Moving towards SSP 800

[Nolan B]

I need some advice.

Ultimately i want to buy a SSP 800, but with recent renos and other factors I dont have 8k I can drop at the moment. The problem is seeing my 5100 out on the open on its own creates a huge hole for a class processor

Currently I have a rotel 1069 and HDMI from all my sources works perfect. I am thinking that after I get the new Oppo I can use it to decode the new audio formats and SACD/ DVD A then run analog to a SSP 600 or 300. I wonder how much better if any the Rotel is over the Oppo at this.

All my other sources including Mac mini, xbox, TV and apple TC will benefit from the SSP 600 or 300 over the Rotel im sure. I can just use my HDMI switcher for HDMI 1080p.



The other thing I have to contemplate are my speakers. I know the 800 is overkill for my FPMs, but one day I will change them. Problem is I doubt i will ever buy huge speakers so i will have to find very good sounding and good looking bookshelf or floor standings. In the mean time is it even worth the initial step of SSP 600 or 300 before the 800 for sound quality improvements on something like my speakers? I supposed I could borrow and demo, but thats a lot of work and will only go that route if get the feeling its worth while.

On a side note when to do end up buying the 800 I am sure I will have the best sounding FPMs in the world before I change them. I will probably be the only person with the world with FPMs and a SSP 800.

so much to consider.

[alebonau]

if the rotel 1069 is doing all you want, then perhaps do need to consider on just what gains upgrading to the ssp800 or alternatively something a lot cheaper in much newer the rotel 1570 or something else much cheaper for instance ? $8k is a lot to shell out and I guess you need to decide if spending that sort of cash is goign to bring any real gains with what you have ?

your best bet if wanting to explore that avenue is to demo and compare. for starters maybe seek out some demoes instore by taking your 1069 in and compare with some other options to see what gains to be had. perhaps then from there if want to go further see if your dealer is helpfull enough to demo those options in home. Its really the only way to go if looking for answers...

though in my opinion, the speakers the room they are in and power amp driving are perhaps the biggest contributor to the sound you will acheive. for av the pre used and source are a lot more subtle in the gains with lot more diminishing returns in the dollars spent there.

personally in your situation, I would stick with the rotel and upgrade your front stage. you can get top class bookshelf speakers and also some excellent centre speakers around. and then consider the room, a lot of hard reflective surfaces around in the pics I've seen of your room and perhaps some opportunity of some very good gains to be made there in the sound quality stakes. Especially if willing to introduce some room treatments, soft furnishings etc and look at overall setup to maximise

if it is 2ch wise you are keen to make gains, a relatively simple upgrade can get you there with even your 1069, with jsut adding a 2ch pre with ht bypass and perhaps adding a better 2ch source. a heap of options there with either of those if something your keen to explore.

good luck with things

[wettou]

$8k is a lot to shell out and I guess you need to decide if spending that sort of cash is goign to bring any real gains with what you have ?

Yes it is a lot of money, but think about how good it looks and sound :B

though in my opinion, the speakers the room they are in and power amp driving are perhaps the biggest contributor to the sound you will acheive. for av the pre used and source are a lot more subtle in the gains with lot more diminishing returns in the dollars spent there.

Personally in your situation, I would stick with the rotel and upgrade your front stage. you can get top class bookshelf speakers and also some excellent centre speakers around. and then consider the room, a lot of hard reflective surfaces around in the pics I've seen of your room and perhaps some opportunity of some very good gains to be made there in the sound quality stakes. Especially if willing to introduce some room treatments, soft furnishings etc and look at overall setup to maximize

Yes I could not agree more

First and foremost get good software good recordings and movies

Second get the best speakers you can afford 60% of your budget go with monitors and a good subwoofer

Third take care of the room acoustics is 50% of the sound....

There are great deals for the SSP-600 and 300 if you don't have top notch speakers DD tru HD or DTS Master Audo won't sound any better than DD or DTS

[Nolan B]

There are great deals for the SSP-600 and 300 if you don't have top notch speakers DD tru HD or DTS Master Audo won't sound any better than DD or DTS

welll in my experience you dont need top notch speakers to realize he difference between lossy and lossless.

[style]

Nolan,

I new front speakers with a SSP800 is your last (around ~...)

