Cedia 2010

[RebelMan]

My Response:
An SSP is not the same as a dedicated two channel preamp. We all ready discussed that in past responses. The all in one box like the SSP800 is a great multichannel system. That is why I bought an SSP 600 a few years back. We are discussing apples and oranges. Look at any high end company that wants the best in two channel sound. They have a dedicated preamp - not an all in one box component like the SSP 600/800. You can feel good that your SSP800 is a nice all in one box, but not the same as a dedicated preamp. I have listened to both, I have discussed with my dealer and I have also discussed with the folks from Classe. I guess we are all wrong and Rebelman is right? The bottom line is that the Classe gear is outstanding that’s why my whole system is Classe. We are all entitled to our opinions right? We will have to see what the CP 800 sounds like and if it is better I will buy it!

Not so! This is a misguide perception that is perpetuated by people that have forgotten or never understood what it means to be "stereo". Stereo by definition does not mean a two-channel pre-amplifier. It means a three dimensional soundscape.

Historically stereo was described by a system that utilized THREE channels NOT two. So in theory a multi-channel system, like the SSP-800, can be superior to any two-channel system given that the same level of care and attention to detail, design and construction is paid to it. What REALLY separates the audio performance of a two-channel pre-amplifier from a multi-channel pre-amplifier is cost and cost alone. Yes, that's it!

Don't you think Classe' has the wherewithal to build a multi-channel pre-amplifier that consists of all the exact same hardware and circuit topology that a two-channel pre-amplifier has? Of course they do. They did that with the SSP-800 and in so doing leapfrogged over the CP-700. Now Classe' has the opportunity to leapfrog (again) over the SSP-800 with the introduction of the CP-800 and simultaneously appease stalwart consumers that are guided by perception and not reality.

The reality is THREE channels are better than two and I have yet to hear any two-channel system (and I have heard some of the very best anywhere) that can faithfully approximate a 100+ piece full orchestra, PERIOD. Two-channel, as good as it has become doesn't come close enough and it never will. THAT's why I limit most of my listening to Jazz tracks on a pair of 800D because they can do a decent enough job to make the presentation a believable one. They are, however, in a paired configuration, insufficient with Classical performances.

Why do you suppose Abbey Road Studios, among others, use three channels for these type of recordings? It's because three is better than two when reproducing "stereo". The performance of a multi-channel system is ONLY limited to budget NOT to design.

Listen and you will hear as John Debney scores a sound track on THREE 800D NOT TWO. (The third is to the left and can't be seen but it is there I assure you.) B&W says listen and you will see. I say open your mind and you will hear.

[RebelMan]

It sounds like you are a multi-channel TV/video guy and that is fine. I like to watch movies as well. For the best in two channel music you need a dedicated preamp and a TT.

I am a two-channel guy through and through (when it comes to music). However, I am also experienced enough to know what the limitations are and where they lie and I am not one to fall for the propaganda.

[rickc]

Rebelman: What are you smoking!!!
Your three speaker analogy / BS is ridiculous! Let me know where you live and I will come in and help you set up a two speaker system that sounds twice as good as any three speaker system. Maybe you need to go to a high-end audio show and tell me how many manufactures set up a three speaker front end for their demos!!! Like the Rocky Mountain show etc! To me the most natural sounding system is a two speaker set up.

Just my 2 cents

[Kal Rubinson]

Rebelman: What are you smoking!!!
Your three speaker analogy / BS is ridiculous! Let me know where you live and I will come in and help you set up a two speaker system that sounds twice as good as any three speaker system. Maybe you need to go to a high-end audio show and tell me how many manufactures set up a three speaker front end for their demos!!! Like the Rocky Mountain show etc! To me the most natural sounding system is a two speaker set up.

Just my 2 cents

Noted as representative of outdated thinking, even though the 3channel requirement for "stereo" dates back to the first half of the last century.

[gerardhn]

Coming back to money and those happy Americans who can buy so cheaply.

Rebelman,

I think you are clever.
If the price is say 5.000 USD in your country ...... we have to pay here 10.000 USD. (that is the amount of euro calculated back to dollar)
If you would be able to get 230 V amps there.. I see an opportunity to earn/save something.!
There is too much fat (=profit) in the european price. Market must punish them.
So......

[RebelMan]

Rebelman: What are you smoking!!!
Your three speaker analogy / BS is ridiculous! Let me know where you live and I will come in and help you set up a two speaker system that sounds twice as good as any three speaker system. Maybe you need to go to a high-end audio show and tell me how many manufactures set up a three speaker front end for their demos!!! Like the Rocky Mountain show etc! To me the most natural sounding system is a two speaker set up.

