Classe Audio to be made in Zhuhai, China

[lokiguy]

I just heard that Classe Audio will be switching production from Canada to B&W Group's manufacturing facility in China. They will start the production changeover this summer, and be complete by the fall. What do you think of this move?

[Sasha99]

Not surprised

It was to be expected.....I am not particulary happy about it. Another North American road kill in globalization process. It had some sort of emotional value for me, being made here in Canada.
I guess the entire process is unstopable. Just red yesterday somewhere that some Chinese factories are being relocated to China's rural parts or even Africa.......for the reason of high labor cost in big Chinese cities....

Crazy world this is...
On the positive side, I might be able to afford CAM 600 if they are made in China.

Sasha
Ottawa, Canada

[mjb]

Sad, very sad....
On the bright side, perhaps this will mean I'll get my hands on an HDMI 1.4 upgrade board this year!!

[Industrial]

Wonder if we will see:

A: Price decreases

B: Similar pricing but more bang for your buck

C: They just make more profit

[madmac]

Wonder if we will see:

A: Price decreases

B: Similar pricing but more bang for your buck

C: They just make more profit

Answer = C: They just make more profit..........They are not doing this to lower their prices but to increase their profits. Rotel gear has been made in China for awhile now. So long as the Chinese build the gear to Rotel/ Classe specs using the same OEM quality electronic components, there should not be an issue from a consumer point of view. However, having been in the electronic component industry for many years, I can tell you there are lot's of cheap, fake, knockoff components coming out of China lately. If the company's quality control and inspection is not up to scratch, I can tell you that there is a possibility that the Chinese may attempt to save some money on their end and incorporate some of these questionable components into the products, which will result in failures. Time will tell. I have noticed from a Rotel point of view that there have been more failures since they were assembled in China. Especially from the digital processors.

[Skyblue]

Wonder if we will see:

A: Price decreases

B: Similar pricing but more bang for your buck

C: They just make more profit

Well, initially C. However as the competition do the same, then a combination of A and B.

[beden1]

Answer = C: They just make more profit..........They are not doing this to lower their prices but to increase their profits. Rotel gear has been made in China for awhile now. So long as the Chinese build the gear to Rotel/ Classe specs using the same OEM quality electronic components, there should not be an issue from a consumer point of view. However, having been in the electronic component industry for many years, I can tell you there are lot's of cheap, fake, knockoff components coming out of China lately. If the company's quality control and inspection is not up to scratch, I can tell you that there is a possibility that the Chinese may attempt to save some money on their end and incorporate some of these questionable components into the products, which will result in failures. Time will tell. I have noticed from a Rotel point of view that there have been more failures since they were assembled in China. Especially from the digital processors.

I have been looking into replacing a receiver that I have in our family room and asked my Classe dealer about Rotel, which they also carry. He said that he didn't want me to even look at it because they have been having so many problems.

Classe made in China = off my list of equipment makers. Why pay premium prices for made in China quality?

Maybe our Canadian legacy equipment will become highly sought after down the road?

[scanido]

This move is going to kill Classe's brand prestige, let alone resale value of current items. Hopefully Management reconsiders.

[gerardhn]

No USA/European super prices (almost a small car!!!!) for cheap Chinese labor products!

We should refuse to buy!

[madmac]

No USA/European super prices (almost a small car!!!!) for cheap Chinese labor products!

We should refuse to buy!

Let's be realistic and admit that most audio electronics are manufactured in China/ Japan. I would not necessarily not buy them because they are made there. I would not buy them if the quality and reliability becomes an issue.

Reliability/ performance is key in establishing if a mfr. is worth buying in the long run. A receiver, amp, or processor should last pretty much as long as you would care to use it actually. My CD player is over 10 years old and going strong. If it died tomorrow, I would not feel cheated. If stuff starts failing within two years, THEN we have a problem Houston !!

[gerardhn]

Madmac,

If manufactured in China, 7.000 euro price for a cdp or amp can not be justified.

