Official CP-800 (Revision 2) Thread

[PewterTA]

I wish they would get rid of DSD, it's a waste and actually lessens the quality of the audio. The reason for this is that DSD is 1bit, 1x1 = 1, which mean you can do not processing on the original recorded DSD stream. So in order for ANY company to do anything with the stream, they have to convert it to PCM, edit (post production, mastering stuff, then convert it back to DSD. All those conversion have the potential to degrade the signal. Especially when they can record straight to PCM and do what they want with it.

DSD has had no advantages that I have found.

I'm 1020% okay with Classe not supporting DSD.

[leo2498]

august was pass away and there are not new news of classe delivering the new board for his owners so everything indicates that apple delayed this release.

[RebelMan]

I wish they would get rid of DSD, it's a waste and actually lessens the quality of the audio. ... DSD has had no advantages that I have found. ... I'm 1020% okay with Classe not supporting DSD.

Perceptual coding theories and practices, empirical case studies and ABX testing all suggest that there are no audibly tangible advantages to either DSD or hires PCM beyond RedBook CD. It all starts with a quality recording that is well mixed and methodically mastered to achieve optimal results. The medium or transport mechanism, if you will, is simply a means to an end, not the end itself. But there is value in both DSD and hires PCM because some if not many CD transfers were not disciplined enough to sound as good as they could or should.

Since studios are finding less incentive to republish/rework their (back) catalogs on what is perceived to be by many a dying medium, efforts to generate new streams (like that?... streams :P) of revenue lie with the growing interest in downloadable content packaged in DSD and hires PCM formats. Which format(s) a studio choses to support and/or use should be irrelevant to us much in the same way that Dolby and dts are. If Classé is going to continue to do what they have set out to do then support for both formats is going to be necessary if they are going to remain relevant. The CP-800's target audience is us. Who are we? Music loving fiends that want the highest quality possible. No matter how good our playback system is or may be, if garbage goes in then garbage comes out. DSD and hires PCM downloads are going to be in our best interest for the foreseeable future.

It's really not worth debating which format is better, both have their merits. From an engineer's perspective, your message is well taken. As a listener I am indifferent, as long as quality content remains accessible, I'm good.

[RebelMan]

As I was saying... CEA Announces Expanded Support of High-Resolution Audio

[wkhanna]

My apologies precede, but I am just a cynical old fart, so if I offend anyone……….oh well……..

I find it curious that after all these years CE finally decides to jump on the ‘Better Sound’ band wagon for music. Yeah, they wanted multi-channel HT systems in every living room (for obvious rea$on$). Just imaging the margin on all those speakers, subs & mult-channel amps!

But music? The only $ available to be made in the music market was re-issues in new formats (how many times are we going to be told we MUST buy the same music we already have?), & portable devices. & when it comes to music, for the past generation or more, it has been all about quantity, Not quality.

The average consumer can plainly see the difference in Hi-Def TV, even when it is shown poorly calibrated (which is most the time). But just how is the average consumer (what should we call the ubiquitous customer these days……??? Ian I-Tunes….?) anyways, just how is one supposed to discern the wondrous capabilities of this ‘end-game’ new format? People are going to have a hard time getting most of the advantages from Hi-Rez on their Apple ear buds or HT-in-a-box sound systems.

And does anyone other than us crazy audiophiles give a flying kahuna anyway?

I just have a hard time finding sincerity with idea CE wants what is ‘best’ for us.

[RebelMan]

I don't think anyone could be offended by your comments because they are, quite frankly, truthful. This industry is a business, after all, like any worthwhile pursuing. For the majority of mainstream users it probably won't matter what they (CE) does. But many people are willing to spend a little more for better quality. High definition video content has become successful because it's convenient (streamable) and affordable (rentable) with little or no loss to quality. Standard resolution audio content can be convenient and affordable too but has been only for a quality suffering price.

The key for HRA's success is placing it in a competitive position in the market place where convenience and quality doesn't suffer for a reasonable price. Another key to its success is the opportunity to expose more young people to the benefits good sound can bring to its listeners. Kids brought up on mostly compressed audio have no idea what they are missing until someone shows them. That's where the CE industry can be helpful to us as well as themselves. Obviously you'll get more milage out of HRA with a better system but lesser systems will still run better with better fuel in them. And as you know, once they are hooked, it's all over for them. But in a very good way.

