Classe Audio to be made in Zhuhai, China

[Hdale85]

I will say again I don't like the change, it concerns me. However I wonder how much labor cost is related to assembling a SSP-800 or an amp, or a pre-amp? Let's say a SSP-800 has a MSRP of $9,500, dealer cost of between 30%-40% less of MSRP. Let's say between $5,700-$6,650 dealer cost. At this point I want to discuss the materials cost. I doubt that Classe is going to change the internal parts just because it's being assembled in China, where the internal parts come from is not known, but it's safe to say it's not Canada. Following what I think is a reasonable profit margin...I will use 40%-50% profit margin for Classe (keep in mind this includes all fixed overhead costs, advertising, insurance, etc) that leaves $2,850 $3,325 as raw cost to build a SSP-800 including labor. I don't know how long it takes to put the parts inside the chassis, but would think labor could not be more than 35% of raw cost, somewhere around $950-$1,108. In my opinion labor is more likely 10% of cost or $285-$332. IMO Classe makes no more than 10% net profit, or about $500-$650 per SSP-800. Pretty reasonable profit in the big picture of things. I realize that my numbers are at best a scientific wild ass guess. However I do job costing at the company I own, and labor/materials is something I'm used to estimating. My opinion says that at best Classe is saving $500-$1,000 by moving manufacturing to China. Some of those savings are reduced by increased raw material costs over the last several years, and since Classe market is most likely largest in the USA...shipping costs are increased. I'm almost certain the cost savings move to China nets Classe no more than $500 per unit. Likely less.

I think these figures are way off, I can't believe it costs any company 3k to build a consumer grade electronic device. If you're at all involved in DIY building of electronics, speakers, and so on you'd see this pretty easily. Honestly if it costed them that much to manufacture I'd expect them to cost closer to 15k then 9k. As hard as it may be to believe I bet production cost per unit are closer to the 1-2k range especially now that they are built in China. Most people think something like this isn't possible but most people would be greatly surprised.

[madmac]

The aspect of this debate that seems to have escaped notice is this: China has made clear its intention to supplant MY country as a world leader. I don't buy the defeatist BS stating "we can't do anything about it". That's loser talk for losers. China is the self-avowed economic enemy of my nation and my people. I won't support that regardless of savings or (mostly imaginary) "good as" quality control. I don't care if I can buy a Krell EVO for $20-if it supports my enemies I won't buy it for $.20. I don't give a crap for a 'world economy' or specious arguments put forth by those who can't comprehend this country's manufacturing potential. We need to stop rolling over for every yo-yo who wants us to hold economic hands and sing Kumbaya as a funeral dirge for America. That includes the jackasses in our government and the greedy s.o.b.s in the boardrooms. As for the Manchurian Candidate in the White House... :evil:

Wow....ok then.....sheesh !!!! 8O

[Alaric]

The 'Manchurian' thing was too good to pass up while discussing China. LOL. China is , however , America's enemy. Has been since Chiang Kai Shek was exiled to Formosa (Taiwan). Anybody who thinks they feel differently is woefully naive. Thier planning is done by the decade , if not by centuries. I don't trust them and I loathe the idea of doing business with them. They play to WIN , and we should be doing the same.

[beden1]

The essence is in the design. Manufacturing is a process that can be replicated anywhere.

Anyway, BMWs being made in South Africa is nothing new. They have been there for many years. I didn't realize how many, until I looked it up. According to wikipedia, they've been building cars there since 1968. The plant in SA has been making 3 series primarily since 94. Seems that hasn't hurt the 3 series' reputation. It's been considered the benchmark of the class all throughout that time.


As far as Classé and moving production to China. How much "manufacturing" does Classé actually do? Don't they just primarily assemble circuit boards and components from other manufacturers anyway? If that is the case, any monkey can screw in a circuit board. There is no value added there by having a canadian vs a chinese turn a screw driver.

All I know is that our 2011 BMW 335is convertible and our 2011 M3 sedan were built in Germany. I would not personally buy one built outside of Germany. What would be the point?

It's like when Volkswagon started building the bug and Jetta in Mexico and had started to have tons of problems with their cars. Same thing with the GM Tahoe and Suburbans when they switched manufacturing from Wisconsin and Texas to Mexico. Fortunately, our '08 Tahoe was one of the last built in WI and it has been a great vehicle.