I mind less if the money goes to "expensive" labor.....I mind if the money goes in the pocket of a few owners.

My opinion

[Skyblue]

First of all, japan started in the same way. everybody laughed at their cameras back in the 60's and 70's. They are not laughing any more. THey are out of business.

Similarly, with the Chinese. Many of their products suck heavily quality wise. However, there are plenty of them. And some of them holds nobel prices.. Be assured that it is possible to find better engineers in china than they currently employ in canada. And probably a lot cheaper.

Now, if they actually do find those specially talented people is another matter. I do however believe that in the long term, there is no way to compete with cheap chinese labor at western pay levels.. So Classe probably had to move sooner or later. How they execute this move, is now to be seen.

Incidentially, I also considered not buying any of the new b&w 800 series speakers as they moved the wood production from a high pay/high skills country (denmark) to a lower skills/lower pay country (uk). But we shall see. Maybe they'll learn yet. Certainly it wasn't painless.

[mjb]

I ain't paying the same price for something thats been produced for a tenth, and probably built by a 12 year old who lives on less than 10 bucks a month. I do not support the exploitation of cheap/child labour, especially to make a few people rich, which is the only reason to shift production to China. Our strict labour and enviromental laws mean its just too costly to make anything in the west anymore. The brand name will suffer, no doubt about it. If I'm wrong, enlighten me.

[Skyblue]

I ain't paying the same price for something thats been produced for a tenth, and probably built by a 12 year old who lives on less than 10 bucks a month. I do not support the exploitation of cheap/child labour, especially to make a few people rich, which is the only reason to shift production to China. Our strict labour and enviromental laws mean its just too costly to make anything in the west anymore. The brand name will suffer, no doubt about it. If I'm wrong, enlighten me.

Well, until you can provide evidence that it will be built by 12 year olds, then I will assume that you are in fact wrong. This is just pure speculation on your part. They may also be produced by engineers with MIT level education, but low wages due to low taxes and low cost of living.

[beden1]

Well, until you can provide evidence that it will be built by 12 year olds, then I will assume that you are in fact wrong. This is just pure speculation on your part. They may also be produced by engineers with MIT level education, but low wages due to low taxes and low cost of living.

Whether they are 12 year old Chinese laborers working on the assembly lines or not, the skilled and no doubt loyal workers at Classe in Canada will be out-of-work, and they themselves along with their families will suffer.

This has been happening far too long with too many products, and it has ruined our own work forces and economy. I decided to draw my line in the sand many years ago, and try my best to buy anything that I can that is made in North America.

I was watching a show on CNBC about how different countries deal with garbage. In China, their people are literally living in a sea of garbage. There are not enough landfills to deal with more than 30% of their total waste, and the ones they do have don't operate efficiently. With that mentality and lifestyle, garbage in and garbage out.

In the case with audio electronics, hopefully at least McIntosh is still made here.

[gerardhn]

I think we have all the same opinion and feelings on this subject.
If Classe want to go chinese for saving money ......they should present themselves as buy 7000 $ amp "made in China".
We will make our conclusion......

[specialized]

In the case with audio electronics, hopefully at least McIntosh is still made here.[/QUOTE]



Too bad their quality seem to be lacking.. They are selling C48 or C50 with marketing Hype that support 32 bit/192 Khz and that at least on USB 24/96, and users who got it found out that it's (on usb) 16/44 and peace of paper where McIntosh say that they work on firmware upgrade where that would be supported.. (it's verry usefull with a lot of hq 24/96 flacs to be able to play on USB without needing to buy bit transparent audio card with optical/spdif out)

this is quoute from other forum (if u browse u'll find it, im not sure if im allowed to put links to other forums..)

"For those of us using Macintosh computers, 24/96 is the maximum output of the mini TOSLINK or the standard TOSLINK on the Mac Pro. I'm anxiously awaiting the firmware updates so I can start playing some of my 24/192 material on USB. Now we're hearing June timeframe? Must've been a bigger job than McEngineering expected. "



or this one :

"They politely did not say so much about the dac, but if you read the full dac measurements on the web you will see that it performed like a budget level dac - with the exception of excellent performance wrt jitter.