[silvertone]

Continuing the DSD party, looks like Sony Music is opening up their DSD catalog for downloads.

I'm not advocating any particular format, I just welcome Hi Res becoming readily available in different flavors:

http://www.audiostream.com/

[wkhanna]

I don't think anyone could be offended by your comments because they are, quite frankly, truthful...... That's where the CE industry can be helpful to us as well as themselves. Obviously you'll get more milage out of HRA with a better system but lesser systems will still run better with better fuel in them. And as you know, once they are hooked, it's all over for them. But in a very good way.

Anytime anyone is exposed to better quality audio playback I see it as a V good thing. & I know we should be reading 'tween the lines', but the wording in that press release just rubbed me the wrong way. We don't need no stinking saviors. Meanwhile, hardware manufacturers are having to incorporate DSD capability into their product line whether they want to or not because consumers want it. But do they? They are being told they need it to get access to all this new (same old SACD) content. & as Dan pointed out, it will still need converted, so yet another opportunity for some one to 'step' on the original.

During a discussion over dinner at the Capital Audiofest with Brian Zolner, owner & designer of the Bricasti DAC, (arguably one of the better DACs on the market today) he said he felt there was little value to be had by having DSD incorporated in his DAC. But current market trends demanded it. And what is good for the goose is not always necessarily what is good for the gander.....

OK, Rant is over.
Sorry for the distraction.

[RebelMan]

...the wording in that press release just rubbed me the wrong way. We don't need no stinking saviors. ...

Heh heh, gotcha.

Well one could argue that we don't need dts HD Master Audio either but many prefer it to Dolby TrueHD even though it doesn't possess any audible advantages. DSD does not need to be massaged but often is because the existing tooling and infrastructure supports a PCM world and its economy of scale. If you recall, the situation between hires PCM and DSD today is not unlike the format war we had between HDDVD and Blu-ray not so long ago. Back then it was argued that Blu-ray would be far too costly to implement and would incur unnecessary production delays. HDDVD would be able to ramp up production quickly and cheaply so it seemed to be the natural and seamless progress step to take. In the end that advantage didn't help HDDVD's cause very much and as well all know (now) Blu-ray releases have become quick and affordable. Costs aside there are no technical disadvantages in supporting DSD. Eventually, as the support structure improves, DSD will find its sweet spot similar to the way Blu-ray did.

The real issue here is not about the technology. It's about the age old battle between standards and choices. It would be nice if the CE industry could agree on everything but at what cost? Would it limit access to content? Would it impact quality? Would it stifle innovation? How would you feel if you could pick any color you want as long as it was black? The industry needs to get along to survive and if that means sharing technologies between its players, then so be it. I don't care what color I am given to ride in (DSD or hires PCM) so long as the key (CP-800) works and the trip is enjoyable.

[wkhanna]

Thank you, Rebelman, for your tolerance to my rants.

Frankly, I blame it all on Sony in first place for choosing to use their old video format resolution to base the CD on.
They had the ability in the dawn of the technology to chose a more practical, higher resolution that could easily have been implemented, but for convenience (I guess) stayed with the old standard. Now we all are paying for it.

[RebelMan]

LOL, not all of us. Analog is hot right now.

[wkhanna]

:roflmao:

Analog....

Really?

I might have to check that out sometime.

[PewterTA]

Another good reason as to why, over on the Linn forums, DSD should DIE. lol

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=23096

[RebelMan]

What's the matter Darth Dan, don't like the Rebels interfering with the Imperial Navy and their strangle hold on the galactic empire? :lol:


Ahhh, a new weapon in the battle for freedom (of choice)! LOL

[leo2498]

do you Have Any new information of what Happen with the new ethernet board, Rebelman?

[PewterTA]

Ha ha, no... It just annoys me that we (as a society) always go towards things that aren't the best and a lot of time better things never get their chance because, basically, idiots are making the decisions for the masses. That's my problem with Apple... I don't want them thinking for me....so it's the same with DSD.