[beden1]

The 'Manchurian' thing was too good to pass up while discussing China. LOL. China is , however , America's enemy. Has been since Chiang Kai Shek was exiled to Formosa (Taiwan). Anybody who thinks they feel differently is woefully naive. Thier planning is done by the decade , if not by centuries. I don't trust them and I loathe the idea of doing business with them. They play to WIN , and we should be doing the same.

That's the spirit. Instead of the people demonstrating against our banks and rich people in Wall Street, they should start demonstrating against China. At least their demands would then have some clarity.

[Alaric]

The fact that our banks had the foresight to dump all that bad paper on China (Fannie and Freddie) shows that I'm not alone in my thinking. The mess caused by the U.S. government was deflty dealt with by Wall Street banks. Instead of griping about Wall Street it would behoove our gummint to take a few lessons from those who have proven themselves smarter and more business savvy than the chumps in DC. Hijack over. Back to your regularly scheduled commentary.

[garak]

All I know is that our 2011 BMW 335is convertible and our 2011 M3 sedan were built in Germany. I would not personally buy one built outside of Germany. What would be the point?

It's like when Volkswagon started building the bug and Jetta in Mexico and had started to have tons of problems with their cars. Same thing with the GM Tahoe and Suburbans when they switched manufacturing from Wisconsin and Texas to Mexico. Fortunately, our '08 Tahoe was one of the last built in WI and it has been a great vehicle.

I doubt you could tell the difference between a German made vs a South African made 3 series. BMW constantly monitors the statistics at each plant. IIRC, the plant in south carolina actually scored the best recently. So just because it's made in Germany doesn't mean it will be better.

IMO, you don't buy a BMW because of where it's made, you buy a BMW because of the great feel and handling of the chassis. It is a driver's car, not a German made status symbol.

Back on topic, I also doubt that anyone here could tell any difference between a Canadian vs Chinese assembled Classé product. It's not like screwing in a circuit board requires any sort of craftsmanship or talent.

[Alaric]

It's not like screwing in a circuit board requires any sort of craftsmanship or talent.

Neither does stealing the spec parts for the clone factory next door and substituting counterfeit crap that is visually identical.

[garak]

Neither does stealing the spec parts for the clone factory next door and substituting counterfeit crap that is visually identical.

Ok, so since they were screwing the boards in place in Canada previously, counterfeit parts couldn't be produced before? The spec parts were probably already being made in China. Moving assembly to China makes no difference in this case.

[Alaric]

It always makes a difference. That argument holds as much water as the arguments in defense of WalMart. And "probably" isn't much of a platform.

[beden1]

I doubt you could tell the difference between a German made vs a South African made 3 series. BMW constantly monitors the statistics at each plant. IIRC, the plant in south carolina actually scored the best recently. So just because it's made in Germany doesn't mean it will be better.

IMO, you don't buy a BMW because of where it's made, you buy a BMW because of the great feel and handling of the chassis. It is a driver's car, not a German made status symbol.
Back on topic, I also doubt that anyone here could tell any difference between a Canadian vs Chinese assembled Classé product. It's not like screwing in a circuit board requires any sort of craftsmanship or talent.

I would know where it was made and that makes all of the difference to me! To me, made in Germany equates to a heritage of skilled work forces who take pride in their work. I have no feelings whatsoever as to what Made in South Africa would mean. Wild animals and the aids virus are the only things that come to my mind when thinking of Africa...and, Tarzan!

My wife and I have had many BMWs over the years starting in 1979, so please don't try and tell me what a BMW is.

[garak]

It always makes a difference. That argument holds as much water as the arguments in defense of WalMart. And "probably" isn't much of a platform.

We're not proving scientific theories here. Any reasonable person will agree that there is a high probability that the circuit boards and chips used in Classé products are already being made in China. So in this case, "probably" is reasonable. It is actually a better argument than simply stating "It always makes a difference."

Anyway the main point is that your assertion that Classé moving production to China making counterfeiting more likely is a bit naive. The parts in Classé's products are mass produced and already readily available, meaning counterfeiters already have access to these parts. Classé moving assembly to China doesn't suddenly make these parts more available.

