Driver Evaluations for a new project

[JonMarsh]

You would send yours directly to Ayre after scheduling a return date with Michael.

Yeah, well that will need to wait until we're caught up with other expenses and the Ardent's are finished.

Still, I'm curious what they've done, and how much of an upgrade it actually is. I'll probably buy the stuff for my planned modifications of the AX7e before getting the preamp done, since I'm not using the latter much at the moment.

[will1066]

I've just been notified that the work on mine's been done and will ship back to me shortly.

I was able to bypass the dealer because I originally sent mine in for cosmetic work and they asked me if I wanted the upgrade since the unit was already there. They asked for $400.

[JoshK]

Josh, I might be mistaken, but weren't you one of the people who went and listened to Dr Geddes setup? What's all this about 93-95db and 15w??

cheers,

AJ

Indeed, I am one of those folks. But I am not sure I understand your question. Earl used a 100wpc receiver and was not likely taxing his receiver much (a guess). His room is huge and the listening spot, I'd guess is 20-25' back. Mine is 10' back from the mains. I'd never get away with the volumes produced in his soundproof theater in my adjoined house. My neighbors would probably call the cops.

Also, the times when we really cranked the volume was on movie soundtracks, whereas I am concerned with music reproduction.

[CraigJ]

With the "two" of us involved, since many operations are "hurry up and wait" kinds of things, with a little intelligent interleaving "we" should be productive and not too busy.

Ah, maybe I should come out and have a session, I mean assist you..... :unsure:

Dr. "Freud" Craig

[JonMarsh]

But you know, I'm much more a fan of Jung myself, than Freud- thought that way in school, and haven't changed my mind about that since. OF course, under the maxim of "use it or lose it", I've little skills or knowledge base to fall back on anymore in that area.

It's easier to manifest and express certain areas thoroughly with an approach allowing articulated and consistent value structures relevant to the task or social context at hand- regardless of the confusion that might result in a conventional multi-phasic inventory evaluation.

And it provides a useful and calculated distraction from other aspects of the ongoing situation. :W

:rofl:

[ThomasW]

But you know, I'm much more a fan of Jung myself, than Freud

+1 for Jung, but must not forget Fritz Perls and my personal 'mentor' JFT Bugental

[JonMarsh]

Very reasonable observations and references.... :W

[AJINFLA]

Indeed, I am one of those folks. But I am not sure I understand your question. Earl used a 100wpc receiver and was not likely taxing his receiver much (a guess). His room is huge and the listening spot, I'd guess is 20-25' back. Mine is 10' back from the mains. I'd never get away with the volumes produced in his soundproof theater in my adjoined house. My neighbors would probably call the cops.

Also, the times when we really cranked the volume was on movie soundtracks, whereas I am concerned with music reproduction.

Ah. I didn't realize his room was that large. So are you still pursuing the Summa type sound/dynamics, just with much lower power for your smaller room? No huge bass trap walls like Earl I imagine? How will you handle the bass?
Out of curiosity, did you put your ear up to the tweeter to see if you could hear any hiss in Earls system?

cheers,

AJ

[JonMarsh]

Oh well, if you'd do that for me, that'd be awesome!... :P

I was going to call them when I get a moment.

(and I don't seriously think you'd be calling for me, just having fun with written language being a bizarre and twisted means of conveying information)

One input on my DAC seems to have gone all fuzzy Ahh well. Probably just a dirty switch. Maybe.

How's the speaker project coming?!

Yesterday was a lot busier and more stressful than I anticipated (usually the story of my work life these days again), but I got hold of Ryan Conway in sales at PS Audio this morning, and I can confirm that the "normal" configuration now, and mostly what dealers have (possibly excepting Audio Advisor) is the four input model with a balanced input. :T

Could be just the thing for a minimalist system, so now I'd have to chose between upgrading my K5x to this new configuration (but the "big sytem" is missing speakers, speaker cables, and varoius other bits now!), or picking one of these up to eventually wind up in my bedroom system in all likelihood. I expect the family room to stay with the AX7e. Well, upgrading the bedroom system is something of a non-priority for now- it's like the old joke, if we had some ham, we could make a ham and cheese sandwich, if we had some cheese. Oops, bread might be helpful, too!