Just my 2 cents

LOL, I don't smoke dude. Seriously, though I do think there is an unfortunate tendency for some enthusiasts to get a little too religious about the subject of stereo reproduction. Clearly your passionate about this hobby, as am I and as are others and that is good. But some objectivism is required if you are going to continue to grow your listening skills. Like anything else which takes time to learn, listening is a continual process of improvement and you will only get better at it if you keep an open mind on the subject. If you mistakenly think you have mastered the skillset or you think it is unnecessary to venture past your comfort zone because of popular opinion then all you'll be left with is just your beliefs and that is bad. From your response it is clear that you do not have the exposure required to comment intelligently about the subject. You only offered an emotional retort and that is sad.

Many years ago I would have been more inclined to take up residency in your closed little world but I have since learned that would have been shortsighted. Though I would have faulted the availability of resources for those restrictions more so than I would any stubbornness. Nowadays the means to reproduce stereo with three-channels has been made more accessible than ever before. So why then do I (and the shows you deferred to) profess music with only two-channels? The answers are many but I'll give you four. The first is cost. There is an additional expense to add and mix a third channel. Second is real estate. You need the room height and the floor space to add a third channel. Third is content. Most media is mastered with only two-channels in mind and three-channel mixes have been genre dependent. Forth is compromise. Most people are wiling to accept two-channels as being good enough especially when they consider the challenges presented in the first three (or they are unaware).

I have heard some spectacular two-channels systems but unless you have been in a studio where the artist and sound engineer were present to demonstrate between that which is actually played and how it sounds in the same room replayed through a pair of speakers or a trio you don't have a clue what is missing and what you are talking about. The CLOSEST APPROXIMATION to a musical performance by STEREO REPRODUCTION can ONLY be done with a proper and complete THREE-CHANNEL configuration and system and that cannot be refuted no matter what you choose to believe.

[aarsoe]

Well, I was waiting for the CP-800 as I did get a hint that it was coming. However now looking at the specs, I think I wil order the SSP-800 in stead.
Not that I dont like the features Of the CP-800, but just don't like them enough.
Ipod interface? Stopped doing that almost 2 years ago.
Ethernet and streaming? I have Sonos and Spotify - better interface and 320 kb Ogg Vorbis.
Love all the other things, but right now I see the CP-800 as a potential add on for my summer time itch. :lol:

[beden1]

What would have excited me, is if the CP-800 was a three channel digital pre-amp. Aside from going the very expensive Meridian route, what is a quality system that is capable of producing a three channel presentation?

[sikoniko]

What would have excited me, is if the CP-800 was a three channel digital pre-amp. Aside from going the very expensive Meridian route, what is a quality system that is capable of producing a three channel presentation?

I think it would come down to idenfitying if there is enough interest in 3 channel to warrant the inclusion of the extra channel...

[wettou]

I have heard some spectacular two-channels systems but unless you have been in a studio where the artist and sound engineer were present to demonstrate between that which is actually played and how it sounds in the same room replayed through a pair of speakers

I listened to FOCAL Grand Utopia III driven by Goldmund Telos 5000 and Mimesis 32( Total cost +$500K when one include the silver Nordost).

and in the other room was

Wilson Alexandria 2 driven by two Boulder 2050 monoblocks and electronics ($500K)

Yes it was outstanding but to be honest unless you have that kind of $$$$ and are willing to stay at the exact location of the sweet spot and in addition have a engineered room then you are better off with multichannel SACD 5.1

With five 802D you will have an amazing sound stage ask Kal

Now if I ever win the lottery I might indulge myself with FIVE FOCAL Grand Utopia III and a room full of Goldmund :B

[Kal Rubinson]

What would have excited me, is if the CP-800 was a three channel digital pre-amp. Aside from going the very expensive Meridian route, what is a quality system that is capable of producing a three channel presentation?

Where are you going to get 3channel recordings? IMHO, the true value of a 3 channel system is with discrete signals for each channel. That, btw, was the basis of the original contention that a minimum of 3 channels was required for true "stereo," no with a derived center signal. Once mixed down to 2 channels, complete recovery is impossible.

[Srrndhound]

What would have excited me, is if the CP-800 was a three channel digital pre-amp. Aside from going the very expensive Meridian route, what is a quality system that is capable of producing a three channel presentation?

SSP-800.

[Birdy]

Coming back to money and those happy Americans who can buy so cheaply.