[garak]

I would know where it was made and that makes all of the difference to me! To me, made in Germany equates to a heritage of skilled work forces who take pride in their work. I have no feelings whatsoever as to what Made in South Africa would mean. Wild animals and the aids virus are the only things that come to my mind when thinking of Africa...and, Tarzan!

My wife and I have had many BMWs over the years starting in 1979, so please don't try and tell me what a BMW is.

Ok, Mr BMW, in that case, do you disagree with my assertion that a BMW is fundamentally a driver's car first, with finely tuned handling and feel primary attributes, gadgets and luxury secondary?

[Hdale85]

Anyway the main point is that your assertion that Classé moving production to China making counterfeiting more likely is a bit naive. The parts in Classé's products are mass produced and already readily available, meaning counterfeiters already have access to these parts. Classé moving assembly to China doesn't suddenly make these parts more available.

What makes counterfeiting more likely in China is that it's a lot easier over there, meaning that no schematic is safe. They share it like it's nothing and things do get stolen quiet often and reproduced this way. This is why the market is always flooded with Chinese knock-offs. So yes I'd say that being made in China makes it much more likely to be copied then when it was made in Canada.

[garak]

What makes counterfeiting more likely in China is that it's a lot easier over there, meaning that no schematic is safe. They share it like it's nothing and things do get stolen quiet often and reproduced this way. This is why the market is always flooded with Chinese knock-offs. So yes I'd say that being made in China makes it much more likely to be copied then when it was made in Canada.

My point is that parts that are used in the Classé, such as DACs and circuit boards, which are most likely made in China already, are ALREADY available counterfeiters. Having one more electronics assembler in China makes no difference.

Now if Classé actually manufactures proprietary chips or circuit boards that are currently being made in Canada, then that is a different story. However, I don't believe that this is the case. Can somebody prove me wrong here? Additionally, if Classé does have proprietary chips or circuit boards that are only used in their products, I doubt a counterfeiter would bother counterfeiting a product that only sells a few thousand units anyway. Plus I don't believe a company of Classé size could afford to make a proprietary chip. They would have to outsource that to a chip manufacturer that is most likely in China anyway.

[beden1]

Ok, Mr BMW, in that case, do you disagree with my assertion that a BMW is fundamentally a driver's car first, with finely tuned handling and feel primary attributes, gadgets and luxury secondary?

Fundamentally, a BMW is a solid built safe car that has spirited handling and acceleration.

I bought my first BMW, a 1979 320i sedan, before most people in the US knew what they were. The week before I bought it, I came up to a light while driving my 1975 MGB and saw that a large US sedan had rear ended a BMW 320i sedan that was stopped at the traffic light. It was hit at about a 40 MPH+ impact and the BMW was crushed to it's rear window. I stopped to help out and the BMW driver was not injured. He told me about the crumple zone construction that the BMW had and I was amazed by how well it handled the collision.

My wife and I have been driving BMWs and Mercedes since then and our kids now have BMW and Audi sedans. :T

Safe driving while also having some fun! :T

[bigburner]

It really depends on how it is done, of course. I am not making any direct parallel in terms of market niche but, imho, the PSB speakers now made in China are technically, structurally and esthetically superior to the earlier Canada-made lines. This is due, in no small part, to Paul Barton spending a large part of his life going to, from and in China, himself. Also, I believe that, aside for the 800 series, all B&W production is now in China at their own factories. One can lose control but one can maintain it.

Kal has hit the nail on the head. You get good quality from China if someone from your company spends a lot of time over there ensuring that they deliver good quality. They expect you to be there. It's a sign of respect. If you're not there they will assume that you don't really care.

The other thing to consider is the degree of subcontracting that occurs in China (and in India too). You let the contract to company A who subcontracts it to a cheaper company B who subcontracts it to an even cheaper company C. If you are over there then you can ensure that this doesn't happen.

Nigel.

[bigburner]

I have no feelings whatsoever as to what Made in South Africa would mean. Wild animals and the aids virus are the only things that come to my mind when thinking of Africa...and, Tarzan!

That is not only ignorant but really insulting to our South African friends, many of whom are members of this forum.

[Alaric]

Kal has hit the nail on the head. You get good quality from China if someone from your company spends a lot of time over there ensuring that they deliver good quality. They expect you to be there. It's a sign of respect. If you're not there they will assume that you don't really care.