[silvertone]

Ha ha, no... It just annoys me that we (as a society) always go towards things that aren't the best and a lot of time better things never get their chance because, basically, idiots are making the decisions for the masses. That's my problem with Apple... I don't want them thinking for me....so it's the same with DSD.

Not sure I agree with all the anti-DSD statements 'round here.

Every recording will be different, some will sound better via DSD than their PCM counterparts. The proof will be in the listening session, you can always look at some objective measurement like dynamic range, etc.

I have used this site in the past to look up certain recordings:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

[RebelMan]

do you Have Any new information of what Happen with the new ethernet board, Rebelman?

I will not have any updates until next week.

[RebelMan]

That's my problem with Apple... I don't want them thinking for me....so it's the same with DSD.

Apple? Really? Didn't you really mean to say Microsoft, as in the Windows vs OS/2 days for which the former was clearly inferior?

[silvertone]

RebelMan,

Any word from Classe on when the revised preamps go to production?

Also, have you been able to persuade them to support DSD?

Thanks for any info

[RebelMan]

I am reaching out on the subject tomorrow. CEDIA is coming the latter part of next week and I requested, early on, that a follow-up be forth coming from them the week prior (i.e. this week). That said I may not be given much liberty to broadcast anything until a few days prior to the show. I promised not to steal their thunder but I would like to get a jump on the details of things happening.

[leo2498]

this waiting is killing us, I hope that the next week we will get new news and the most important I hope that this news will be good for us.

[silvertone]

this waiting is killing us, I hope that the next week we will get new news and the most important I hope that this news will be good for us.

For sure, I have some $$$ set a aside for the new preamp and a pair of CAM-600 monoblocks

Audioquest's Wel Signature speaker cables and interconnects will follow to wrap up the system

[RebelMan]

Ball is in their court now.

[ultrasonus]

RebelMan,

If you get through to Classé, please ask for an update on the status of the phono board. I called Classé in June to ask whether it would be wise to buy a Rev. 1 CP-800 at that time and update later to include the phono. The person I spoke with advised me to wait, and added something like, "The implementation of the phono board on the CP-800 is still not resolved." After I hung up, I wondered if that meant they were considering bagging the phono board altogether, or possibly, the phono board might not be offered as an upgradeable on Rev. 1, but would still be an option on Rev 2 (which might have a different model number, say CP-801).

BTW, I've been lurking on this forum for some time, so hello everyone.

[leo2498]

mmm I had been looking this preamp since april of this year and when in last days of may classe said that it will be delayed again I changed this advance for the new amplifier but always Classe said that the cp800 v1 are still available so I think they not will forget its older costumers.

[RebelMan]

RebelMan,

If you get through to Classé, please ask for an update on the status of the phono board.

BTW, I've been lurking on this forum for some time, so hello everyone.

Will do and welcome aboard!

[RebelMan]

I just got a heads up to expect some answers by Monday. If there are any other requests get them to me now because it will be challenging getting any responses once CEDIA begins.

[ultrasonus]

I think they not will forget its older costumers.

Hello, Leo.

I don't intend to raise anxiety here. The fellow at Classé was clear that they would offer the upgrade board for ethernet and 192/24 to Rev. 1 owners. I don't know what his comment about the phono board meant --- maybe nothing more than they were still working out some details of how to integrate it. Let's hope we get definite information soon.

I have the factory phono stage in my CP-60 pre; it sounds great and was a real bargain at its original $500 cost. I'm hoping the CP-800 phono stage will be another winner. Vinyl is my primary music source,* I've been waiting for the upgrade since the CP-800 first came out.

* Of course, I'm looking forward to hi-res digital giving my vinyl some competition now.

[ultrasonus]

Will do and welcome aboard!

Thanks. News by Monday sounds promising; I'm ready for that.

[RebelMan]

No word yet. Hang in there folks. I'm anxious too.

[RebelMan]

I've updated the original post with the latest, piecemeal, information. I'll post more information as it comes.


In short...

The new digital board is still pending certification but the kits are (hopefully) expected to ship soon.

