Low Budget Speaker Porn

[JonMarsh]

OK, this is my contribution, an impulse purchase of a new low budget mid from Scanspeak. Maybe you have a favorite recent discovery- feel free to chime in.

Some how I've got to find SOMETHING interesting to do with these....



Some may not find these sexy looking compared with Illuminator mids, for example, but sexy is as sexy does...



Sort of the SS equivalent of the Tangband 1337s, but not...

Very promising curves. Gotta look at them myself, including distortion, soon.

[villastrangiato]

The low mass is a bit of a surprise for the fiberglass cone - power handling doesn't seem to be exactly stellar though. Has anyone tested the TB W4-1805S yet? - the specs on that look like it could give this SS a real run for the $70.....

[JonMarsh]

The low mass is a bit of a surprise for the fiberglass cone - power handling doesn't seem to be exactly stellar though. Has anyone tested the TB W4-1805S yet? - the specs on that look like it could give this SS a real run for the $70.....

Hmmm, 2.5 mm Xmax for the SS vs 0.45 mm Xmax for the TB, same basic sensitivity, but the SS impedance curve does not show multiple signs of mechanical resonances. And at 500 Hz, looks like the real sensitivity of the TB is about 87 dB, not the claimed 90 dB. Not nearly so smooth, either. Well, it might be interesting to see, but I've been burned on the last couple of speculative TB purchases, so I think I'd sit the W4-1805s out, let someone else give that a try. :W

[Dennis H]

Hmmm, that does look like it has a lot in common with the 1337. Reasonably efficient, well behaved 4" mids are hard to come by! Is the back open enough for a dipole?

[villastrangiato]

Nothing gets by you :lol: Admittedly, at first glance, I often neglect to check out the impedance curve if the frequency response plot looks reasonable - those "ripples" look like mountains - hard to believe the frequency response plot is legitimate with impedance issues like that. And yeah, I can understand the skepticism. TB stuff always seems to look too good to be true at first blush - and then when someone gets around to testing - reality hits. I'd be curious to see how it measures up though all the same - I'm an incurable optimist.

[---k---]

For those wondering what the heck Jon is measuring:

Scan-Speak Discovery 10F/4424G, 4" Midrange
$85.80 for each

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8690

[JonMarsh]

My bad- I guess I figured folks could read the part number off the label on the magnet back.

They're not as open in the back as I would like, wish they had a vented spider. But they look so nice from 300 Hz to 3-4 kHz, just imagine using the 30 degree curve (green) as the design axis.

And the impedance curve promises low inductance and hopefully low inductivity modulation and low distortion even in the upper end.

Looks like they'd work with a minimum part count crossover, relatively speaking. I have some ideas....

[Mark K]

:yeah: Nice set of curves...

That's probably as far as I want to go...


Keep us updated-I might have to spring for a pair of these.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I hope to get to measuring these weekend after this coming- I'm finishing the Modula MT MkII next weekend, final assembly and test, to take up to Sacramento. Got most of the work on the Cherry cabinets finished today. Hopefully I'll be able to borrow them back on the 24th of April. :W

[synthguy]

Darn, I was wondering if this was about nice looking decent sounding budget speakers, instead of drivers. But then, I'm a listener, not a builder.

However, I am thinking of making a thread requesting some high end driver porn in the near future, as I'm ultimately on a quest for the ultimate Holy Grail speaker. Because I live by my signature and I want the... you know, ultimate...

[mgrabow]

Good Stfuf, I am looking around for what mid to use in my next project.

[Dennis H]

Madisound doesn't list them in stock yet but the 8-ohm version looks pretty sweet too. If true, it's amazing they can get that much sensitivity out of a 36 sq.cm. cone with an amp-friendly impedance.

http://www.scan-speak.dk/midrange.htm

[JonMarsh]

Yes, that certainly does look good- surprised at the difference in the very top end! I don't think that will affect the range you'd usually run them in. Both are very respectable, based on published curves. Now we have to see how they test out- probably won't get to that for 2-3 weeks, as I'm already pretty scheduled this weekend and next.

[Jonasz]

:yeah: Nice set of curves...

Nah, if you're a nerd maybe, these are nice sets of curves in my world! :P :P :P

[Asterduc]

Yes, that certainly does look good- surprised at the difference in the very top end! I don't think that will affect the range you'd usually run them in. Both are very respectable, based on published curves. Now we have to see how they test out- probably won't get to that for 2-3 weeks, as I'm already pretty scheduled this weekend and next.

Hey Jon,
have you been doing anything with these drivers?
I just installed them in a F.A.S.T. config and they perform well.





Driver acrobatism



Regards,
Ed.

[evilskillit]

Neat enclosures. I like em.

[mkc]

Hi Jon,

To bad you don't have the time to measure these. I was lucky to buy a pair, here in Denmark, for the price of one. I have been considering using these with a Duelund crossover.

Best regards,
Mogens

[JonMarsh]

Let us know what you think of them if you can.

I've been swamped at work the last few weeks- been working since early in the AM this weekend (5:30 on...) I expected to test these next week, but I'm behind on my projects for Northern CA DIY. At least the Ardent tuning seems finalized- but haven't had time to draw up the final crossover yet!

