdriving the tweeters?

• If you're sure that you have the amp issue corrected, Meniscus in the US, still does have one pair left in stock. While I realize that this would be more money, and you're a little bit gun shy on them, I have to wonder if your amp issues ultimately is what made the second one go out as well, but not right away. I also realize that's going to probably cost you a fair amount to get them to your destination.
  
  

  https://meniscusaudio.com/product/transducer-lab-n26cr2-g/

  
  
  According to the Meniscus page, these are no longer being made, so I think that your post about not hearing from them will probably hold true.

If I were in your shoes, AND I was 100% sure that I had all of the electrical issues corrected, I would be tempted to try the one more pair of the TL tweeters, especially if I had spent the time, effort, and money that you've spent on these so far. Yes, you could find something that you could replace it with, but that may require a modification to your cabinets, and that would be the last thing that I would want to do, given the history that you've had with the cabs.

In the end, I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that you ultimately get this sorted out!!

[cochinada]

Hi guys.

Thank you for the suggestions and also to you CADman_ks for the words of encouragement. Indeed I couldn't use a better word than a saga...

I'm pretty confident that my electrical problems were sorted out. Just to refresh please take a look at my crossover and also the power dissipation chart calculated with VituixCAD



Tweeter is red and with pink noise, as Kimmo explains "Pink noise represent effective RMS spectrum of music signal. Typical corner frequency of pink spectrum is about 2 kHz, but significant variation exists within music genres and recordings. Initial value is 3 kHz."


Now, TL tweeter is rated for 95W maximum and I would say there is no way I can surpass this before going deaf and even so, my amp is not powerful enough (it is rated at about 125W @8 ohm).

This last pair was ordered from Meniscus and I had to pay a hefty price, mostly due to customs. But like I said, and thanks for the confirmation that they are not being manufactured anymore, I lost confidence in the brand and I will not by another pair.

Modifying or building new cabinets would indeed be a daunting task and I'm not sure if I'm prepared for that right now as it takes money and time. What I'm considering more and more is to build a custom plate instead of an adapter and replacing the original plate of one of the tweeter contenders. I know I would still have to change the crossover and take more measures again but that seems unavoidable. Right now I do fancy the Satori line as they are reputable, measure well and are much more cost effective than for instance Scan Speak.

[cochinada]

Hi guys.

Thank you for the suggestions and also to you CADman_ks for the words of encouragement. Indeed I couldn't use a better word than a saga...

I'm pretty confident that my electrical problems were sorted out. Just to refresh please take a look at my crossover and also the power dissipation chart calculated with VituixCAD




Now, TL tweeter is rated for 95W maximum and I would say there is no way I can surpass this before going deaf and even so, my amp is not powerful enough (it is rated at about 125W @8 ohm).

This last pair was ordered from Meniscus and I had to pay a hefty price, mostly due to customs. But like I said, and thanks for the confirmation that they are not being manufactured anymore, I lost confidence in the brand and I will not by another pair.

Modifying or building new cabinets would indeed be a daunting task and I'm not sure if I'm prepared for that right now as it takes money and time. What I'm considering more and more is to build a custom plate instead of an adapter and replacing the original plate of one of the tweeter contenders. I know I would still have to change the crossover and take more measures again but that seems unavoidable. Right now I do fancy the Satori line as they are reputable, measure well and are much more cost effective than for instance Scan Speak.

EDIT: I forgot to explain that the grills were bought from Meniscus and are specific for these tweeters so they said.

[Dave Bullet]

Now, TL tweeter is rated for 95W maximum and I would say there is no way I can surpass this before going deaf and even so, my amp is not powerful enough (it is rated at about 125W @8 ohm).

I do recall an old saying "powerful amplifiers rattle woofers, underpowered amplifiers blow tweeters". It's possible you clipped your amp causing high order harmonics to be produced in the treble region which pass as over-current I believe. But only you would know what level you were driving at the time and when the problem occurred.

[Dave Bullet]

I'm eyeing up this tasty Satori TW29RN dimpled dome fabric tweeter.

