Three Way Evil Design Study

[JonMarsh]

The little "EVIL" cameras (Electronics Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) like that Olympus and my Sony NEX7 are real convenient sizes for quick stuff, but in general the small sensors they have limit noise performance and above ISO800 they get a bit grainy- that's the diplomatic description, I think.

I just got my daughter an NEX6 for XMAS, which seems like a good set of tradeoffs, most of the good user features of the NEX7, plus a real mode wheel, BUT 2/3 of the resolution with the same size sensor, so noise performance is better.

Back to business - I did get distracted by some other tasks and activities today, but did finally finish the important stuff- new measurements!


These are gated measurements in room, with long enough gates to show some of the room modes (35H and 170 Hz dips), but still OK for development, in my opinion.

The Aurasound NS12-513-4A




An on-off axis series for the Accuton C173-6-90; 0 deg, 15 deg, 30 deg, 45 deg




An on-off axis series for the Jantzen JDT-1024. Also at 0 deg, 15 deg, 30 deg, 45 deg. Looks like they made some fairly decent design decisions with their diffusor dot; this is about the best performance off axis I've measured for a hard dome. :T




And of course, checking distortion on the JDT-1024 out of curiosity - I'd say it's fairly decent, in the high end Seas/Scanspeak range above 1500 Hz. Third order is very low, 2nd order fairly reasonable. I was NOT trying to do super quiet distortion measurements, just took SPL test data in Fuzzmeaure and did a distortion analysis- ambient noise was higher than I'd like for this test.




Well, time for some dinner, then exporting FRD files and seeing how things look in LspCAD! :B

[cjd]

Interesting artifact between 4k and 5kHz on that tweeter. I assume it's diffraction from the baffle edges, not the mid? Looks like it'll have to take the dip on-axis for better overall response unless you go with felt.

The real question is, how does the real data compare to the simulations? Ok, so that's really not the question, but it's closer to "how does it sound" than we've seen in a while!

XZ-1 doesn't even swap lenses. Small pocketable P&S that shoots RAW, gives me full manual control, and has a hot-shoe for a real flash. While I missed the 5DII in Hawaii, I did NOT miss lugging it around - we were right on the edge weight-wise, and this is much easier for me to always carry with me just in case. When used properly it's one of the best in this size. Nothin like the 5DII, mind you...

[JonMarsh]

Bad Boy Pic

Just scroll vertically- should fit most monitors horizontally. :W

Photo-bucket downrezzed it- surprising how much it loses going from 2048 to 1024 in height. Of course, Photo-bucket is also scrunching it from 733 kb to 78 kb!

If any one should be curious, PM me and I can email the original.

[JonMarsh]

Interesting artifact between 4k and 5kHz on that tweeter. I assume it's diffraction from the baffle edges, not the mid? Looks like it'll have to take the dip on-axis for better overall response unless you go with felt.

The real question is, how does the real data compare to the simulations? Ok, so that's really not the question, but it's closer to "how does it sound" than we've seen in a while!

XZ-1 doesn't even swap lenses. Small pocketable P&S that shoots RAW, gives me full manual control, and has a hot-shoe for a real flash. While I missed the 5DII in Hawaii, I did NOT miss lugging it around - we were right on the edge weight-wise, and this is much easier for me to always carry with me just in case. When used properly it's one of the best in this size. Nothin like the 5DII, mind you...

Well, there will be a felt assembly in the grille panel, so we'll have to see how that all comes out- plus I don't imagine I'll be listening directly on axis all that often... that would be a lot of toe in. That's something to determine after working out the crossover and voicing.

And, just for the record, the driver data here looks better than that used for my crossover simulation earlier in the thread- the woofer is flatter, and the tweeter will be easier to work with than I expected- I was expecting a little more baffle step on the tweeter potentially. The Aurasounds are much flatter than the Scanspeak 10" Revelators. Midrange is the same, not much measured difference.

[5th element]

The diamond dome measures quite well, it ain't no Scan Speak down low, but for a ≈2.5kHz xover that isn't a problem.

[JonMarsh]

The diamond dome measures quite well, it ain't no Scan Speak down low, but for a ≈2.5kHz xover that isn't a problem.