Design limitations prevent the CP-800 from supporting DSD and thus any ancillary implementations like DoP. Sorry silvertone.

The phono board will work with the original CP-800 but it cannot be field upgradable. I don't know (yet) if that has anything to do with the rumors you heard, ultrasonus, so I put in an inquiry as to the reasons why.

[ultrasonus]

The phono board will work with the original CP-800 but it cannot be field upgradable. I don't know (yet) if that has anything to do with the rumors you heard, ultrasonus, so I put in an inquiry as to the reasons why.

Thanks, RebelMan, for passing all this on. Even though it means I have months longer to wait for a new unit with phono, no blaming the messenger here.

The information you have on the phono board is probably the same issue I heard about. I had asked whether it was "safe" to buy a CP-800 and then have a dealer install the new digital board and phono later. I think he was trying to warn me that the phono board upgrade might be more complicated than going to a dealer. Maybe they had not yet decided back then how to handle it as a retrofit. It would be interesting to know the reason phono isolation came up so late in the design process. The original CP-800 white paper refers to a planned phono board upgrade option. I don't think it was supposed to be so difficult. Maybe it has something to do with the decision to omit galvanic isolation?

[ultrasonus]

Based on the pic of the phono board, it looks like there's a switch to select between MM and MC amplification. That's a little easier than on my CP-60 where you have to move jumpers for each channel on the PCB. But looks like we'll still have to open the case to do this.

[RebelMan]

There are switches, yes, for each channel.

[wettou]

Any word from Classe on when the revised preamps go to production? Also, have you been able to persuade them to support DSD? Thanks for any info

NO DSD support

I can sell my CP-800 less than a year old barely used $3,900

[RebelMan]

NO DSD support

It's a hardware limitation with the design. DSD downloads were irrelevant 3 years ago when the CP-800 made its debut.

[leo2498]

It's hard but all indicated that we need to wait more month to get this V2 of the CP800, I'm glad to got it a month ago.

BTW why are you thinking sell this great product? DSD it's that important?

[ultrasonus]

I would be glad to have DSD if it didn't add to the price and didn't compromise audio quality, but it's not clear that's the case. According to Classe's reasons for not supporting DSD (see RebelMan's update to his original post at the top of this thread), Classe would not support DSD even if they were starting the design from scratch today.

I have no crystal ball, but if forced to predict, I do not expect DSD to grab much market share from PCM, especially in the studio but also in high-def downloads. According to the Wikipedia article (I know, I know) on Direct Stream Digital, "... the vast majority of SACDs — especially rock and contemporary music which relies on multitrack techniques — are in fact mixed in PCM (or mixed analog and recorded on PCM recorders) and then converted to DSD for SACD mastering. ... The advent of very-high-resolution PCM media and tools e.g. DXD has led to a decrease in the uptake of DSD in the studio market." If all that's true, most music available in DSD should also be readily available in PCM format, and the PCM version is preferred as the true master. If we trust Classe's comment that most consumer DACs that support both formats first convert DSD to PCM, then there really is no reason to want DSD. That would mean converting PCM to DSD and then back to PCM (yuck) before the analog conversion. Add to that Classe's point about incompatible filtering requirements ...

I don't claim to be an expert on digital audio formats, so maybe I'm missing a good reason to make DSD a priority. But for now, it's a secondary issue for me. I'll just wait it out and and collect more information over the coming months (not too many, I hope) before making a purchase decision.

[silvertone]

RebelMan,

Thanks for all the updates, they're much appreciated.

In regards to hardware limitation being why DSD cannot be accommodated, I'm not sure I buy that argument from Classe.

For example, the QB-9 by Ayre was conceived long before the CP-800 and they have managed to support DSD.

The chipset they're using does support DSD, one would think it's only a matter of routing the DSD stream accordingly when detected, sure this may require some type of 'switch' to be added and other changes, when there's a will there's usually a way...

[silvertone]

ultrasonus,

I think you're casting a wide statement and over-simplifying the issue.

There are DSD recordings that kick the living pants out of the Hi-Res PCM counterparts.... I don't think this is even debatable, as there are probably PCM recordings that sound better than DSD.