Rebelman,

I think you are clever.
If the price is say 5.000 USD in your country ...... we have to pay here 10.000 USD. (that is the amount of euro calculated back to dollar)
If you would be able to get 230 V amps there.. I see an opportunity to earn/save something.!
There is too much fat (=profit) in the european price. Market must punish them.
So......

You can add 1 for me! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[style]

I agree with Birdy :W :W

------
@wettou:
go see this setup.....http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/fo...ic=8173&st=105

The Goldmund is a good brand nothing to say but inside is a lot of Pioneer !!!!

[Birdy]

Rebelman.

I was so lucky to sell my 500 preamp some weeks ago. So now I have my choice. A sale 700 or new 800.
You expect 800 to be better for 2 ch? 800 doesnot have the outside E-box which is also an advantage. Plus it has some nice options.
I wonder what € price will be.

gerardhn,

if you want the market to punish them as said a bit above, you shouldn't buy..... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

After all WE are the market! :W :W :W :W :W

[style]

@Brooks,

I'm very happy with te 803Di too and a pair of 802Di will be too much for my room....
in place of the 803d you can see other speaker: the wilson are very good....but I have listen and I agree very much the Vienna speakers.
the "big" Music is amazing but is too very expenseive...... the Beethoven Concert Grand are very, very good. they are not too much expensive ..available in piano black and they have a great sound...looks similar at the CM9 but the sound is at another level!!!

Style

[wettou]

RebelMan

Glad to read you again, will you ever publish your review of the SSP-800 8O

Thanks for the great pictures :T

[wettou]

I agree with Birdy :W :W

------
@wettou:
go see this setup.....http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/fo...ic=8173&st=105

The Goldmund is a good brand nothing to say but inside is a lot of Pioneer !!!!

Cool site where did you see that "The Goldmund is a good brand nothing to say but inside is a lot of Pioneer"

[style]

Hi wettou,

with a big surprese from self a industry near my city make a piece for Goldmund and are from Pioneer.

You can make the same question in other forum and is not a new....

style

[btf1980]

Another vid of Dave Nauber talking about the CP800. A little under 6 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGuWvOQMcFY

[Birdy]

Another vid of Dave Nauber talking about the CP800. A little under 6 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGuWvOQMcFY

Funny that he says he prefers Iphone + CP800 iso CDP 502..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

[RebelMan]

RebelMan

Glad to read you again, will you ever publish your review of the SSP-800 8O

Thanks for the great pictures :T

There were some quality assurance issues that I had to contend with first and my review will explain this. So yes, I have every intention too.

[RebelMan]

Funny that he says he prefers Iphone + CP800 iso CDP 502..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

Really? Not at all should you be. As he stated the source data would be "full resolution" and traverse a simplified signal path. Considering the principle engineer (Alan Clark) responsible for the improved audio stages of the CDP-202 is also instrumental in the design of the CP-800 and you'll understand why too. My review of the SSP-800 touches on this as well. Too bad Dave let the controversial cat out of the bag before I could.

[mjb]

Funny that he says he prefers Iphone + CP800 iso CDP 502..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

The iPhone can store and digitally output Apple Lossless files, and as the device is solid state, there's none of the mechanical transport limitations to worry about. I would expect the iPhones' bit-stream to be at least as good as a CDP-502.

My review of the SSP-800 touches on this as well. Too bad Dave let the controversial cat out of the bag before I could.

But not via USB, as the SSP-800 doesn't have this option. This might have been the point Dave was making with the CP-800. Can you link to your review please?

[wettou]

There were some quality assurance issues that I had to contend with first

Tell me about it, so did I and am still waiting for fixes in software

my review will explain this. So yes, I have every intention too.

Any timing?

[wettou]

Another vid of Dave Nauber talking about the CP800. A little under 6 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGuWvOQMcFY

Cool now why couldn't them do that with the SSP-800 !!!! I guess using a mac mini with HDMi output should produce the same result :lol:

[RebelMan]

But not via USB, as the SSP-800 doesn't have this option. This might have been the point Dave was making with the CP-800.

Correct, though I was referring to similar conclusions but using a different type of connection.

[FreddeR]

You will be able to change the new lcd interfaceskin to the old design. So the CP-800s screendesign will match todays components. Nice. Because i think the old design looks better. Do want!

[RebelMan]

I have some post CEDIA information that I would like to share. I think it would make the most sense to break the information into separate threads since they could take a life of their own over time. Be on the lookout for HDMI 1.4 Upgrade Kit and Official CP-800 Thread and a comment to the Official SSP-800 Thread.