That's my thought, too. The 30 degree axis curve (red) is quite nice for a hard dome, and of course the nice thing missing from all the curves (which with this firewire interface only goes out to 40 kHz (I don't know if Fuzzmeaure can go higher) is a dome HF breakup mode. I'll probably use the 30 degree data for design, which I often do as it better averages the voicing of the tweeter. In this case, it wouldn't make as much difference as is typically the case!

Note in THIS series of sweeps for the 6640 the red is only 30 degrees off axis.



For the JDT-1024, the 30 degree sweep is...



Which is a better trade-off? I'm not about to call that without some extended listening. But I can see the advantage for most listeners and program material of nearly flat performance 30 degrees off axis to 17 kHz. I think it will be fairly easy to work with.

Also have some new ideas about the LF crossover, based on my experience with Wilson system design. It may be applicable here; actually I'm sure it could be, but would it sound better or not compared with a more conventional crossover approach? (i.e., asymmetrical LF to HF for woofer to midrange; Wilson does an acoustical 1st order roll off on the woofers and 3rd order high pass on the midrange; this gives a somewhat taller source height up through the lower midrange, which augments "body" output and tends to reduce floor bounce impact. It's something to evaluate.

The Marten Design speakers I've heard with this dome and Accuton midrange were pretty top tier in that frequency range as commercial speakers go, even though it was one of the less expensive 6.5" Accutons.

Need to do impedance measurements tonight, if there's time after work following a long weekend! Also plan to do some nearfield tests just for the record.

[TacoD]

That looks stunning, are you planning to use the silver colored screws for the woofers?

I am really interested how you will manage to marry the diamond tweeter with this 6.5" woofer. I understand the break-up of the Accuton is not an issue, but is the directivity of the woofer when crossed > 2200 Hz not starting to be an issue? At an angle of 45 degrees it is already down > 3 dB.

My experience is that an asymmetrical LF/ HF filter can work out very well (some years back did a 2way using 4th order for the tweeter and 1st order for woofer)

[JonMarsh]

That looks stunning, are you planning to use the silver colored screws for the woofers?

I am really interested how you will manage to marry the diamond tweeter with this 6.5" woofer. I understand the break-up of the Accuton is not an issue, but is the directivity of the woofer when crossed > 2200 Hz not starting to be an issue? At an angle of 45 degrees it is already down > 3 dB.

My experience is that an asymmetrical LF/ HF filter can work out very well (some years back did a 2way using 4th order for the tweeter and 1st order for woofer)

#10 square drive black oxide screws are on order for the woofers! This is just a test mount for driver measurements before serious cabinet finishing gets under way.

You're right about the off axis behavior of the 6.5", so having some slightly asymmetric characteristic in the tweeter crossover may be desirable to optimize off axis. But my serious target point for off axis is 30 degrees, and that's the data I'll likely use for crossover development.

[5th element]

It is interesting looking at the design choices/compromises for this kind of thing, where going with a wave-guide, sorts out the upper dispersion issues of the tweeter with respect to upper end tonal balance and also solves all the issues of the large mid and any directivity problems encountered with a higher xover point. Yes I am a rather large proponent of using wave-guides and you, Jon, have more than enough experience with and without them.

It would be interesting to see how well the diamond dome matches up with a wave-guide as this, to me, seems like a sort of high frequency holy grail. You're getting pistonic operation out to very high frequencies and without any major breakup issues. If breakup occurs it's usually benign, or so high in frequency that it doesn't matter.

This diamond dome is of course very expensive, so don't go burning one like you did the 6640! Or are replacement domes available? It will be interesting to see how much SEAS are going to charge for their 'white diamond' and then there's the supposed possibility of scan having a diamond dome somewhere on the horizon too.

Something tells me that the future might continue being rather expensive for you in the tweeter department!

[mkc]

Hi Jon,

Simply awsome.

Btw. How long gate are you using on these measurements?

Best,
Mogens

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

Simply awsome.

Btw. How long gate are you using on these measurements?

Best,
Mogens

50 msec on the woofer, 30 msec on the midrange and tweeter, with half Hanning windows.

[JonMarsh]

It is interesting looking at the design choices/compromises for this kind of thing, where going with a wave-guide, sorts out the upper dispersion issues of the tweeter with respect to upper end tonal balance and also solves all the issues of the large mid and any directivity problems encountered with a higher xover point. Yes I am a rather large proponent of using wave-guides and you, Jon, have more than enough experience with and without them.