It's all about giving the consumer the ability to enjoy both. After all, we're not taking about mass-market receivers (Marantz, Sony, etc.)....Classe plays in the Hi-Fi niche world, and I'd expect a little more.

It's not a deal breaker for me, because the unit does sound great but I think Classe has lost some of its roots.

For example, I would've loved for them to have implemented an analog volume control in the CP-800 even if that meant raising the price a few grands, it would've been totally worth it.

[RebelMan]

RebelMan,

Thanks for all the updates, they're much appreciated.

My pleasure.

In regards to hardware limitation being why DSD cannot be accommodated, I'm not sure I buy that argument from Classe.

For example, the QB-9 by Ayre was conceived long before the CP-800 and they have managed to support DSD.

The chipset they're using does support DSD, one would think it's only a matter of routing the DSD stream accordingly when detected, sure this may require some type of 'switch' to be added and other changes, when there's a will there's usually a way...

It's true the QB-9 hit the scene before the CP-800 did but it wasn't by a long shot, more like a year. In addition, it didn't support DSD out the gate either. DSD support didn't happen until very recently (July) and it requires a hardware update which requires that it be sent in. The QB-9 is a very simplistic one board, one task device. The CP-800, on the other hand, is a very sophisticated multi-board, multi-task device. The digital input board does not house the DAC so even if Classé wanted to offer an upgrade to support DSD a whole new DAC subsystem would have to be designed. And while it would be technically possible Classé states that either performance would likely suffer in some capacity or it would not be a cost effective maneuver. If it was simply a software fix, I could plead with them to include it in a future update, but sadly it's not.

For the record, Ayre did not push the DSD concept for their QB-9. In 2012 Gordon Rankin was debating whether to include it in a future Wavelength product. If it wasn't for him, the QB-9 wouldn't have morphed into the QB-9 DSD. Ayre hasn't done anything more cutting edge than Classé if that's what you are alluding.

[RebelMan]

It's not a deal breaker for me, because the unit does sound great but I think Classe has lost some of its roots.

For example, I would've loved for them to have implemented an analog volume control in the CP-800 even if that meant raising the price a few grands, it would've been totally worth it.

Lost roots? Nah. The CP-800 uses a digitally controlled analog volume control.

[ultrasonus]

Hi silvertone,

Thanks for your comments. I agree that consumer choice is good. In fact, I was suggesting that choice in software might mean having the option to download a given work in either his-res DSD or PCM. If the claim that most DSD titles were mastered in PCM is true (can't always trust what you read), then a PCM master should usually be available, and the PCM master should be as good or better than the best DSD product derived from it. Some works are mastered directly in DSD, and if enough of these are important to you, then you want DSD support. If I owned an extensive collection of SACD titles, I'd probably be more interested in support for DSD. But coming late to higher-res digital, I decided to skip SACD and go directly to server-based storage. I just didn't expect to have to wait so long for the phono option to come out so I could move on it.

I hope Classé hasn't lost their mojo. From what I've read, they did go through some difficult personnel changes that set back the CP-800 project; let's hope that's behind them. Personally, I like their strategy of pushing price-performance at a very high level, rather than cost-no-object design. I think they've been quite savvy about where to make trade-offs. There are certainly better preamps available, but the CP-800's performance is noteworthy because it's not priced at $10k+. It's also pretty nice in absolute terms.

[RebelMan]

I hope Classé hasn't lost their mojo. From what I've read, they did go through some difficult personnel changes that set back the CP-800 project; let's hope that's behind them.

I had deep concerns about this, enough to bring the subject up on two occasions. In short I was told that "there’s no question we now have the strongest, most cohesive team I’ve ever worked with" and my concerns were put to rest.

Personally, I like their strategy of pushing price-performance at a very high level, rather than cost-no-object design. I think they've been quite savvy about where to make trade-offs. There are certainly better preamps available, but the CP-800's performance is noteworthy because it's not priced at $10k+.

Agreed. Charlie Hansen once said "Anybody can make a $20,000 preamp—", implying it takes a lot more ingenuity to design a high performance piece that more can affordably enjoy.