Suggestions welcome

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Alaric
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 4143

    Suggestions welcome

    My speakers are now 10+ years old. The internal braces have all been tightened, new tweeter diaphragms are in the offing along with new ferrofluid, (Long story, but the dog did stop barking. LOL) and since the crossovers are accessible why not replace/upgrade the capacitors? There are only four so I can probably afford a nice upgrade over the Bennic caps they came with-or do I risk screwing up the voicing that way? If it's a safe upgrade path I have very little idea where to start. I can't find my current caps on Bennic's website so I assume they're obsolete by now or they were proprietary. I can get replacements from Paradigm but they have probably been sitting on a shelf for a decade or more. Any suggestions?
    Lee

    Marantz PM7200-RIP
    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
    Schiit Modi 3
    Marantz CD5005
    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
  • xandresen
    Member
    • Feb 2015
    • 48

    #2
    You can upgrade from your dog (and its unwanted woofing) to a pet songbird. They have the advantage of natural sounding tweeting without ferrofluid or super-expensive capacitors. Buy two for stereo.

    Modern film caps shouldn't change over ten years so no need to buy identical caps from Bennic or Paragon.

    Comment

    • Bear
      Super Senior Member
      • Dec 2008
      • 1038

      #3
      Originally posted by Alaric
      My speakers are now 10+ years old. The internal braces have all been tightened, new tweeter diaphragms are in the offing along with new ferrofluid, (Long story, but the dog did stop barking. LOL) and since the crossovers are accessible why not replace/upgrade the capacitors? There are only four so I can probably afford a nice upgrade over the Bennic caps they came with-or do I risk screwing up the voicing that way? If it's a safe upgrade path I have very little idea where to start. I can't find my current caps on Bennic's website so I assume they're obsolete by now or they were proprietary. I can get replacements from Paradigm but they have probably been sitting on a shelf for a decade or more. Any suggestions?
      Look for similar parameters as a starting point (uF, %Tolerance, VDC). These should be labeled, though heat and age may make them unreadable. A 100uF cap with a film-and-foil construction is going to be expensive. A 3.3uF cap much, much less so. The capacitance values matter more than the number of capacitors. After the basic parameters, the value equation gets subjective. The more exotic sounding, the more expensive (Gold $$$ > Silver $$ > $ Copper). I don't have the ears, the training or the experience to credibly comment much beyond the basic construction issues. I will say that I like the Clarity CSA capacitors because they are generally a smaller form factor than other capacitors that are at a similar subjective rating level and smaller values are still affordable on an absolute basis.

      Also, quality does matter more for capacitors that are in series with the driver than the ones in parallel. I have most recently used Dayton's general audio capacitors for those. The price differential vs something like the CSA series is Not Small (25uF in this case).
      Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

      Comment

      • Alaric
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Jan 2006
        • 4143

        #4
        I'm up on matching capacitance and so on, and I'm not looking to drop hundreds of dollars on the project, but I was wondering if anyone had done a capacitor upgrade on their speakers AND how they felt about the results.
        My speakers just don't sound as quick and lively as I remember them being. (And I carefully noted I'm basing this on the subjective ) It could be my hearing, too, but I've had them loud enough that I should have heard everything they can do and they seem to lack detail-something at which they used to excel.
        When my amp died I had replaced it with a Cambridge Audio receiver until I could work out a permanent solution. It sounded very...British. I didn't care for it. I finally managed a healthy upgrade but it didn't bring back the magic, so to speak. Imaging and soundstage are not as well focused and seem...blurred slightly. I've tried four DACs, five if you count the CD player, and that hasn't done it either. Cap replace/upgrade or rebuild the crossovers is the last thing I can think of short of new speakers, which aren't in the budget. I can't afford a bad case of upgraditis. LOL
        Lee

        Marantz PM7200-RIP
        Marantz PM-KI Pearl
        Schiit Modi 3
        Marantz CD5005
        Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15261

          #5
          This is one of those situations where I'd have to say insufficient hard data for meaningful answer...

          And without hard data, particularly about what your past components sounded like, well meaning people with good intentions may just muddy the water for you even more thoroughly...

          However, I'll offer a few random thoughts based on my experience... stuff that is quite audible with just a well designed and built two way speaker, like the NatalieP, or the Calliope. Of course, we all realize that two way speakers can span quite a price range... just look at commercial stuff, even smallish box speakers, like the Elac Debut Reference, or the Wharfdale Reva 2 (both of which I own- mostly out of curiosity after having read reviews. I'm not worried... ) (IMO, the Elac does represent good value, and for someone looking for a natural sounding but slightly dark speaker in its price range, I'd certainly recommend giving them a listen).