I have the 803D: I was in the optic to go wit the 82D but wehn I have connect the SSP with the CA5200 or 5100(no difference what for ampli, the PRE make THE difference.

I and other members with the SSP don't have never listen ex. a 803d "delivery" so great performance" kike before. the idea the go versus â uodate the 803D to 802D is forget..
my 803D don't have never sound so like grreat!!!

Sure you can buy a SSP600 (the SSP300 uhm.. no xlr, no a lot of many others possibility...NOthanks go away with the 1069)
--> the SSP600 can be for $. 3500-4000 max. (ex demo, not a units "hard used") can be one alternative..the SSP600&CA5100. the Oppo (I will buy this bluray player correct?) and a separate viode processor = :T

But I think only that if the SSP800 is in your head go with this one...
I will be very satistact......if you go with a SSP600 in a paar month you go say sh@@ why i don't have buy the 800...

Better to spend only once for the unit you want rather than spend on other solutions that do not convince you ....

Who spends more less scatter!!!!

Style

[Ken49r]

Vancouver,
I will add my 2 cents to your options.

Upgrade the pre/pro and as you said "I will have the best sounding FPMs".

I'm not really a believer in the "get the best speakers you can afford 1st" theory for every situation. Since you already have a high end amplifier it will only benefit by matching the appropriate pre/pro. What speaker wouldn't benefit from that combo and produce better results? It would definitely show what a speaker is fully capable of.
Living in Canada I'm sure you have many speaker retailers up there. Once you have the missing link in your electronics chain you could get a lot of enjoyment demoing speakers, comparing different models/brands.

How fun that would be.

[garak]

I think there are a couple of questions that could help clarify your situation.

1. If you get the SSP-300/600, how long would you keep it before the SSP-800?
2. If you don't get the SSP-300/600, how long would it be until you could get the SSP-800?

If you get the SSP-300/600, it seems like it will have two consequences. First, your total investment in processors will go up (8K + cost of 300/600). Second, the time until you can get the SSP-800 will be pushed farther into the future. The benefit of getting the SSP-300/600 now is like you said, your other sources except for blu-ray, would sound better now. However, having the Oppo do the DAC for blu-rays would probably be a step back from your Rotel (I'm assuming the Rotel has better DACs and analog section than the Oppo).

On the other hand, if you don't get the SSP-300/600, then you: 1. spend less overall. 2. Get the SSP-800 sooner. The downside is in the near term, you live with what you have.

So I still think it boils down to the first 2 questions I asked above. If it were me, if I could get the SSP-800 in a year or so, I'd keep the Rotel and save the money. If the SSP-800 is in the plans in 2+ years and getting the SSP-300/600 would not extend that timetable by more than 6 months, then I think I'd get the SSP-300/600.

[Nolan B]

mmmm..

some vary valid points by all. I think i am going to just wait and save for the 800. I really hope B&W comes out with some better finishes for the 805s because that would probably get me to upgrade my speakers. I also would like to see how well the Oppo actually performs.

[chrizm]

I was just facing the same "problem" - instead of waiting for the SSP-800 I went for the SSP-600 as upgrade for my SSP-300 ... and spent the rest of the money (and a little bit more) in some new fronts. Well, the SSP-600 is a large improvement over the SSP-300, surely the SSP-800 would be better - but I was quite shocked as my dealer made me a quite bad offer for trading in the SSP-300 - less than half the price I paid a year ago. And instead of losin a lot of money again I decided to go for a bargain SSP-600 which should be sufficient the next few years as I watch very few movies and even the DD/DTS-tracks on BluRays sound excellent ...

[wettou]

Well, the SSP-600 is a large improvement over the SSP-300, surely the SSP-800 would be better - but I was quite shocked as my dealer made me a quite bad offer for trading in the SSP-300 - less than half the price I paid a year ago.

Well not a surprise, dealer cost is 40 to 50 points bellow MSRP for example the SSP-800 MRSP is $8000 Dealer cost is between $4800 - $4000. Very nice margins if you ask me.

On top of that these processors are outdated

[chrizm]

Well, I can estimate the margins as I originally got about 30% discount on the SSP-300 ... then divide it by 2 and you got the price which the SSP is worth after a year. I would be happy to pay the price in $$ as the price is identical to that in €. Quite shocking though ...