Two more days until Speaker Camp! (right now, we're in "training camp")

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[JoshK]

AJ, yeah the freedom from compression and the dynamics are something very high on my list. I never really prioritized imaging and soundstaging as high on the list, they are something i do to know i've set up the speakers correctly. I hold high lack of glare, tonality/balance, freedom from compression, dynamics and openness/detail.

I have a speaker project in the works right now. I probably shouldn't mention it as I tend to jinx myself. But suffice it to say that a Geddes waveguide is part of it.

I am not staunchly in the SS camp, the tube camp, the SET camp, or otherwise. I enjoy building amps as part of the hobby and i prefer to build tube amps. But tube amps were the amps that made the most impression in my experience.

[AJINFLA]

AJ, yeah the freedom from compression and the dynamics are something very high on my list. I never really prioritized imaging and soundstaging as high on the list, they are something i do to know i've set up the speakers correctly. I hold high lack of glare, tonality/balance, freedom from compression, dynamics and openness/detail.

I have a speaker project in the works right now. I probably shouldn't mention it as I tend to jinx myself. But suffice it to say that a Geddes waveguide is part of it.

I am not staunchly in the SS camp, the tube camp, the SET camp, or otherwise. I enjoy building amps as part of the hobby and i prefer to build tube amps. But tube amps were the amps that made the most impression in my experience.

Thanks Josh. I guess I'll have to visit myself if I really want to know:W .
Any hiss/residual noise, or did you not do the ear to speaker thing? TIA

[cjd]

Yesterday was a lot busier and more stressful than I anticipated (usually the story of my work life these days again), but I got hold of Ryan Conway in sales at PS Audio this morning, and I can confirm that the "normal" configuration now, and mostly what dealers have (possibly excepting Audio Advisor) is the four input model with a balanced input. :T

Wow. Awesome. And how do you find time when I don't? (oh. i get distracted and forget, is what...)

if my sister moves out to CO I may have to swing by to one of these "camp" things some visit...

[JonMarsh]

Wow. Awesome. And how do you find time when I don't? (oh. i get distracted and forget, is what...)

if my sister moves out to CO I may have to swing by to one of these "camp" things some visit...

That would be cool- or at least come by Thomas's when you're in the area. This session of "Speaker Camp" is being held in Livermore, 'cause Thomas is heading out for a getaway with his lady friend, and I live in Livermore- this is mostly going to be the construction camp.

That's one thing about those cute little PE cabinets- they sure take a lot of the grunt work out of a project, if the project will fit in it. Its allowed me to be more of just a wires and sparks guys lately. This project will totally reverse that trend. :W

I've got one room just setup as a gluing and assembly work shop- there are a LOT of gluing steps to this, the way I'm doing it- like the M8ta, a little worse in some areas, not as bad in others.

I'm looking forward to the Friday evening and transitioning to just speaker work for a couple of weeks!

[JoshK]

Thanks Josh. I guess I'll have to visit myself if I really want to know:W .
Any hiss/residual noise, or did you not do the ear to speaker thing? TIA

I didn't get anywhere near the speakers in his theater but he did have another pair of Summas set up in his living room which I listened to and walked up to. Music was playing and I didn't put my ear to the waveguide, but I don't recall any noise. This was like 3 or 4 years ago too.

Another point worth mentioning, the 15wpc amp that I am referring to is going to be used for 300hz up in an active setup where the mid driver is a raw 96db/w. My 95db/w TD15Xs are going to be run by my UcD400s (200w into 8R) under 300hz. So even if I rock out I don't think I'll be wanting for juice.

[Ray Tremblay]

The current plan is to develop and test two configurations- one for the diligent constructor of more modest means, using the RS180's, RS100-4, and 27TBFCG.