It would be interesting to see how well the diamond dome matches up with a wave-guide as this, to me, seems like a sort of high frequency holy grail. You're getting pistonic operation out to very high frequencies and without any major breakup issues. If breakup occurs it's usually benign, or so high in frequency that it doesn't matter.

This diamond dome is of course very expensive, so don't go burning one like you did the 6640! Or are replacement domes available? It will be interesting to see how much SEAS are going to charge for their 'white diamond' and then there's the supposed possibility of scan having a diamond dome somewhere on the horizon too.

Something tells me that the future might continue being rather expensive for you in the tweeter department!

A lot of thoughtful comments there- I won't say I have good "answers", but I'll share my thoughts/feelings about why I'm going the direction I've chosen here, and what I expect.

As you know, following various waveguide projects, it's a bit trickier, it seems, to get hard domes to work well in one, and I don't have any clear reason why, except that possibly acoustical resonances at short wavelengths at the dome/throat interface may tend to be damped more, not as high a Q as with a hard dome.

I've seen some interesting posts here for how to mate up the more expensive SS tweeters mechanically to a waveguide, but not any measured results. Also, the more manageable smaller waveguides, like the old MCM and the Jantzen which I like, show effective waveguide loading only down to about 2 kHz, dropping off below that. And getting consistent performance in the 10 kHz and above region is tricky- was able to do that with the SS D2608/9130, was NOT able to do that with the Millenium Excel, which had been another candidate for the Modula Xtreme.

Then, there's other considerations- more nebulous, I'm afraid.

The Modula Xtreme's measured well, as far as linearity and off axis behavior to 30+ degrees, but I preferred the top end integration and sound of the Ardents with the SS 6640 tweeter. The Xtreme's imaged well; the Ardents image better, more 3D. I'm a bit of an imaging whore in speaker and electronics design; picked that habit up in the late 70's, too.


The intent all along when doing these weird faceted baffle designs back in the 70's (before I even met the founder of Avalon, who used to work for me when he was a physics student at CU), was to use a minimum size baffle to push the baffle step frequency as high as possible- targeting something more like a quasi cardiod radiation pattern. Is that the right thing to do? I liked how it worked subjectively even then. I was actually surprised that the measured LF performance of the JDT-1024 was as extended as it was, considering the baffle shape and very small width and height- this will reduce axial output below 2 kHz, while increasing the power response dispersion.


So, figuring the Neil Patel knows something about how he's continuing this approach, and having heard the inspiration for these, I decided to stay the course on these and go direct radiator.

Let's see how I feel about that in a month or so!

And you're so very right, I'm being super careful in setup for testing; brought out my Ayre preamp and best cables instead of my passive preamp and the one's I'd been using with the Aragon BBX3 when I fried that 6640! The only replacement policy is a new matched pair, as far as I know! I don't like fuses, but I've been researching high end fuse solutions and will probably test them inline for distortion- I don't want to be popping these tweeters!

At this point, I'm also likely to include a small ultrasonic filter in them, to make them as friendly as possible for CLASS D amplifiers, as I expect to be experimenting with the new Hypex NCORE modules, and don't want any carrier frequency riding into the tweeters.

I am curious to see what Seas and SS come up with for new tweeters, but having heard this one in some Marten Designs models in Europe, I felt I knew what I was getting into, and didn't want to let this project languish any longer (as a reminder, the thread start date is December 2006! Enough is enough! Long term planning is one thing, endless delays and procrastination is something altogether else! Besides, it just seemed like the right time, especially with our New Zealander Mike wanting to do such as similar project- teaming up seemed like the thing to do.

Having somewhere to receive the bamboo ply and do the basic cuts was a big help, also- hats off to my GF! My poor Ryobi/Craftsman Franken saw got the job done, but just barely when it came to the laminated FP cross cuts- it seemed like everything was stressed to the limits for getting this done. I certainly have no intent of trying to do a DIY version of the Sentinels! :W

[5th element]

One reason why soft domes might work better is because they are going through breakup. The radiating area is narrowing as frequency increases vs the hard domes which remain pistonic. It could just be the throat/tweeter junction though, which is extremely important or maybe dome profiles are different for soft vs hard. I have seen some nice match ups of hard domes to wave-guides though, so it can be done.

It's interesting that you mention a preference for the Ardents as my own experience has led me to prefer the opposite, with the wave-guide, for the exact same reasons that you prefer the Ardents. I am an Imaging junkie too.