Very much the same comments from a Norwegian magazine testing the c50 and mc452, but they did not provide measurements.
"



I expect if we pay premium money to get premium service and products.. I must say that i owned peace of McIntosh which i sold (for example all knobs was so bad decentered, (i have pictures if u like) Didnt mess the sound but still They can use more attention how they assembly for money they ask ..).
Also in premium component (McIntosh C2300 ), they use super cheap chinese tubes.. So a lot of users have to upgrade to get the real sound (and 2 tubes in my piece failed after 6 months. Im not saying that Mcintosh is bad, but they are a bit too much marketing and too much arogant and overpriced.

Seem that's it's not that important where is something produced but it's important how many details are really put in that creation, quality control and not how much marketing they payed.. I would always support products with a lot of attention of details and with really good support (i must say positive things about Krell, they send me for free speakers binding posts for my 10 Years old Krell FPB-300C) (one of them broke and i wanted to buy, they just asked for my address. I must say i got it second hand, and im living in Europe). With that kind of service (really high quality), would beat low quality way of working (like most of chinese probably are) and would deserve premium price.

If u ask me u should be proud with Made in USA companys like Benchmark (very good products, very good priced, and very honest ...)..


Greetings

Darko

[ASilva]

If this is true, it's a real shame and disappoitment. I think quality will suffer specially if production is not controled entirelly by Classe, we all know that there are factories in China that make HIFI gear for different brand names using allways the same design!

Cheaper labor costs?? Do the workers at Classe all drive Mercedes and Porsche? In my opinion there is more than just labor costs!

And I don't think we will see price decreases. We didn't see that with Rotel, B&W 600 and CM series nor with many other brands.

I found this article quite interesting...

[URL=http://southwerk.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/american-companies-forced-to-move-to-china/URL]

[wettou]

This if it is true I will never buy another Classé product might as well buy a Marantz and change it every three years.

Hopefully my SSP-800 will last 10 years and so will the amps

[wxmanunr]

I just heard that Classe Audio will be switching production from Canada to B&W Group's manufacturing facility in China. They will start the production changeover this summer, and be complete by the fall. What do you think of this move?

I will never consider Classe again, if this occurs. I don't mind purchasing mass market products for a reasonable price, but there is no way in heck that I'll spend over $5k on high end audio products made so cheaply.

I guess this is a sign that high end audio is on the way out. Very sad.

wxmanunr

[Srrndhound]

there is no way in heck that I'll spend over $5k on high end audio products made so cheaply.

You mean made inexpensively, no? Or have you heard some details on product redesigns or component substitutions specifically due to the new location?

I guess this is a sign that high end audio is on the way out.

How so? When products are too expensive to garner a market, they go away. Maybe this is way of expanding the affordability of high end products.

There is no basis to assume that the quality of the finished products will be any different. That is a matter for Classe to control. I've been to hundreds of CE manufacturing facilities all over the world, toured their production lines and talked with their engineers, and I can tell you that the product quality has very little to do with their location.

[gerardhn]

Srrndhound,

I agree, I disagree.

I just come back to Holland after 4 years of China stay to build new factory.

If Chinese are not controlled 1000% on every step.... they will make rubbish, put cheap stuff in ... etc.

One of the little chinese I learned beacause I had to use it very day during construction: this is little boys work!

So lesson for me: horny -only spreadsheet looking- financial manager is only putting labor cost of 200-400 €/ month in his spreadsheet and advices his CEO : China is the way to go to make more profit dear boss. (pls give me bonus)

And so decision is made. No more big wisdom behind top decisions.