So babysitting them is required to forestall theft and shoddy workmanship? I don't think the point you made was the one you intended. You just proved , to my mind , that the general view of "Made In China" is accurate. If they aren't watched 24/7 they'll rob you blind and produce crap. That has nothing to do with "respect" and everything to do with dishonesty.

[smigman]

BMW and Germany, premium class and so on ...... they indeed are great cars (bare in mind i am located in EU and your BMW (overseas) is 40% cheaper than EU). Those germans really make great cars, they really do "feel" and cost different .......

But, so many recalls over the last few years - what happened/ is going on with german quality? Globalisation is going on - we are all paying something that is only used to be something!!!! They arent cutting prices - dont intend to.

Classe will never be classe, BMW will never be BMW, Apple will never be Apple

PS -had 5, 7, A8, E class, Accord, Mazda 6 ...... No cars from china but .....

[ShadowZA]

... Wild animals and the aids virus are the only things that come to my mind when thinking of Africa...and, Tarzan!

I'm not that wild anymore (I can growl but I can't roar). Jane, on the other hand, can still swing from the vine. I just drink from it.

[mjb]

lol, I've been buying BMW's since before there were any. And as for Tarzan....

This thread has lost any merit.

[beden1]

That is not only ignorant but really insulting to our South African friends, many of whom are members of this forum.

I said in my mind. I forgot to mention diamond mines.

[Kal Rubinson]

So babysitting them is required to forestall theft and shoddy workmanship? I don't think the point you made was the one you intended. You just proved , to my mind , that the general view of "Made In China" is accurate. If they aren't watched 24/7 they'll rob you blind and produce crap. That has nothing to do with "respect" and everything to do with dishonesty.

That is a very Western perspective and one that is innate in many of us. However, if we have learned anything from the globalization of business and politics, it is that our society's philosophies are not global.

[garak]

That is a very Western perspective and one that is innate in many of us. However, if we have learned anything from the globalization of business and politics, it is that our society's philosophies are not global.

The voice of reason.

[Alaric]

The inability to trust them without oversight is philosophical? I'm not buying that. It shows a cultural lack of respect on their part. It also proves to me that my culture is superior. I can be trusted to do a job to the best of my ability simply because I take pride in my work and somebody is paying me to do it-not because I might be caught if I did otherwise.
It also supports the notion of why we have superior quality manufacturing (what's left of it). Chinese junk runs a much greater risk of being Chinese junk.

[Kal Rubinson]

The inability to trust them without oversight is philosophical? I'm not buying that. It shows a cultural lack of respect on their part.

Not at all. The philosophical difference is key to understanding why we cannot trust some people in the way we trust others and, also, the key to dealing with them successfully. And this understanding should not be limited to working with foreign cultures but even with some of our compatriots. :W

[Nolan B]

So really the argument swings both way if China can produce a product as high quality as if it was made in Canada under a close eye. One thing I know for sure...this debate never existed when they were producing in Canada, and the "wonder" or "if" as a result of being made in China is enough to make me look elsewhere. In the "high end" part of the market the much of value for me is where its made. In the low end I dont mind as much.

My BMW was made in germany, and there is no way in hell id buy one made anywhere else. If BMW started making all their cars in China...they can keep them. Ill find something else.

[Alaric]

Not at all. The philosophical difference is key to understanding why we cannot trust some people in the way we trust others and, also, the key to dealing with them successfully. And this understanding should not be limited to working with foreign cultures but even with some of our compatriots. :W

In those terms , :T Although I still find the idea if dealing with China at all distasteful.

[beden1]

lol, I've been buying BMW's since before there were any. And as for Tarzan....

This thread has lost any merit.

At least it has stirred up some discussion on this forum that has been DOA of late.

[garak]

The inability to trust them without oversight is philosophical? I'm not buying that. It shows a cultural lack of respect on their part. It also proves to me that my culture is superior. I can be trusted to do a job to the best of my ability simply because I take pride in my work and somebody is paying me to do it-not because I might be caught if I did otherwise.
It also supports the notion of why we have superior quality manufacturing (what's left of it). Chinese junk runs a much greater risk of being Chinese junk.

It's posts like this that make me embarrassed to be an American. The arrogance and ignorance of this post shows that we have earned the title the ugly American.

[Hdale85]

His comment certainly sounds harsh, but I kind of get it. China is the number one country for counterfeit anything pretty much, and there has to be a reason for that.