          • One of the frequent problems with "upgrades", especially at lower price levels, is that "upgrades" or competing products near the same price level are often just sideways moves- different drawabacks, different strenghts and weaknesses.
          • I have bought and tested a variety of Schitt products- though not the Modi- almost all represent good value and musicality for their price points. However...
          • I have listened to and benched the Gungir and Yggdrasil, under the condition that I don't publish the bench results. Don't ask, don't tell. The Gungir was the Delta-sigma version; I am not particularly a fan of delta-sigma DACs. Now, obviously there is a huge price difference between the Yggdrasil and the Modi. But you do get something for your money. Personally, I would recommend a Soekeris 1541 (half the price of the Yggy), which I have, but that is replaced by a newer model, the 2541. I also have a Soekris 1101, but all of these seem to be sold out currently. These are discrete multi-bit DACs, just like my Denafrips Terminator and my TotalDAC D2.
          • Another brand of DAC I've had very good experiences with is Berkely Alpha DAC- the original Alpha DAC, which I owned and was the first DAC I ever had that imaged decently (Steve Manning has that unit) and the successor models I've heard, especially the Reference series. The Alpha DAC series 2 has an MSRP of $4995, and if the Denafrips Terminator didn't exist for about $500 less, I'd probably have one of those. But we're talking VERY different price ranges from the Modi! Which brings up my next point...
          • Many decades ago, one of the common truisms was don't skimp on your source unit- that should be a place where you really focus resources. Back then it was turntables and cartridges, or monster open reels. (done both). Similarly, GIGO. So, not knowing your exact situation, I'm wondering if there isn't a dealer nearby you could borrow units from and see how far you have to upgrade to get to source performance that makes a difference.
          • With a high grade source, one can easily detect and justify crossover capacitor upgrades. The more expensive systems I've been putting together with various folks on the forums over the years reflect that. But there is likely no point in spending more on your crossover caps than on your DAC... just saying. But in another system, with a different front end, those upgrades could be justified. There are some upgraded NatalieP's around with some pretty pricey crossover parts- the driver performance justifies it, IF the system front end does. Just 'sayin.
          • Notice I didn't even get into talking about my TotalDAC D2 and reclocking the data stream with a Brainstorm or Mutec reclocker fed with a 10MHz Rubidum oscillator, or using more exotic Digital source connections like I2S which convey both the clock and the signal on separate lines, instead of having to reconstitute the clock at the DAC... There are many levels of expectations and performance.
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Alaric
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Jan 2006
            • 4143

            #6
            The Modi is absolutely not up to my previous source's DAC (IMO), my Marantz SA8260 SACD player. My current main source is lossless CD rips from the computer to the Modi. My temporary CD solution (Until the SACD is repaired) also doesn't really cut it in the DAC department. Previous sources included a MMF-5 SE turntable with a Bellari VP29 phono pre and some flavor of Marantz tuner I liked (ST6000?). The previous amp was a Marantz PM7200, current one in the sig. The only constant is the speakers. I loved the PM7200. It had detail, nice big soundstage and good imaging. It also most definitely had some coloration. I left it in Class A 95% of the time, but it was never what you'd call neutral. My current amp has some of the same characteristics but not nearly as pronounced. I suppose it could also be that difference I'm trying to "correct".
            I am really going to laugh at myself if I'm chasing after the sonic compromises made by lower priced gear with upgrades! Like early exposure causing us to equate distortion with "loud". I went through that, too. It doesn't sound loud. Because as a teenager it wasn't "cranked up" until it was throwing squared off sine waves. Well, now I have much more to think about. Fortunately, thinking is free.
            Lee

            Marantz PM7200-RIP
            Marantz PM-KI Pearl
            Schiit Modi 3
            Marantz CD5005
            Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15261

              #7
              All good points. I didn't even bring up the better disk players- (I have a few in storage... including a pretty nice Marantz unit). There are lots of possible options, and a lot depends on what sources you want to use. For example, a computer based music server- (which I've experimented with a lot, including some units designed for network rendering over ethernet or by USB connection, or even a combination. BTW, the Alpha USB is one of the finest USB to AES units I've ever found. AES has been my common way of transmitting digital, due to it's relative noise immunity, though I've got a Mutec with USB input that I will be experimenting with. Both have very high grade clock systems, and the Mutec can work with external 10MHz Rubidium oscillators, too. eBay is where I got mine...

              My music server computer is an older dedicated unit setup for Roon, not a PC but an early Small Green Computer running Roon on Sonic Orbiter, and connecting to a MicroRendu. More recently (a two or three years ago) I acquired a Sonore Signature Rendu but things have been so busy I haven't had any time to try it out, though a friend in Munich has one, too, and it's based on listening in his system that I bought it.