[mjb]

The SSP800 might be big and expensive (too expensive in the EU IMO), but it doesn't even support the new codecs. There's just a vapourware promise, which made me very skeptical. The RSP-1098 had a famous modular design to facilitate easy upgrades, guess what, it never happened.

I would hold off on buying a SSP800 until it does what the advertising blurb promises out of the box. In the mean time, buy a RSP-1570 and enjoy the new codecs (for a quarter of the price).

[sikoniko]

The SSP800 might be big and expensive (too expensive in the EU IMO), but it doesn't even support the new codecs.

This year you will see a number of "high-end" companies come out with products that compete in the same space and for what the Classe provides, the SSP-800 will be even more appealing. Support for the codec's is a marketing thing. Sorry to tell you, but you've been bamboozled. This argument has gotten old and tiring. Please take your FUD elsewhere. Please don't come into the Classe forum with a disruptive attitude.

There's just a vapourware promise, which made me very skeptical. The RSP-1098 had a famous modular design to facilitate easy upgrades, guess what, it never happened.

I actually brought the question up to Dave about the SSP-800 being potentially modular. He said it is not, with the exception of the DSP. He said when he worked for Madrigal, they released a product that was completely modular in design and upgradeable. They never upgraded it once. He said there are too many variables with power supplies, pin-outs, etc that just can't be predicted whether it will be compatible or not. They make the product with what is available today.

I would hold off on buying a SSP800 until it does what the advertising blurb promises out of the box. In the mean time, buy a RSP-1570 and enjoy the new codecs (for a quarter of the price).

Why be such a cynic? You've bought into the "advertising blurb" that the codec's being on-board makes a difference. Why not practice what you preach, instead of manipulating information when it is convenient to your argument? :roll:

Most people who are shopping for the SSP-800 will buy it regardless of the DSP upgrade EVER coming out. Its not important to the product at this time and should not have any effect on the capability of the SSP-800 to perform great audio reproduction.

Vancouver, do whatever makes the most sense to your family, your budget, and your system. If you ever plan on getting the SSP-800, I recommend you tighten down and go for it directly. I've found stop-gaps have often cost more money, and moved the eventual purchase further back.

The SSP-800 will have longevity. You might decide to change your speakers out at some point, in which the SSP-800 will still be a great pre/pro. Once you own the SSP-800, I doubt you will look for another pre/pro for at least 5 years. If you keep it for 5 years, the list price of $8000US comes out to only be $4.39US/ day. Less than you probably spend on lunch.

[mjb]

Please take your FUD elsewhere. Please don't come into the Classe forum with a disruptive attitude.

Whoa! OK, point taken. I'll stay away then. ;x(

[sikoniko]

Whoa! OK, point taken. I'll stay away then. ;x(

I didn't say stay away. I said don't be disruptive. :W

[Nolan B]

the lack of on board decoders has no bearing on my decision.

[wettou]

Support for the codec's is a marketing thing. Sorry to tell you, but you've been bamboozled. This argument has gotten old and tiring. Please take your FUD elsewhere.

Not as you know Classé will deliver the upgrade for free? Let's hope the economy doesn't put a damper in that otherwise you will never see it

Most people who are shopping for the SSP-800 will buy it regardless of the DSP upgrade EVER coming out. Its not important to the product at this time and should not have any effect on the capability of the SSP-800 to perform great audio reproduction.

I don't think so it's not because you bought it sight unseen that we are all the same a few of us are waiting for Classé to deliver and I sure hope they will as that day I will go and buy mine

I've found stop-gaps have often cost more money, and moved the eventual purchase further back.

That I agree with which is why I still have a seven year old pre/pro, I am waiting for HDMi 1.3 and new Codecs to be stabilized. Of course they announced that there is a new HDMi plug coming!!! What are they thinking in this economy, that is why Onkyo, Denon, Sony, Yamaha and the likes release products every six months :roll:

The SSP-800 will have longevity. You might decide to change your speakers out at some point, in which the SSP-800 will still be a great pre/pro. Once you own the SSP-800, I doubt you will look for another pre/pro for at least 5 years. If you keep it for 5 years, the list price of $8000US comes out to only be $4.39US/ day. Less than you probably spend on lunch.