Week after this coming is vacation- Speaker Camp resumes for a week!

[Evil Twin]

Move along now... nothing to see here...

Nah, if you're a nerd maybe, these are nice sets of curves in my world! :P :P :P

These aren't the curves you're looking for... move along now.

[cjd]

I am no longer able to view this thread at work...

[twest820]

These aren't the curves you're looking for... move along now.

Oh, I already did. While that hoop earring's the size of a four inch midrange---a brief, albeit promising start---there's absolutely nothing in it. No signs of a plasma feed, either.

[mkc]

These aren't the curves you're looking for... move along now.

Ooh, the temptation of the Dark side...

\mkc

[savage25xtreme]

I am no longer able to view this thread at work...

shame on you looking at a HT forum at work anyways.....

[Asterduc]

Let us know what you think of them if you can.

Sure, as soon as I have a new pair!
They sounded pretty well, and loud too, very loud, untill finally too loud!

If you see this, then you better slow down



or you get this



Nice solid basket though! notice the cupper ring and also the shaped airflow design at the entry of the centerhole



I think that a few holes in here wouldn't hurt mechanical resistance and cooling too.



Anyway, for the time that they were playing, they sounded very well.
I had them compared against a set of Illuminator Satelites (shown below), which in fact cost over 5 times more!

[Asterduc]

if someone would be interested to know.
I had them in a F.A.S.T. configuration together with a set of ScanSpeak 25W8567-SE cornerwoofers, crossed 48db/oct at 285 hz and DSP corrected.

This is the curve a the listening point. Nicely in balance and it sounded that way too. No missing high, pretty large picture on voices, however less detailled in comparison to the 12MU Illuminator.



Regards,
Ed.

[NyxOne]

Sure, as soon as I have a new pair!
They sounded pretty well, and loud too, very loud, untill finally too loud!

If you see this, then you better slow down

How close were you to the speaker ?

134db is realy LOUD, I'M MEAN BLEEDING LOUD!!

For a a speaker that is rated at 30w peak I'm having a hard believing these numbers!

If the speaker is rated at 89db 2.83v @ 1m and my maths are still good, 3db gain every time we double the power, then we have this

db      watt
---     -----
89 1
92 2
95 4
98 8
101 16
104 32
107 64
110 128
113 256
116 512
119 1024
122 2048
125 4096
128 8192
131 16384
134 32768

So I guess you were very close to the cone of the speaker or there is something mystical with this driver!

Chuck

[savage25xtreme]

so loud it distorted the lens on the camera :lol:

[JonMarsh]

How close were you to the speaker ?

134db is realy LOUD, I'M MEAN BLEEDING LOUD!!

For a a speaker that is rated at 30w peak I'm having a hard believing these numbers!

If the speaker is rated at 89db 2.83v @ 1m and my maths are still good, 3db gain every time we double the power, then we have this

db      watt
---     -----
89	1
92	2
95	4
98	8
101	16
104	32
107	64
110	128
113	256
116	512
119	1024
122	2048
125	4096
128	8192
131	16384
134	32768

So I guess you were very close to the cone of the speaker or there is something mystical with this driver!

Chuck

Well, look at the picture! He's got the probe right up at the driver, not at 1 meter! that's good for 16-20 dB right there.

[NyxOne]

Well, look at the picture! He's got the probe right up at the driver, not at 1 meter! that's good for 16-20 dB right there.

Your right, now that you mention it... I wasn't sure since the picture is a bit blurry... That make sens!

At any rate it's still impressive for a 4" rated at 30w (and running fullrange)!!!

Chuck

[Asterduc]

Well, look at the picture! He's got the probe right up at the driver, not at 1 meter! that's good for 16-20 dB right there.

true Jon,
The 134 db near field was with the Lyngdorf volume setting at level '100'.
Anyway, I found it an impressive figure for that little driver.

At volume level '90' it gave 121 db near field and 102 at meter distance.
Know that the measurement was done with music (Sara Evans, Born to Fly), not with a steady test signal.

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'm psyched to run some measurements on this, but it's stacked up behind some time sensitive projects- at this rate, I won't get to them before May.

Scanspeak in my experience is pretty good at making fairly low distortion drivers, in the sense of not realizing how hard they're being pushed until they go all crispy critter on you...

[mkc]

Hi Jon,

Have you had a look at the Vifa TG9FD10? Do you think the SS 10F/4424G00 originate from the same tools?

Might have to pick one up and see.

Best regards,
Mogens

[JonMarsh]

I think they orginated from the same kind of thinking, but clearly not the same parts or design- maybe the SS is the MkII. Some Peerless and Vifa parts went over to SS, me thinks they were maybe developed and built by the SS guys all along.

[SpeakerGuy]

Don't suppose you've gotten a chance to test 'em out yet? Guess I'll get some to try myself then.

[JonMarsh]

Not yet- works been a b*tch. Wish I could give an ETA, but it may be a while as finishing the Ardents will have higher priority for now.