[Alaric]

I was responding to a scenario put forth by Kal , whose views I respect-certainly in the field of audio and the sources of equipment. My response to that scenario requires no apology from me. Read Kal's last post and my response. And if it's arrogant to believe my country is better than another , too bad. What America has accomplished in 200 years , scientifically and for humanity at large , stands up to any comparison with any other nation.
Finally , there is an institutionalized governmental belief in China that it's ok to take advantage of the gwai lo. Their policy is China First. How am I a bad person for recognizing this ? Or being informed enough to know how that policy is generally implemented ? I have a quite close relationship with a relative who built factories in China and had to deal with these issues. After several years it was explained to him how the gwai lo and their factories are perceived.

[btf1980]

I said in my mind. I forgot to mention diamond mines.

Your mind needs to be expanded. It's painfully narrow.

[Alaric]

Well , beden , it appears the Diplomatic Corps won't be returning our calls anytime soon. I showed no mercy to China and poor Shadow is wondering what he ever did to us and BMW.
On that note , we may have to start looking at DIY amps!

[beden1]

Your mind needs to be expanded. It's painfully narrow.

I'm one of the 1% and becoming more narrow minded every day. Globalization is destroying/has destroyed many of our country's economies due to the outsourcing of manufacturing and jobs, as well as importing cheaper skilled labor from countries like India and China. Actually, I think it's time for all citizens of North America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Scandinavia and Slavic Europe to start demanding of their governments that we stand together and support our own. Stop the outsourcing of jobs and manufacturing to third world countries including China and India, and start supporting our own economies and people before it's too late.

[ert]

my culture is superior. I can be trusted to do a job

Generalize much? I'll keep in mind the integrity of American business owners the next time I see a "Made in the USA" speaker wire for $10k.

It's posts like this that make me embarrassed to be an American. The arrogance and ignorance of this post shows that we have earned the title the ugly American.

x2

[Blue-Eyes]

As long as the stuff (e.g. Classe, BMW, etc) will be made like the Classe, BMW standards and controlled on that standards, it makes no differences or a Classe is build in Canada or China.
Of course, wiht the same equipements, parts.

[Alaric]

Generalize much? I'll keep in mind the integrity of American business owners the next time I see a "Made in the USA" speaker wire for $10k.


x2

The discussion was , by its nature , general , and this is probably the wrong place to start flaming quality cabling. Besides , that is a totally different discussion.
I am curious as to the wealth of experience you and garak have in the area of Chinese manufacturing and trade philosophy that allows you to discount my points with nothing more substantial than a dislike for patriotic Americans?

[bigburner]

I'm not that wild anymore

A Krell driving those lovely 802Ds would make me a bit wild Lucien.

Nigel.

[slauten]

I'm a fan of The North Face jackets, they were started in Berkley, California. Lifetime warranty against defects on their clothing products. I only mention The North Face because most of their items are now made in China, or outside the USA. I own jackets made by them in the USA and vs. the China made jackets there is no difference in quality. While their jackets are not in the price range of Classe, these jackets are some of the most expensive outdoor gear you can buy. I think the comparison is relevant.

I completely understand the feelings towards the move made by Classe and I too prefer they were still made in Canada. However the fact is they are not. I understand the feelings about losing production and jobs in America, and Canada to China. We can argue all day long about this. It won't change anything. The move has been made.

My primary point was...and still is: The components used inside the box were likely never made in Canada. For the sake of discussion, having the components installed inside the box in China does not mean there will be any quality reduction. The Japanese have proven they can make the highest quality cars in the world, and then lose their edge. Americans have proven they make cars just as well as the Japanese. At the end of the day it all boils down to this: "The fish stinks at the head"
If Dave Nauber and team execute the game plan properly, and quality control metrics are in place...then made in China does not result in any change in the product made. However if quality slips then it's Dave Nauber's fault and the fish stinks at the head.

Only time will tell what the end result is. I have no doubt if any quality issues arise from the change we will know about it. Until then I'm going to hook up my designed in America and made in China power cables.

See Ya,
Steve

[mjb]

IMO it has nothing to do with where a product is made, or product quality which will no doubt stay just as high - it has to do with costs. There is only one reason to move production to China, and that is to save money. Will these savings be passed on to the customer, or will Dave Nauber be buying a Caribbean island some time soon? If they pass the savings on, they'll cheapen the brand name (very dangerous), if not, certain people can only get richer at the customers expense.