Hum great way to think about this way:T

[sikoniko]

Not as you know Classé will deliver the upgrade for free? Let's hope the economy doesn't put a damper in that otherwise you will never see it

I'll cross that bridge when it happens. Until then, I'm not going to go into panic mode. I'm very happy with what I have now, and see no real need for the ugprade anyways. As far as I can tell, the only benefit it will provide me is that they won't implement Dolby Volume until after the DSP is available. Otherwise they could cancel it and I'd still be a happy Classe customer.

I don't think so it's not because you bought it sight unseen that we are all the same a few of us are waiting for Classé to deliver and I sure hope they will as that day I will go and buy mine

I started my sentence with the word "Most" as my wettou clause. I don't feel there are as many people like you waiting as there are like me, who went out and already bought their SSP-800. You're more of an exception.

[Nolan B]

whats around the corner in 5 years that would make the 800 obsolete? Is there somene new replacement for HDMI being talked about.?

[wettou]

I started my sentence with the word "Most" as my wettou clause. I don't feel there are as many people like you waiting as there are like me, who went out and already bought their SSP-800. You're more of an exception.

I like being the exception:B

I just spoke with a distributor this morning who was bashing Classé and calling it MidFi!!! He is selling a small manufacturer from Germany and was telling me that they were the best thing since slice bread what a pompous J....

When I asked him where I could hear the products he had a single dealer in WA!! Whatever

[chrizm]

wettou, what is the name of that "small manufacturer from Germany"?

[wettou]

wettou, what is the name of that "small manufacturer from Germany"?

Accustic Art over priced if you ask me, one year warranty (because their stuff is so good...)

[style]

To have 2x Arts AMP III certainly do not have anything to fear from Classe rather

AMP III has nothing to envy to Classe rather the opposite.

a power ampli 2 x 600w. bi amp in horizontal or vertical with any difference... (REAL dual mono) 2 outlet.....


And electrocompaniet top model can run.....


Style

[wettou]

Accustic Art AMP III at $12,000 for each monoblock one would expect nothing but perfection.

So if they are so perfect why do they only have one year warranty 8O Bryston considered Mid Fi 20 years Classé 5 Years:T

Also my concern would be to deal with Germany for customer service from Hawaii I don't think so

[chrizm]

Well, never heard of them ... and you are right with the warranty - you have to get more than usual if you pay that much money - that's one reason I chose Classé/B&W.
Oh, and even dealing with German customer services is no fun when you live in Germany

[style]

well or I buy what I like or I buy regarding how much years warranty ....
But Denon have too warranty (3 years? but is not the same service like Classe or!!!

Bryston say 20years GREAT...but if you have a 10 years old Bryston powerampli are you sure to find the repair parts????
Classe (when was to my at home) say my a history from a consumer with a mega system M.Levinson 3 years old with problem: the consumer have contact with the M.Livenson to have the repairs parts: response was SORRY but with don't have no more this pieces!!!!!!!! :evil: "(we speak from a system around $. 60'000!!) TOTAL DOWN 8O

The AMP III for $ 12000.-GREAT price: in Switzerland the AMP III is chf. 20000.- (make the change....)
The SSP800 in USA for $.8000.- in Switzerland = chf. 13000.-!!!!

Electrocompaniet Nemo make for the Nautilus!?!? total FALSE!!! speak with tom and make of this nemo is constriud for the Nautilus....
well, they work fine all with the other, but are 2 totally different things, work well together but have nothing in common for the construction (projects - marketing - ...)

If you do not like A.Arts go with Pass lab but the price rises again ... and the warranty is 20 years ..

@chrizm

Oh, and even dealing with German customer services is no fun when you live in Germany

sorry why?!

Style

[wettou]

Oh, and even dealing with German customer services is no fun when you live in Germany

My sentiment exactly, Pass labs is a lot closer for me :B

[Nolan B]

My dealer made me an option I may not be able to refuse. A GREAT price on the 600 plus a promise that when I am ready to buy the 800 I can trade it in against it for the price I paid for it.

I am buying an Oppo for sure...so all I really need to do is compare the oppo to the Rotel 1069 because my wife and I watch a lot of BDs, and the 1069 isnt bad.

[style]

Is a personal taste ...
B&W speakers in cherry no thank...only in black or rosenut
800D no thank, 801D :T

Pass lab uhm... sure no bad but overpriced --> A. Arts give you the same,
and not so expensive...design/look "at the part"
passlab too long and I do not like the front ...