This might all be down to the room interaction though, with your room and ears being more suited to without the wave-guide. Afterall it does end up as how the system plays as a whole, in conjunction with the room.

My room works much better with the wave-guide, pin point focus improves significantly as does the ability for the speakers to disappear, the wave-guides throw a more expansive sound too whilst remaining uncluttered about the whole thing. Almost sounding like a layer of white noise had been removed from the sound stage. Not that all of this subjective mumbo jumbo means much anyway, it is certainly hard to put into words what we're hearing.

[ColoradoTom]

I certainly have no intent of trying to do a DIY version of the Sentinels! :W

Pussy!!! :B

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Pussy!!! :B

Tom

No pain, no gain, eh? :stupid:

The grass hopper that doesn't learn from his tasks and travails is likely to be a squashed bug under the weight of a bigger project!

This one pushed a lot of things to the limits-- tools, skills, budget- and I've still got some strained muscles from moving the bass cabinets around during the holidays! :roll:

Maybe a high end mini-monitor project next! :B With Neodymium magnets so it's light weight... of course, this one is Neodymium on the woofer and midrange, too. :

[ColoradoTom]

No pain, no gain, eh? :stupid:

The grass hopper that doesn't learn from his tasks and travails is likely to be a squashed bug under the weight of a bigger project!

This one pushed a lot of things to the limits-- tools, skills, budget- and I've still got some strained muscles from moving the bass cabinets around during the holidays! :roll:

Maybe a high end mini-monitor project next! :B With Neodymium magnets so it's light weight... of course, this one is Neodymium on the woofer and midrange, too. :

Just pullin' your leg...... I keep looking around the house at imaginary projects I'm still trying to plan out and find I'm prioritizing them by size because I'm not sure how much longer I can lift >150lb components!!

BTW, my daughter thinks these are the coolest speakers she's ever seen and wanted to know if I could have a pair finished before she leaves for college in the Fall. I told her you've been working on them for four years and I'd be lucky if I had them done before she graduated!

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Just pullin' your leg...... I keep looking around the house at imaginary projects I'm still trying to plan out and find I'm prioritizing them by size because I'm not sure how much longer I can lift >150lb components!!

BTW, my daughter thinks these are the coolest speakers she's ever seen and wanted to know if I could have a pair finished before she leaves for college in the Fall. I told her you've been working on them for four years and I'd be lucky if I had them done before she graduated!

Tom

well, here's hoping I have THIS PAIR finished before she graduates!

Let's be realistic, I've been thinking about these for, hmm, six years, and working on them since February! That's counting when I started on the CAD in earnest and ordered the wood from Cali Bamboo.

So, if I get them done this February, they'll actually have been completed in one year, which as you know, is something of an all time record for me!! :rofl:

Still, though there's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip, I think end of February may be possible, if all comes together setting up the temp spray booth.

This was ordered today,



along with filters and a Blogs Aircap set for spraying clear lacquer.

Ah yes, I love the smell of lacquer in the morning... :B

I've got to get impedance data measured, then I'm off to the races evaluating three alternative crossover concepts in LspCAD. I have some of the crossover parts on hand. We'll see how it goes...

Fortunately no heavy duty business travel in sight until March and April.

You tell your daughter I'll supply you with a full set of PDF's once the crossovers are complete. :W :B

[sdl2112]

Congrats on the purchase :T ...I'm quite sure you won't be disappointed.

[ColoradoTom]

I've got to get impedance data measured, then I'm off to the races evaluating three alternative crossover concepts in LspCAD. I have some of the crossover parts on hand. We'll see how it goes...

Fortunately no heavy duty business travel in sight until March and April.

You tell your daughter I'll supply you with a full set of PDF's once the crossovers are complete. :W :B

Cool............ new tools/toys are always fun!! I can't set up a spray booth until both of the girls have left home! :cry:

Just showed my wife the picture of the speakers, her first statement was "could you build them in walnut?". A VERY good sign. Just might have a fun summer project after all! PDF's by March mean possibly new speakers by Christmas!!

How hard is it going to be to source the tweeters and mids??? I already have four of the woofers still in the garage!!