[Asterduc]

last Saturday we had our yearly DIY audio meeting in the Netherlands.

I had a pair of these installed, supported by 2 Peerlesss 835017.
Everybody seemed to like these high-sexapeal drivers.

As low as the price is, their performance is the opposite.

As an experiment, I had added a Vifa NE19 Alucone tweeter, crossed at 10khz. Not that the sound suffered from crispy tones, but the extra tweeter just brought a little wider sound, although some listener preferred the tweeterless solution much more.

Concaeve RAPide with Scan Speak 10F fullrange and Vifa NE19 tweeter

Cornerwoofer with Peerless 835017 XXLS woofer to fit with ScanSpeak 10F

The Satelites were driven by a Lyngdorf TDAI2200 and crossed at 250 hz, 8th order.

Regards,
Ed.

[Bear]

last Saturday we had our yearly DIY audio meeting in the Netherlands.

I had a pair of these installed, supported by 2 Peerlesss 835017.
Everybody seemed to like these high-sexapeal drivers.

As low as the price is, their performance is the opposite.

As an experiment, I had added a Vifa NE19 Alucone tweeter, crossed at 10khz. Not that the sound suffered from crispy tones, but the extra tweeter just brought a little wider sound, although some listener preferred the tweeterless solution much more.

Concaeve RAPide with Scan Speak 10F fullrange and Vifa NE19 tweeter

Cornerwoofer with Peerless 835017 XXLS woofer to fit with ScanSpeak 10F

The Satelites were driven by a Lyngdorf TDAI2200 and crossed at 250 hz, 8th order.

Regards,
Ed.

That's borderline cute! Did you just throw a cap on the tweeter since you were crossing at 10kHz? Did you add any roll-off to the woofer?

[b_force]

Not yet- works been a b*tch. Wish I could give an ETA, but it may be a while as finishing the Ardents will have higher priority for now.

Did you already had some time to measure some things?

Heard the 10F from Asterduc and they sound really nice! :T

[Asterduc]

That's borderline cute!

thanx, they indeed look cute, especially the tweet! wasn't easy to mill them though.

Images not available

Did you just throw a cap on the tweeter since you were crossing at 10kHz? Did you add any roll-off to the woofer?

6/6 is what it is. 12mH coil and 3,3uF cap with 1 Ohm res in serie. It wasn't a good match yet since the roll-off of the 10F needed somewhat more. An additional cap over he 10F would have made it a better marriage. Anyway, as it was just for fun, it worked well enough.

I currently run it in my home studio with no tweeter on it and I like it that way. For the low end I have pair of cornerwoofers running with the ScanSpeak 25W8567-SE in it.

Images not available

Regards,
Ed.

[Bear]

thanx, they indeed look cute, especially the tweet! wasn't easy to mill them though.

Images not available

6/6 is what it is. 12mH coil and 3,3uF cap with 1 Ohm res in serie. It wasn't a good match yet since the roll-off of the 10F needed somewhat more. An additional cap over he 10F would have made it a better marriage. Anyway, as it was just for fun, it worked well enough.

I currently run it in my home studio with no tweeter on it and I like it that way. For the low end I have pair of cornerwoofers running with the ScanSpeak 25W8567-SE in it.

Images not available

Regards,
Ed.

Very inspirational! Slightly off-topic, but consistent with your own build pictures: Did you build the CNC machine yourself or is it a kit? What size table are you using? Also, what cutting rates do you get with the 2010(?, 20mm diameter; 10mm travel per turn) ball screws?

Yes, I'm getting close to getting a CNC machine as well...

Thanks!

Bill

[Mark K]

Well, on a little bit of a muted note, Vance has tests of the 10F in the most recent VC. He was trying to be diplomatic, but it looks like low end extension isn't all that good. I was hoping to get to 200-300 with this, but...

http://audioamateurinc.com/digital/vc/issue/610/

(thanks to critofur at PE for the link)

[JonMarsh]

Not far far off what I would have expected- the system concept I was considering for these would use 4 for each speaker, was thinking in terms of 350 Hz to 400 Hz. For a single one, I wouldn't go lower than 500 Hz for the nominal crossover point, I'd guess.

Sorry to see the Xfr offset and nonlinearity, though... that I hadn't expected. Though I'd expect the effects to show up in testing.

[augerpro]

That is strange. What's with the huge step just below 1khz? SS specs don't show this. Also they say the BL offset is intentional then just blow it off as not mattering. If this a good sample I wonder why SS would do that? Are they trying to offset some issue a woofer has when it is in a box and being fed a signal?

[Space]

Four mids for each speaker? Would this be a miniature version of the Whisper Klone / ThomasW's Noir Murmure? Maybe with 10's rather than 15's, and it becomes more socially acceptable...

[Bear]

That is strange. What's with the huge step just below 1khz? SS specs don't show this. Also they say the BL offset is intentional then just blow it off as not mattering. If this a good sample I wonder why SS would do that? Are they trying to offset some issue a woofer has when it is in a box and being fed a signal?

Look at the Klippel results, as well. They are very different than what you would expect from ScanSpeak based on some of Vance's prior tests. Flawed sample?