I'm DIEING to see how this turns out!!!! These are the drivers I would select for a small three way. :T :B

[Evil Twin]

The construction is well underway- but do remember that the Dayton/Seas set will trail the "prime" set in construction, assembly, and test. The same type of crossover is planned for both sets, presuming the in cabinet measurements follow expectations from the earlier measurements here and subsequent baffle modeling.

[Ray Tremblay]

Any progress?

[marcjs]

Hi there...a newbie to this forum. I was drawn to this thread by the initial driver evals and would like to add some interesting drivers when I get around to it.

I am a fan of ATC drivers and have several projects using their 3" mid domes (both std. and 'super' versions) as well as their woofers (6"/9"/12" as well as 15"). Only the 6" are SL (ATC's proprietary SUPER-LINEAR technology).

I also rate Volt drivers highly and have 8" (BM2208) and 10" (BM2500.8) woofers that I can measure up. The 8" are used in my Nelson Reed 804C monitors which also use the ATC (std) mid-domes.

Lastly, one very intersting tweeter I use in my ATC SCM100 clone is the vintage RTR ESR15 electrostatic tweeter array. I'll add that also.

My measurement system is fairly outdates as it is LAUD (original Liberty Audio system that pre-dated Praxis). The files are compatible so I'll post-process the files using Praxis which is free to use for that purpose.

[marcjs]

Hi there...a newbie to this forum. I was drawn to this thread by the initial driver evals and would like to add some interesting drivers when I get around to it.

I am a fan of ATC drivers and have several projects using their 3" mid domes (both std. and 'super' versions) as well as their woofers (6"/9"/12" as well as 15"). Only the 6" are SL (ATC's proprietary SUPER-LINEAR technology).

I also rate Volt drivers highly and have 8" BM2208 and 10" BM2500.8 woofers that I can measure up. The 8" are used in my Nelson Reed 804C monitors which also use the ATC (std) mid-domes.

Lastly, one very intersting tweeter I use in my ATC SCM100 clone is the vintage RTR ESR15 electrostatic tweeter array. I'll add that also.

My measurement system is the fairly outdated LAUD (original Liberty Audio system that pre-dated Praxis). The files are compatible so I'll post-process the files using Praxis which is free to use for that purpose.

[dlr]

My measurement system is the fairly outdated LAUD (original Liberty Audio system that pre-dated Praxis). The files are compatible so I'll post-process the files using Praxis which is free to use for that purpose.

I wouldn't be concerned about it being outdated. If you're doing standard measurements and don't need to measure beyond 24K, LAUD is still fine. I have some of the latest measurement hardware/software, but prefer LAUD for measuring due to it's ease of use and the fact that it's inherently calibrated, at least with the Fiji sound card.

Waslo abandoned development on LAUD only because Microsoft blocked direct access to the sound card beyond Win98, a requirement for LAUD. Another MS "security enhancement".

Praxis is excellent for post-processing, I use it for that, but for frd file creation there's really no need to post-process. Better to provide it directly, since post-processing always involves some interpolation for sample points. Anyone using an already post-processed interpolated file who does not use Praxis will have a second interpolation performed.

I know one very well-known designer with an extensive web site who still prefers to use the IMP that was the precursor to LAUD. For standard design usage both are still fully competent.

Dave

[marcjs]

I wouldn't be concerned about it being outdated. If you're doing standard measurements and don't need to measure beyond 24K, LAUD is still fine. I have some of the latest measurement hardware/software, but prefer LAUD for measuring due to it's ease of use and the fact that it's inherently calibrated, at least with the Fiji sound card.
Dave

I like Laud for a number of reasons - the use of the TB Fuji and Pinnacle boards (I have one of each), the easy to learn scripting language, the availability of very straightforward scrips, and the 'fresh' calibrations.

I'll get the measurements together when I clear the deck of current projects.

-Marcel

[Evil Twin]

Addendum to midwoofer testing with basic curves for ZA14W08 added.