Tom

[meb46]

Tom - the mids are easy to source... its just the price of them that may make you a little sick On that note though, they are a fantastic driver! In the midst of a move now to the US, and I think the Accuton Mids were the sole item I took the MOST care to pack

[Hdale85]

I can't imagine the Diamond Tweeters are any cheaper......

[sdl2112]

along with filters and a #3 Aircap set for spraying clear lacquer.

Ah yes, I love the smell of lacquer in the morning... :B

I happened to run across this FAQ on the Fuji website...it recommends the #4 aircap for lacquer. It also has other recommendations. I would still try the #3 though, with the water-based finishes I used, I had to turn the fluid nozzle pretty low.

http://www.fujispray.com/technical/#lacquer_hvlp

[JonMarsh]

I happened to run across this FAQ on the Fuji website...it recommends the #4 aircap for lacquer. It also has other recommendations. I would still try the #3 though, with the water-based finishes I used, I had to turn the fluid nozzle pretty low.
http://www.fujispray.com/technical/#lacquer_hvlp

Thanks for the Tip and the link! I'll check that out, and of course I'll be practicing on scraps first!

[ColoradoTom]

I can't imagine the Diamond Tweeters are any cheaper......

Looks like the mids can be sourced from Madisound for ~$910.00 each. The tweeters look like they come from the manufacturer and are ~$2000.00 each. So $6000.00 in drivers (since I already have the Aurasound woofers). It looks like Jon is abandoning his philosophy of having the crossover surpass the cost of drivers so that should make this one of his more inexpensive designs....... NOT!!! 8O

Tom

[Hdale85]

Wow! Hmm....I'm not sure I'll be able to squeeze these in lol. Might have to buy 2 drivers a year or so lol!

[JonMarsh]

Looks like the mids can be sourced from Madisound for ~$910.00 each. The tweeters look like they come from the manufacturer and are ~$2000.00 each. So $6000.00 in drivers (since I already have the Aurasound woofers). It looks like Jon is abandoning his philosophy of having the crossover surpass the cost of drivers so that should make this one of his more inexpensive designs....... NOT!!! 8O

Tom

A very serviceable version could be built with the D3004/6640 Beo tweeter- that would be my second choice, and if I hadn't been able to source a pair of the JDT-1024 through eSpeaker ( I bet Jantzen made them carry one pair, because they don't have any now- but I've bought direct from Jantzen for other items) I would have used the 6640, as I really like how it works in the Ardent. They're only 1/4 the price!

But I'd heard the Jantzens and some other systems in which I wasn't sure if it was the Jantzen or a very customized version of Accuton (round faceplate), so I made my best effort to get these, had a bit of bonus money lying around last fall...

When I bought the Accuton mids they were only $450 each. The Chinese holding back rare earth exports has driven the price up, and made Neodymium magnets expensive- and the C173-6-90 has relatively huge Neodymium magnets in order to get a very high BL product with an underhung gap.

Those NS12 Aurasounds would cost double or more what we paid for them originally these days.

So yeah, I gotta cut back a bit on the crossover for these! :B

[JonMarsh]

Cool............ new tools/toys are always fun!! I can't set up a spray booth until both of the girls have left home! :cry:

Just showed my wife the picture of the speakers, her first statement was "could you build them in walnut?". A VERY good sign. Just might have a fun summer project after all! PDF's by March mean possibly new speakers by Christmas!!

How hard is it going to be to source the tweeters and mids??? I already have four of the woofers still in the garage!!

Tom

Hmmm, walnut, that WOULD be nice! :T

In other good news, I found out this evening that the explosion proof fan for my knockdown/fold-up spray booth project just shipped!

[Hdale85]

So will you do a crossover design with a more reasonable tweeter like the 6640? I could probably stomach paying 900 per mid, but 2k each for the tweeters is beyond my limitations haha!

[CADman_ks]

...

Ah yes, I love the smell of lacquer in the morning... :B

...

I LOVE that smell!!!

[Steve Manning]

Looks like the mids can be sourced from Madisound for ~$910.00 each. The tweeters look like they come from the manufacturer and are ~$2000.00 each. So $6000.00 in drivers (since I already have the Aurasound woofers). It looks like Jon is abandoning his philosophy of having the crossover surpass the cost of drivers so that should make this one of his more inexpensive designs....... NOT!!! 8O

Tom

Holy crap :E and I thought the drivers for my 1071 project were bad enough ..... of course they don't look nearly as pretty.