-------------

Nolan go with the SSP600.... great dealer and so one "job" can sure make with Classe dont with with other brands...

for the 1069Rotel--> is a 1 year old? or so like that.. I dont know how much
give your dealer for the 1069 but I have the 1068 and I sell for chf. 500 .- (new chf. 2590) difficult to find buyer....
if give you pleasure with the BD keep at home....

sorry, with the 600 you dont can bypass? go from the PS3 or the Oppo with HDMI to the plasma, with analog cables go to the 600 and in bitstream dn't work??

Style

[Andrew M Ward]

whats around the corner in 5 years that would make the 800 obsolete? Is there somene new replacement for HDMI being talked about.?

Nothing...
obsolete is a marketing tool

Just today I listened to a Meridian 565 processor (Circa 1996) and it was truly amazing...
worked like a champ on everything we played (24 bits and all) :rofl:


(as you were gentlemen - see you in a few months)

[wettou]

Nothing...
obsolete is a marketing tool Just today I listened to a Meridian 565 processor (Circa 1996) and it was truly amazing... worked like a champ on everything we played (24 bits and all) :rofl: (as you were gentlemen - see you in a few months)

Ok if you say so, but I have a pre/po that has no HDMi and that is obsolete from my perspective. Now I waited seven years before considering replacing it the reason to much instability with HDMi 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, 1.3b, 1.3c....8O That way you replace your pre/pro every six months

I don't think so that is why I am looking forward to the Classe SSP800 with the upgrade so I can keep it for 10 years

[sikoniko]

Ok if you say so, but I have a pre/po that has no HDMi and that is obsolete from my perspective. Now I waited seven years before considering replacing it the reason to much instability with HDMi 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, 1.3b, 1.3c....8O That way you replace your pre/pro every six months

I don't think so that is why I am looking forward to the Classe SSP800 with the upgrade so I can keep it for 10 years

A product will be certified HDMI 1.3(x) based on the most current version that is available when the units are sent in for certification. The SSP-800 is potentially HDMI 1.3z certifiable. Most products you will find will be this way.

[wettou]

A product will be certified HDMI 1.3(x) based on the most current version that is available when the units are sent in for certification. The SSP-800 is potentially HDMI 1.3z certifiable. Most products you will find will be this way.

How about HDMi 2.0 and the new connectors they are coming out with!!!!:M

[sikoniko]

How about HDMi 2.0 and the new connectors they are coming out with!!!!:M

Is there a 2.0 announced?

I don't think there is a change to the connector, I believe they are adding more options. I know the HDMI people are working on a locking connector.

[wettou]

Is there a 2.0 announced?

I don't think there is a change to the connector, I believe they are adding more options. I know the HDMI people are working on a locking connector.

Yes there is for Audio discs only

[style]

Great, but sorry if you think that Hdmi stoped at 1.xxxx WOW....

is the same is you say me I hve a new Oppo and i listen the bts hd and is very fine the sound!!!

Sorry but from a DTS and DTS Hd you don't have ANY difference. is the same sound. dts LY for video ....
the pre is set on PCM an if I choice dts, dts hd, dd +....is and rest PCM sound.
wehn the DTS Master Audio will be available we can speak and make a thread...now is all only a false/half-truths ...nothing more...
----------------

Nolan

I am buying an Oppo for sure...so all I really need to do is compare the oppo to the Rotel 1069 because my wife and I watch a lot of BDs, and the 1069 isnt bad.

Sorry but what give the yuo the 1069 extra vs. the 600?
i can play the bluray ray at the same modus!
is you will upgreda your front speakers with a serie 800 go without problem:
a new 805D dont come and is not in a B&W porgramm.

The ssp600 with the Oppo and a paar 805 or 804...will make you happy.
this speakers in the future can you use as rear for surround...

Omar

[wettou]

DTS Master Audio HD sounds much better than DTS!!! Same with Dolby Tru HD vs Dolby Digital.

Its like mp3 at 128k vs Flac

[style]

DTS Master Audio HD sounds much better than DTS.

Master Audio HD and DTS HD are 2 differente thing.
if you have your pre in PCM can you choice DTS, Discrete, DD, ..but the sound come out ALWAYS same!!!
DTS HD (high def.)!!! is not the same as Master Audio: DTS Master Audio is well better as DTS.