[madmac]

@mjb.....correct.....and, the quality will unfortunately not stay as high.....and this will be very likely seen in the future........ When you make/ invent a thing, get rich doing it, and then decide from a business perspective to have someone else build it for you (ie..China), the quality will decline....simply because the people being paid to do this for you simply do not care about the end result, because it's not their business or their reputation on the line. They are merely doing it for the money only.....not the passion and/or pride in the product or the end result!. It's business sadly........

[ert]

The discussion was , by its nature , general

You generalized you own work ethic to that of the entire USA and also compared the single sob story of your relative's business dealings in China to that as China as a whole. Neither of these generalizations have any merit.

I am curious as to the wealth of experience you and garak have in the area of Chinese manufacturing and trade philosophy that allows you to discount my points with nothing more substantial than a dislike for patriotic Americans?

LOL the patriotism card. Come on man. First off, one's credentials should not matter in a discussion. I've already put forth many examples of Chinese manufacturing in this thread, and you only have one sob story about your relative's business dealings. For what it's worth, I am an industrial engineer (licensed PE) with 15 years of experience and I teach manufacturing quality control. I have a wide range of experience but wont go into anything specifically unfortunately due to the contracts I have with clients. This whole "China is my enemy" fetish is frankly rather odd. You're just rationalizing your anti-China stance with any piece of evidence you can find, rather than looking at the larger picture and drawing a conclusion from it. Is China competing with the USA? Of course, but so is every other country. You might also look at the CIA's connection with industrial espionage and the unfairness in other countries it has caused over the last 50 years before holding your flag so high.

Going back a bit....

The inability to trust them without oversight is philosophical? I'm not buying that. It shows a cultural lack of respect on their part. ... It also proves to me that my culture is superior. ... It also supports the notion of why we have superior quality manufacturing (what's left of it).

Toyota North America's senior execs, plant managers, and start up teams are mostly Japanese. Does this mean that the "superior" American culture (what is that anyway?) isn't so superior if Japanese managers have to supervise the workers? No, it just means that the Japanese executives want things to be done their way do they take personal responsibility. It happens in China and it happens in the US. Companies based in one state in the US will send their own leadership to start up in another state. It's not really an unusual scenario.

I can be trusted to do a job to the best of my ability simply because I take pride in my work and somebody is paying me to do it-not because I might be caught if I did otherwise.

Let's see how long you take pride in your work when you have to stuff the same circuit board hundreds of times per day, every week for a year. You are making an incorrect comparison between unskilled workers and whatever it is you do. The issue here is simply an issue of using unskilled workers to assemble parts and not with the country in which they live.

Globalization is destroying/has destroyed many of our country's economies due to the outsourcing of manufacturing and jobs, as well as importing cheaper skilled labor from countries like India and China.

Marxist economic theories have been readily disproven in both economic theory and practice. Plant modernization technologies have automated so many manufacturing jobs that the traditional skilled workers are no longer needed. The only jobs left in manufacturing are unskilled workers, and even these are being replaced in time as automation is extended. The manufacturing jobs that China has now will not be around for very long. It's much better for America's future economic stability to have a force of semi-skilled or service driven population than one more strongly built on unskilled manufacturing.

a few supporting articles:

http://www.scdigest.com/assets/newsViews/08-06-12-2.php

http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2011/01/04/21725/

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/07/14/technology-ate-your-job.aspx

From the above links - this is an amazing example:

"In 1950, the United States Steel Corporation employed 30,000 workers at its plant in Gary, Ind. Today that factory employs only 5,000 workers. But they produce more steel: 7.5 million tons a year now, compared with 6 million tons then."

[Alaric]

First off, one's credentials should not matter in a discussion

8O

sob story of your relative's business dealings in China

Far from a sob story. His dealings were enormously successful.

Let's see how long you take pride in your work when you have to stuff the same circuit board hundreds of times per day, every week for a year

Presuming I won't care because they don't isn't a valid argument.

LOL the patriotism card

It's not a "card". It's my belief in my country and its stated ideals , and it isn't subject to ridicule by some geo-politically correct yo-yo. If beleving in my country embarrasses you we're even.