[JonMarsh]

So will you do a crossover design with a more reasonable tweeter like the 6640? I could probably stomach paying 900 per mid, but 2k each for the tweeters is beyond my limitations haha!

It would be a fairly trivial thing to do, in fact, mounting and measuring the 6640 on one of the cabinets was all part of Evil Twin's master plan- I couldn't get the go ahead for the Jantzen tweeters from the Chancellor until I showed that the faceplate for the JDT-1024 and the D3004/6640-00 are the same size, so there's a total back up plan in place for "accidents".

[Hdale85]

Well that would be awesome It could still put these on the table for my ultimate 2 channel build lol.

[Chancellor]

Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Challenges and material logistics will not stand in the way of the completion of this technological triumph. There is nothing to prevent reasonable variations on the base design to be made available for other constructors in the Terran sector.

[ColoradoTom]

I guess, when one considers that Jon is shooting for a design that is equal to or better than a speaker retailing for nearly $80,000.00, having to shell out ~$10,000 in parts for a completed version of this project isn't so bad. :B

If my daughter gets thet full ride scholorship that she's currently a semi-finalist for, I could build a full surround system!! :rofl:

Tom

[JonMarsh]

I guess, when one considers that Jon is shooting for a design that is equal to or better than a speaker retailing for nearly $80,000.00, having to shell out ~$10,000 in parts for a completed version of this project isn't so bad. :B

If my daughter gets thet full ride scholorship that she's currently a semi-finalist for, I could build a full surround system!! :rofl:

Tom

You're seeing the big picture, Tom. This is the sort of project that is definitely going "out there" in terms of financial and sweat equity risks from the large relative investment involved, but it's also an interesting ROI for the skills and learning payback IF I manage to more or less pull it off. Nothing is assured, but right now I'm feeling pretty upbeat on how things are panning out.

The D3004/6640-00 is a "backup plan" or lower budget alternative for the tweeter, as would be the C173-6-191E for the midrange. However, the latter Accuton, as used in the Troels Jensen-Diamon speaker, forgoes the high sensitivity, higher output capability, and lower distortion brought by the underhung Neodymium motor of the C173-6-90. But it would do so at $394 each at Madisound's current prices.

What you have to ask yourself, when you look at all the places we can cut some corners on the outlays, is considering the humongous sweat equity involved EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT DOING ANY VENEERING by using bamboo ply, is it worth it to save a few hundred bucks on the drivers? For the tweeters, maybe so; for the mids, I'm much more skeptical.

Another nice thing about this configuration is that though it will not be as high a sensitivity as two paralleled 8 ohm woofers could provide, even with crossover in place it will be a fairly benign load to drive, making even an Avalon Indra look difficult in comparison due to low impedance and phase angle in the low end.

It's funny but the ongoing discussion has caused me to reveal my hand that I'm also doing measurements with the SS 6640 in the test cabinet- this was just part of my backup plan. That's a fine sounding tweeter, the best I've heard short of a diamond.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I could probably eat the cost of the higher priced mid even though it is nearly 1k each, but for the tweeters you're talking a HUGE price increase and adding 3k dollars on lol. But I certainly do understand the idea and where the design is shooting for. I just had some other expensive things in the budget for the next couple years, like a wedding, and a 10k dollar projector haha. It just makes me wonder how much better the diamond really is, is it' 4 times the cost better? But I guess when you get into a design like this you don't think about it that way, it doesn't matter how much better it is, what matters is that it is better regardless of cost.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah I could probably eat the cost of the higher priced mid even though it is nearly 1k each, but for the tweeters you're talking a HUGE price increase and adding 3k dollars on lol. But I certainly do understand the idea and where the design is shooting for. I just had some other expensive things in the budget for the next couple years, like a wedding, and a 10k dollar projector haha. It just makes me wonder how much better the diamond really is, is it' 4 times the cost better? But I guess when you get into a design like this you don't think about it that way, it doesn't matter how much better it is, what matters is that it is better regardless of cost.

That's kind of how I see it, similar to Troel's comments on his Jensen-Diamond project. The price tag is not linear with the performance- it just comes down to do you want it, and can one summon the means or prioritize it? I know several guys that have $4K plasma Elite Pioneer TV sets- that's their priority- me, I'm happy with a $1K Panasonic Plasma from Costco. Music is a bigger deal to me than movies or football! :lol:

With the $400 Accuton mid and the SS $500 tweeter, you could build a very credible speaker. With the more expensive drivers, you can build a better one. It may not be immediately audible to all listeners, but then, you might be surprised- my 27 year old daughter picks up on a lot of stuff without being cued in ahead of time.