Sorry but the DTS Master Audio HD have you sure not at home: where have listen?
Be able to hear sounds DTS HD Master Audio TRUE, is not very easy ....
(to have the writing on the display "DTS Master Audio" does not want to listen to this kind of sound)!!!

Throughout the forum I think that people who can listen to DTS HD MA are very few.

[Nolan B]

Nolan

Sorry but what give the yuo the 1069 extra vs. the 600?
i can play the bluray ray at the same modus!
is you will upgreda your front speakers with a serie 800 go without problem:
a new 805D dont come and is not in a B&W porgramm.

The ssp600 with the Oppo and a paar 805 or 804...will make you happy.
this speakers in the future can you use as rear for surround...

Omar

The 1069 may give me more then the 600/Oppo combo because likely the 1069 has better DACs and then the Oppo for BD. I am guessing the 1069 will all around sound better then the Oppo when it comes to BD (which I watch a lot).

In every other regards the 600 will be better obviously.

[style]

Sorry Nolan,

you think that the Rotel 1069 DAC's is beter from the SSP600?

I dont know but is to be checked!!!

the Oppo bluray with the 1069 will be "easy to use" vs. the combo 600&Oppo.. but the you will at first Audio or pictures?


I wacht a lot of bluray too. I buy only bluray....and is very rare occasion dvd SD....I have the SSP with Pioner LX91 & Denon3800. The Pioneer bluray playr is very amazing (in only audio too!! -> you can compare the LX91 as cd player like a cd player dedicate.)
for the profile 2 i don't have any interesse: I see my movi and ok, stop. I dont want go to see "making the..2 or other extra trailer from movie not available....for me dont make any sense have this "option"....


Omar

[Nolan B]

Sorry Nolan,

you think that the Rotel 1069 DAC's is beter from the SSP600?

I dont know but is to be checked!!!

the Oppo bluray with the 1069 will be "easy to use" vs. the combo 600&Oppo.. but the you will at first Audio or pictures?

You missunderstood me. I said the 1069 has better DACs then the Oppo (at least im guessing that.) If I got the 600 then i would have to hook it up to the 600 via the analog output and my SACD, DVD A, and BD would all be decoded and put over the DACs of the Oppo.

The video quality wouldnt change at all as I would still use HDMI through a switcher.


I would benefit from the 600 for all other sources but BD, SACD, DVD A. I want to compare my 1069 to the Oppo before i make any moves.

[sikoniko]

You missunderstood me. I said the 1069 has better DACs then the Oppo (at least im guessing that.) If I got the 600 then i would have to hook it up to the 600 via the analog output and my SACD, DVD A, and BD would all be decoded and put over the DACs of the Oppo.

The video quality wouldnt change at all as I would still use HDMI through a switcher.


I would benefit from the 600 for all other sources but BD, SACD, DVD A. I want to compare my 1069 to the Oppo before i make any moves.

Does the Oppo have a way to boost the bass +10db for analog out? I didn't like the experience with my SSP-600 using analog inputs because of this. I ended up going back to S/PDIF. YMMV.

You could use the multiple configurations to work around it though. Boost the bass on your subs volume and setup a config for the BD player, then when you calibrate the system for your other inputs, it will correct it.

[Nolan B]

Does the Oppo have a way to boost the bass +10db for analog out? I didn't like the experience with my SSP-600 using analog inputs because of this. I ended up going back to S/PDIF. YMMV.

You could use the multiple configurations to work around it though. Boost the bass on your subs volume and setup a config for the BD player, then when you calibrate the system for your other inputs, it will correct it.

interesting.

The 600 doesnt have bass management for the multi input? If the new Oppo is like the last ones then it wont have any other function besides setting the speakers to large/small and indicating if you have a sub.

[sikoniko]

interesting.

The 600 doesnt have bass management for the multi input? If the new Oppo is like the last ones then it wont have any other function besides setting the speakers to large/small and indicating if you have a sub.

It does not. The 7.1 inputs are analog bypass only. Bass Mgmt should be done in the player.

[Nolan B]

It does not. The 7.1 inputs are analog bypass only. Bass Mgmt should be done in the player.

oh...well this changes a lot. Strange because it an still be a total bypass even though a processor lets you bump the volume of the sub chanel.