I haven't had a very good run with metal tweeters. I don't know if the extra "air" they produce is simply distortion or extra clarity, but the TW29RN (neodymium version) is Troel's favourite fabric dome. according to one of his Satori designs:

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/tweeters/ring-dome/satori-tw29rn-b/

The TW29RN is lower impedance and higher sensitivity so XO redesign will be required. I don't think the lower impedance will be a problem for you though, as I'm sure this occurs probably in your midbass section anyway where high current draw is required.

[cochinada]

I do recall an old saying "powerful amplifiers rattle woofers, underpowered amplifiers blow tweeters". It's possible you clipped your amp causing high order harmonics to be produced in the treble region which pass as over-current I believe. But only you would know what level you were driving at the time and when the problem occurred.

This might happen indeed with other amps and speakers but not in my case for a simple reason: the speakers have about 93.5 dB sensitivity and moreover the amp is not powering the subwoofers as I have a dedicated power for that. It would be virtual impossible to clip listening to just music as I do since the amp has huge reserves of power.

I'm eyeing up this tasty Satori TW29RN dimpled dome fabric tweeter.

I haven't had a very good run with metal tweeters. I don't know if the extra "air" they produce is simply distortion or extra clarity, but the TW29RN (neodymium version) is Troel's favourite fabric dome. according to one of his Satori designs:

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/tweeters/ring-dome/satori-tw29rn-b/

The TW29RN is lower impedance and higher sensitivity so XO redesign will be required. I don't think the lower impedance will be a problem for you though, as I'm sure this occurs probably in your midbass section anyway where high current draw is required.

Most interesting! What is basically the difference and pros and cons between a dome and a ring dome tweeter? BTW, there is also the 8 ohm version of it: TW29RN-B-8

[5th element]

The tweeters here haven't blown though. Blowing a tweeter from an underpowered amplifier cooks the tweeter voice coil, ie melts the insulation and generally chars the entire thing black. This problem seems to be exactly as Zvu has described, the tinsel lead has become brittle due to the epoxy used. Either that or simple metal fatigue has broken the leads.

Looking at the power levels above we're giving 8 watts to the tweeter at 2khz. Certainly this wont fry the device but it would probably be the worst case when it comes to tweeter excursion. The TL tweeter should be able to give you ~112dB @ 2kHz and still be remaining within xmax. With 93dB sensitivity 8 watts that's only 102dB or using a tiny amount of the excursion capabilities of the device. It's not good that they are dying.

If you wanted to replace the tweeter with something else and still have the same cut out I would go with a small, shallow, wave-guide. You'd need something specially crafted for the cut-out but there are threads on here about 3D printing stuff, perhaps someone would assist you in creating one?

You could otherwise use something like a SB26ADC from SB. This has a smaller faceplate but the thickness would suit the depth of the cutout for the TL tweeter. You'd need to pad it a little bit but it would be easy to make it sit flush with the current baffle. Obviously you'd be left with a small ring around the tweeter but you could get a cosmetic ring machined/cut out of something to sit around the tweeter to fill the gap.

[cochinada]

Thanks Matt for the excellent analysis. :T

If you wanted to replace the tweeter with something else and still have the same cut out I would go with a small, shallow, wave-guide. You'd need something specially crafted for the cut-out but there are threads on here about 3D printing stuff, perhaps someone would assist you in creating one?

You could otherwise use something like a SB26ADC from SB. This has a smaller faceplate but the thickness would suit the depth of the cutout for the TL tweeter. You'd need to pad it a little bit but it would be easy to make it sit flush with the current baffle. Obviously you'd be left with a small ring around the tweeter but you could get a cosmetic ring machined/cut out of something to sit around the tweeter to fill the gap.

SB26ADC is not possible to fit as you can see on the pictures below, unless I replace the original plate. The thickness is OK but the problem are the screws that don't have any material to attach to.



I think I have no better option but to build a custom plate or shallow wave-guide as you put it. I have no problems with the drawing, except that I would need to have the exact profile of the original plate. I'm not sure if SB Acoustics would provide me that information though. Although I don't know anyone with a 3d printer I was considering building the plate in aluminum or steel, whatever would be the better choice and send the plans to a shop that uses CNC.