[ColoradoTom]

You're seeing the big picture, Tom. This is the sort of project that is definitely going "out there" in terms of financial and sweat equity risks from the large relative investment involved, but it's also an interesting ROI for the skills and learning payback IF I manage to more or less pull it off. Nothing is assured, but right now I'm feeling pretty upbeat on how things are panning out.

Absolutly true Jon. The ROI really hits home with me as I did cut some corners on my M8ta project. When they were finished and I realized just how good they sounded I wished I had put in a bit more effort and money to making them as close to perfect as possible.

Since you are the "gound breaker" in the project you will spend time working out issues that the next wave of builders won't have to worry about. I really like the woodworking aspect of these projects, and therefore I enjoy what many will find a necessary evil. Based upon how well my stacked Aurasound subs sound with my M8ta's in my home theater I have high hopes for this design. They do many things differently than my Abbey's and I really enjoy listening to music in that room.

Another aspect of this project is that the visual impact is impressive. Everyone in my family has been struck by the unique lines and presentation (even if it is heavily influenced by Avalon). Both my daughters have said that they are the coolest speakers they've ever seen and I really need to build a pair. Cool design + (hopefully) great sound + $70,000.00 savings...... $10,000.00 in parts doesn't look so bad! :B

I also have about 100 board feet of figured walnut I could cut into multiple matched sets of 1/8" thick veneer. :lol:

Tom

[ColoradoTom]

Oh, one thing I forgot is that these will probably average out to well over 100 man hours of time to build and finish they way I would like. When you invest that much time in something you probably want it to be the best it can possibly be...........

Tom

[Hdale85]

I guess if I look at it from a perspective that these could be the last high end speaker I build for my self (this could be a negative as well....I like building speakers lol!) then it's a bit easier to see the value. And I do agree the savings over a commercial design are huge, granted you put many many hours into the build but most of us here enjoy that so it doesn't phase us much.

[5th element]

I think the problem with the diamond dome is it isn't just expensive it's obscene. As far as pricing goes it will be interesting to see how much SEAS want for their product, as I expect that to perhaps be a better reflection on market prices.

The B&W replacement tweeter is $1100 without the plastic mounting pod and $1300 with. If I really wanted a diamond dome it would likely be my first choice. But for sure, diamond domes are few and far between so pricing competitively doesn't really come into it.

I am sure however that artificial diamond fabrication is likely to get far cheaper in the next decade or two as there are many applications that it excels at, such as heat conduction, and in todays high speed semiconductor industry, incorporating diamond into parts of the fabrication process might end up becoming necessary. This should help drive prices down perhaps (we can hope!).

[dar47]

I think The budget options and choices are quite good,

If you have room for 2-12's this with the 6640 or diamond :P . In a perfect world a 2-10's option as well (I'm room width constrained) ops: .

The Ardents with the 6640 or 6600 both with scan or seas :T I've decided on the 6640 but not sure on the scans as I will try to run them with 2 -18" in an IB manifold so maybe seas sealed?

I think the only question left is if Jon is going to do a killer centre to go with all these great options. ;x(

[cjd]

I think The budget options and choices are quite good,

If you have room for 2-12's this with the 6640 or diamond :P . In a perfect world a 2-10's option as well (I'm room width constrained) ops: .

The Ardents with the 6640 or 6600 both with scan or seas :T I've decided on the 6640 but not sure on the scans as I will try to run them with 2 -18" in an IB manifold so maybe seas sealed?

I think the only question left is if Jon is going to do a killer centre to go with all these great options. ;x(

you just build 3 of these and use one as a center. Well, 5. Or 7.

If you've sprung for this, you have no excuse for not using a quality acoustically-transparent screen.

C

[JonMarsh]

Shouldn't mention this, but I have 4 of the NS10's, too!

[dar47]

you just build 3 of these and use one as a center. Well, 5. Or 7.

If you've sprung for this, you have no excuse for not using a quality acoustically-transparent screen.

C

If I'm going through the exercise of building the Ardents, I'm never going to hide them behind no stinking screen. :B