[Bear]

Addendum to midwoofer testing with basic curves for ZA14W08 added.

Fairly impressive distortion between 300 Hz - 3 kHz.

[Evil Twin]

Yes- most impressive.



Combine two of these in an MTM with a low crossover point and quality tweeter, and a classic B3 alignment to optimize the power response and vertical dispersion in the crossover region, and you just might have something....

Then offer an option to convert it into a three way...

[Paul Ebert]

Yes, very, very good. What was the nominal output level for this measurement?

[Evil Twin]

87 dB at one meter- one watt drive level. Obviously no one will mistake these for PA speakers- but as a small system for reasonable playback levels, or a midrange, there is a very distinct value proposition.

[PewterTA]

Is there anyone else or is it just me that is SOOOO looking forward to these. Wkhanna and me are already making plans for the build (we're building 2 sets - one for him and one for me). So we've already started saving and planning on how we are going to get it all done, because now we need even MORE room to build 2 sets at once. But I think it will all be worth it!!! :T

[Evil Twin]

ScanSpeak D3004-6640




This tweeter has been the subject of pre-release discussion and speculation, as well as reported variations in performance. While I would not suggest these are definitive measurements, they are made under the same conditions as for the earlier D3004-662001 and D3004-660000 reported previously, and so should be useful for comparisons.



D3004-6640 Beryllium Family of Curves, 0 Deg, 10 Deg, 20 Deg, 30 Deg




D3004-6640 Distortion, 2.83V Drive


The 6640 has a relatively damped ultrasonic resonance (for a metal dome) in the 35 kHz region; the faceplate design is different, lacking the short waveguide common to the 662001, which enhances off axis dispersion but also seems to provide a consistent hump in the on axis upper octave; with my hearing enhanced by bionics and the force, this becomes wearing, and reducing toe-in does not seem to be an adequate solution.



D3004-660000 on axis

also as measured on a development system:



Measurements and listening tests in an actual system will be required next.

[Bear]

Oh Mighty Great One! My powers of observation fall far below those of your own. Is your comment, below, meant to indicate that the 6600 and 6620 have adulations that ultimately wear thin on Your Grace's most sensitive ears or is this a comment on the new Beryllium Droid from TIE Industries not being suitable for significant, long-term duty in close quarters, say about one of your Star Destroyers?

The 6640 has a relatively damped ultrasonic resonance (for a metal dome) in the 35 kHz region; the faceplate design is different, lacking the short waveguide common to the 662001, which enhances off axis dispersion but also seems to provide a consistent hump in the on axis upper octave; with my hearing enhanced by bionics and the force, this becomes wearing, and reducing toe-in does not seem to be an adequate solution.

[Jed]

I don't think a slight 2 db rise (6620/6600) at >17k is anything to worry about, personally. How many of you can hear over 15k? Actually many can benefit with a little augmentation at that frequency given that is where our ears start to attenuate (unless you have very young ears).

Looks like the 6600 has the lowest odd order harmonics. With my own measurements I found the 6600 a tiny bit better than the 6620 in that regard. link

[Evil Twin]

Oh Mighty Great One! My powers of observation fall far below those of your own. Is your comment, below, meant to indicate that the 6600 and 6620 have adulations that ultimately wear thin on Your Grace's most sensitive ears or is this a comment on the new Beryllium Droid from TIE Industries not being suitable for significant, long-term duty in close quarters, say about one of your Star Destroyers?

It would be most premature to make any definitive statements based on the measurements made so far and listening evaluations of the 662001 in one system. However, my perceptions are leaning towards your first statement, and I find the damped smooth behavior of the 6640 at high frequencies to be most encouraging hints to their hopefull refined sonic characteristics.

I don't think a slight 2 db rise (6620/6600) at 15-17k is anything to worry about, personally. How many of you can hear over 15k? Actually many can benefit with a little augmentation at that frequency given that is where our ears start to attenuate (unless you have very young ears). Looks like the 6600 has the lowest odd order harmonics.