              There's tons of different approaches out there, reading and thinking are for free, as you note...
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • Alaric
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 4143

                #8
                Yup. When I was faced with the option of a $100 discrete op amp for my motherboard or the Modi it was a no brainer. It wouldn't be tied to one motherboard and even at its price point it beats a motherboard audio section (even a relatively good one) pretty handily. My motherboard has decent audio, for a motherboard. That qualifier says more than the "decent" part, though. LOL
                So the consensus is a capacitor upgrade won't do anything? I wasn't expecting any transformative result from it. Capacitors won't magically make them sound like $10k speakers. Maybe just a little polish on what were already (and still are) very good speakers.

                The DACs you mentioned are nice, and well out of my budgetary reach. I'm also faced with the fact that these speakers will be going to my daughter some day, because better sounding speakers are also a no go for my budget. Even though they sounded much better than their cost implied when new, a $2000 to $3000 DAC that will end up attached to $1600 speakers...
                That the speakers are attached to a $3700 amplifier is irony not lost on me, either. The old Paradigms acquit themselves quite well, though. They might be out of their league, but I won't know unless I hook up noticeably better ones to the amp. LOL
                Lee

                Marantz PM7200-RIP
                Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                Schiit Modi 3
                Marantz CD5005
                Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                Comment

                • Alaric
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 4143

                  #9
                  Another factor I completely failed to consider is my tinnitus. I suppose I'm "used to it" somewhat, and just do my best to ignore it. Hundreds of metallic crickets are the noise floor for my life and that has to be affecting what I hear from my speakers. *sigh*
                  Lee

                  Marantz PM7200-RIP
                  Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                  Schiit Modi 3
                  Marantz CD5005
                  Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                  Comment

                  • ---k---
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 5202

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Alaric
                    My speakers just don't sound as quick and lively as I remember them being. (And I carefully noted I'm basing this on the subjective ) It could be my hearing, too, but I've had them loud enough that I should have heard everything they can do and they seem to lack detail-something at which they used to excel.
                    Based on that, I think either:
                    1) Something else changed that you're not aware of.
                    2) Nothing Changed, it's your hearing.
                    3) Something changed / deteriorated in your speakers.
                    4) It's the different amp.

                    My opinion, and this is just big wild guesses, starting at
                    #4 - I think this is the least likely. There have been internet wars over whether all amps sound the same or not. I tend to believe that some people like Jon with extensive listen can hear the very subtle differences between amps and DACs. And, I don't think it is night and day obvious. So, just my opinion, but least likely.
                    #3 - possible. Maybe a mouse got in your port and did some damage. It's happened. Maybe you overdrove them and burned a resistor up? possible, I guess. But the caps and such in a 10-year old Paradigm speaker shouldn't deteriorate on their own of natural causes. And it sounds like you've opened them up and don't see damage.
                    #2 - Very possible. This could have been my #1. It always amazes me how our ear memory sucks and how something just being new makes it so much better.
                    #1 - I'm going to go with this one. Just because in the past, I've been really amazed and struck by how a small shift in position or toe in or something can change the sound. I'm wondering if you've moved them closer to the wall and getting a little more mud in the bass because of the back wall reflection, or you've moved your seat and aren't perfectly in the sweet spot. Or maybe new furniture, went from old cloth furniture that sucked up a lot to leather furniture? Maybe the new front-end/amp isn't set up quite right. I always am amazed how the imagining and details snaps in and out of focus so much when I change the distance of 1 speaker by 1'.

                    I haven't experimented with super fancy amps, but I've always found that a few hours spent making small changes in room position can have big effects. So, that's where I'd start.
                    - Ryan

                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                    Comment

                    • Alaric
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 4143

                      #11
                      I'm pretty limited in speaker placement at the moment, but I'm leaning towards 2 and 1, in that order. Maybe. LOL Where they're placed at present is toed in and too close. I'll see if I can squeeze out the space to toe them out a little. The positioning was more to move the baffles away from the sidewalls than point them directly at me, but since the room size is awful I figured that wouldn't hurt either. Maybe a little more soundstage width would open up the sound some. My original set up had them mostly pointed at my listening position but they were at least twice as far away. Come to think of it, I had a pair of TriTrix in this room recently and they sounded much better off axis, with no toe in. I assumed it was a quirk of the speakers. I may have assumed too much?

                      It is possible they are just too much speaker for this room. Damn. That would mean I have to move, because I'm a lot more attached to them than I am to this dump. LOL
                      Lee

                      Marantz PM7200-RIP
                      Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                      Schiit Modi 3
                      Marantz CD5005
                      Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      😀
                      😂
                      🥰
                      😘
                      🤢
                      😎
                      😞
                      😡
                      👍
                      👎
                      Searching...Please wait.
                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                      An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                      There are no results that meet this criteria.
                      Search Result for "|||"