[Mark_NZ]

Call me old fashioned, but I grew up in the era when you wanted top notch, but good value hi-end gear, you bought American/Canadian electronics, British loudspeakers and Japanese home-theater products.
To preempt misinterpretation, my choice of gear is not primarily based on brand, but on sound quality, construction quality and engineering excellence. But heritage and reputation is important in hi-end in terms of long-term support and re-sell value.
Hence I have gravitated to particular brands that combine these attributes. I have Marantz AV gear and SACD players, Jeff Rowland preamp, B&W loudspeakers. However I am keen to upgrade my current amplifiers to a top-notch hi-end American/Canadian brand and the latest Classé amplifiers are very appealing.
But moving Classé manufacturing to China is very disappointing news. I do understand that manufacturing hi-fi gear in China does provide the opportunity to bring good hi-fi level gear at lower price point to the masses. But does this mean that the Classé brand is been positioned downmarket? 8O

[btf1980]

Has anyone asked the OP where he heard his information? If it's one thing I know about this forum though, it's never to take anything with a grain of salt. The rumor mill is almost 100% accurate here!

[HedgeHog]

I guess no one that's complaining buys any Apple products.

[bigburner]

Call me old fashioned, but I grew up in the era when you wanted top notch, but good value hi-end gear, you bought American/Canadian electronics, British loudspeakers and Japanese home-theater products.
To preempt misinterpretation, my choice of gear is not primarily based on brand, but on sound quality, construction quality and engineering excellence. But heritage and reputation is important in hi-end in terms of long-term support and re-sell value.
Hence I have gravitated to particular brands that combine these attributes. I have Marantz AV gear and SACD players, Jeff Rowland preamp, B&W loudspeakers. However I am keen to upgrade my current amplifiers to a top-notch hi-end American/Canadian brand and the latest Classé amplifiers are very appealing.
But moving Classé manufacturing to China is very disappointing news. I do understand that manufacturing hi-fi gear in China does provide the opportunity to bring good hi-fi level gear at lower price point to the masses. But does this mean that the Classé brand is been positioned downmarket? 8O

Well Mark, I think that the West, particularly our American friends, underestimate China at their peril if they do not believe that China can produce high quality products. Furthermore they can do it at a superior price point. If they're not delivering some products to a high quality this year they'll be doing it next year without a doubt.

Nigel.

PS Jeff Rowland and Marantz eh? That's interesting!

[btf1980]

Looks like the original poster was right. Jeff Dorgay from Tone Audio confirmed it on the Hoffman forums. He says he will have an interview set up next week.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=6495529&postcount=51

[gerardhn]

He, maybe thats why CP800 is relatively put cheap in the market (made in China) and delayed and delayed???

[beden1]

He, maybe thats why CP800 is relatively put cheap in the market (made in China) and delayed and delayed???

They are trying to sift through the garbage to find the assembly manual! 8O

[wettou]

ALL MANUFACTURING IS MOVING TO CHINA

The rational is increased profitability and also the Equity group is putting the company for sale. Last year they did close to 50M in revenue from Apple

Maybe Harman will acquire them :W

[ert]

Made in China does not automatically mean low quality components or build. Many of the electronic components used in Classe electronics are made in China or Mexico. The design and assembly are done in the Canada. However, as many have said, the move to China should result in lower production costs, but probably wont translate to lower MSRP. Since Rotel are manufactured in China, B&W is probably consolidating their electronics manufacturing in this move. In all likelyhood the transition will be transparent wrt build quality.

[wettou]

Made in China does not automatically mean low quality components or build. Many of the electronic components used in Classe electronics are made in China or Mexico. The design and assembly are done in the Canada. However, as many have said, the move to China should result in lower production costs, but probably wont translate to lower MSRP. Since Rotel are manufactured in China, B&W is probably consolidating their electronics manufacturing in this move. In all likelyhood the transition will be transparent wrt build quality.

Yes and no, just higher profits for Classé, but I would never pay that kind of money for made in China :E

I would rather buy North American, McIntosh any one :B

[Antonkk]

RIP Classe.

[beden1]

ALL MANUFACTURING IS MOVING TO CHINA

The rational is increased profitability and also the Equity group is putting the company for sale. Last year they did close to 50M in revenue from Apple

Maybe Harman will acquire them :W

I spoke with a dealer about upgrading the A/V system in our family room and got to talking about Classe moving their manufacturing to China. They are not thrilled with the news, at all!