Reasonable observations and conclusions, and until further experience is obtained in an actual system, no conclusive judgement is warranted. However, my first impressions of the 662001 in an actual system do align with the measured response, and while it impressed some other auditioners, I did not find it entirely to my liking.

Here we may also be dealing with vagaries in taste and in the subjective response of the aging ears of different humanoid observers.

[Ray Tremblay]

Evil Twin, is this in the works yet?

Oh, by the way, please use the 4 ohm RS180. :T

[Evil Twin]

If by "this" you mean an Ardent design with lower cost drivers, this hasn't been forgotten. However, taskings from the Emperor have mandated that this only be a secondary task until the end of April. A new midrange to evaluate has been purchased- more swept volume is required, than the RS100-4 is happy to supply.

Is your request for the 4 ohm version of the RS180 based on having these drivers already? Or out of necessity for a 8 ohm amplifier load? (all of the midrange drivers in consideration have been 4 ohm due to issues of system sensitivity).

The drawback with using dual 4 ohm RS180 wired in series is that the resulting sensitivity is reduced by 3 dB compared with paralleled RS180-8. Also, the RS180-4 T/S parameters are not well optimized for a bass reflex, with a Qts of 0.5 and Fs of 40 Hz, due to the relatively high Qes. (0.62). As measurements are on hand, designing with these is not difficult.

At this time I have a preference for the D2608/9130 on the top end, coupled with the NE149W-04 for the midrange, pending the completion of midrange measurements this month.

[Ray Tremblay]

A new midrange to evaluate has been purchased- more swept volume is required, than the RS100-4 is happy to supply.

This is most disappointing.

Is your request for the 4 ohm version of the RS180 based on having these drivers already? Or out of necessity for a 8 ohm amplifier load? (all of the midrange drivers in consideration have been 4 ohm due to issues of system sensitivity).

Neither. The 4 ohm model is believed to have better low frequency extension.

At this time I have a preference for the D2608/9130 on the top end, coupled with the NE149W-04 for the midrange, pending the completion of midrange measurements this month.

It appears as though the Emperor has been most generous, and allowed additional funding for this operation.

[Bear]

At this time I have a preference for the D2608/9130 on the top end, coupled with the NE149W-04 for the midrange, pending the completion of midrange measurements this month.

Oh Dread Lord - Given the results of your interrogations of the NE180W, do you feel like it would be a superior choice to the existing ER18NX, or is its heightened resonance disconsonant with your lordship's performance goals?

[augerpro]

I'd like to see how the new Scanspeak Discovery performs. Small formfactor like the RS-100.

[Bear]

I'd like to see how the new Scanspeak Discovery performs. Small formfactor like the RS-100.

I suspect we may get that answer at some point:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35701

[augerpro]

I knew I saw them in someone's hands recently! Jon has so many projects (and versions) I forget which drivers are being used for which project

[JonMarsh]

So do I..... :B

[JonMarsh]

I was planning to post some info on measurements on some of the Vifa cone types, with the reed cone, but now I can't find them for sale anymore- it's a real problem when drivers go obsolete faster than I can test and use them!!

[Jim Holtz]

I was planning to post some info on measurements on some of the Vifa cone types, with the reed cone, but now I can't find them for sale anymore- it's a real problem when drivers go obsolete faster than I can test and use them!!

Hi Jon,

Are you talking about the NE series drivers?

Jim

[JonMarsh]

Yeah- don't see them listed at Madisound anymore.

[Face]

PE still has some listed: http://www.parts-express.com/brand/vifa/225

[Jim Holtz]

Yeah- don't see them listed at Madisound anymore.

Hi Jon,

I don't understand why Mad quite carrying the NE line. They're superb drivers. Meniscus also carries them and Mark has told me that there were no availability problems getting the driver.

Jim

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

I don't understand why Mad quite carrying the NE line. They're superb drivers. Meniscus also carries them and Mark has told me that there were no availability problems getting the driver.

Jim

Thanks for that info, Jim- I'll keep that in mind and check Meniscus