If I read this article correctly, it looks like Sony is getting out of the higher end TV business and are outsourcing their manufacturing to produce sets for the mass markets (sold in Walmart).

http://hdguru.com/sony-begins-the-shift-from-hdtv-maker-to-provide/4589/#more-4589

What a world we are going to be living in! :E

[shstrang98]

What bothers me about this whole transition to made in china is that it seems to not have any end in site. Made in china is fine for NAD, Cambridge, Pioneer, HK, etc but it looks like sooner or later even premium brands such as Bryston, Anthem (already has Chinese receivers) Audio Research and McIntosh will at some point follow the same path. Then there's Krells expensive stuff (not just that chinese int amp and cd player), Rowland, Manley, Pass Labs, Levinson, etc may even end up being made in china.

High end audio gear is something to aspire to same day be able to afford. For me and probably many others that means premium quality gear made in N America be it Canada, USA, Norway, UK, Germany whatever.

IN the past there was always an alternative to lower end gear but now that looks to be going away.

On another note I appreciate how no one on this forum has put down anyone for bringing this point. On other ones people that say they are unhappy about moving production to China for stuff like this are often vilified.

[Kal Rubinson]

For me and probably many others that means premium quality gear made in N America be it Canada, USA, Norway, UK, Germany whatever.

North America is expanding.

[shstrang98]

Originally Posted by shstrang98
For me and probably many others that means premium quality gear made in N America be it Canada, USA, Norway, UK, Germany whatever.

North America is expanding.

Oh yeah ha ha. What I meant to say is ...

For me and probably many others that means premium quality gear made in N America be it Canada or USA and places such as Norway, UK, Germany whatever.

How's that? I had to finish dinner and bathe my baby girl and typed a little too fast. My wife was saying "hurry up."

[wettou]

And then you wonder why North America has so much unemployment

[shstrang98]

And then you wonder why North America has so much unemployment.

What a kind response! And I haven't even revealed I'm from Louisiana yet.

The civility didn't last long did it.

[Kal Rubinson]

I had to finish dinner and bathe my baby girl and typed a little too fast. My wife was saying "hurry up."

OK. That explains a lot. :W

[Alaric]

What a kind response! And I haven't even revealed I'm from Louisiana yet.

The civility didn't last long did it.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I happen to agree with you. Well put.

[ert]

Made in china is fine for NAD, Cambridge, Pioneer, HK, etc but it looks like sooner or later even premium brands such as Bryston, Anthem (already has Chinese receivers) Audio Research and McIntosh will at some point follow the same path.

50+ years ago the label "Made in Japan" meant bad quality. Today it is a mark of excellence in quality manufacturing. Times are changing. Modern manufacturing facilities in China are capable of producing components that rival those made in Japan, Korea, US or Europe. However the variability is still very high, meaning we also have lots of mediocre and poor products coming out of China.

High end audio companies can continue to distinguish themselves by providing high quality products and high quality service. The later will be the main factor that separates them from other "Made in China" brands. As long as I know that I can send in warranty repairs after 10 years and have it fixed, I have no problem spending a little extra for the premium brands.

That said, if the choice came down to two similar products, I would purchase those domestically produced.

[gerardhn]

China, chinese thinking, cannot be compared to Japanese.
Foreign quality systems and continuous checking whether the procedures are followed are required in China.
Else you get rubbish.
Japan developped itself and improved quality and quality systems themselves.

[Skyblue]

China, chinese thinking, cannot be compared to Japanese.
Foreign quality systems and continuous checking whether the procedures are followed are required in China.
Else you get rubbish.
Japan developped itself and improved quality and quality systems themselves.

In my understanding, the japanese have always been perfectionists in all things they do. Chinese people I see more as drunken gamblers. Trying to get the most out of life

[wettou]

No insult please the reason to move to China is purely economics