Pssst, want a sneek peek at a brand new driver?

[cdwitmer]

Speaking of XBL^2 . . .

Perhaps you'd like a side order of fullrange fries to go with your sub?

CSS 4.5-inch fullrange (wide range) driver with XBL^2 motor - 8, 16 ohm versions



"Pre-Order Special: US$99/pair"

I couldn't find any specs, though.

Christopher Witmer
Tokyo

[Bing Fung]

I could use one of these in a 12" sub "RIGHT NOW" 8)

[ThomasW]

Here are a few photos of the production units. They feature an inverted carbon fiber dust cap .... :wink:

First is the 'small' 12" , the second is the 'small' 15", third is the 'large' 15"

forth is the magnet assembly for the 'small' 12", and last is a shot of the excursion of the 'small' 12"

[Al Garay]

This sounds like Chad's venture.

Al

[Jerry Pease]

Here are a few photos of the production units. They feature an inverted carbon fiber dust cap .... :wink:

First is the 'small' 12" , the second is the 'small' 15", third is the 'large' 15"

forth is the magnet assembly for the 'small' 12", and last is a shot of the excursion of the 'small' 12"

pictures look nice, what about pre-order info?

[Bing Fung]

WOW, very nice looking 8) Absolutely love the carbon fiber cap..

Too bad the whole driver isn't made with it. :cry:

So when can we get the 15" ?? :twisted:

[Dustin B]

When can we see the T/S for all of them?

[ThomasW]

This sounds like Chad's venture.

Yes it is, that info was posted a while back. Until the actual launch of the new company, this is pretty much the 'official' thread about the products.

Absolutely love the carbon fiber cap.. Too bad the whole driver isn't made with it.

The reality is that exotic materials raise the costs a lot. And though they certainly look cool, in reality they offer minimal performance advantages for subwoofers.

At this point I've posted all the T/S parameters I have......

I'm not withholding info and posting it in dribs and drabs. I post the info here as I receive it.

The drivers are going to be available in November.

Often for new driver offerings, preproduction or pre-order customer sales money is used to fund the start up, and there are frequently months of delays. Here the bulk of the inventory will be available when the company launches. As a result one will be able to place an order and receive that order in a matter of days.

[Bing Fung]

The reality is that exotic materials raise the costs a lot. And though they certainly look cool, in reality they offer minimal performance advantages for subwoofers.

Yeah I know Thomas, but you know me, I have a Carbon Fiber and Titanium fetish :W

Thanks for taking time to post the latest.


Hey Dustin :later: Fellow Toontown boy :T

[ThomasW]

Yeah I know Thomas, but you know me, I have a Carbon Fiber and Titanium fetish

Bing,

I think there are 'peel-n-stick' products for guys like you :wink:

[David Meek]

:E :E :E Oh, I am SO not going to go there. . . . :B

[Hank]

Go ahead and buy the peel-and-stick mock carbon fiber! Please! It's most likely got my company's adhesive on it :W

[Bing Fung]

I think there are 'peel-n-stick' products for guys like you :wink:

Oh your so wicked Thomas :twisted: Only thing is it could look kinda shoudy placed besides the Real carbon fiber cap :B

David :lol:

Hank, would the adhesive affect the tonal quality of the driver? :B

[ThomasW]

Ask and ye shall receive, here are the T/S parameters for the 18"

Fs 16 Hz
Qms 6.0
Qes .429
Qts .40
Vas 550 Liters
Re 3.2 ohms
Znom 4 ohms
Sd 1210

Also here is some info so that people understand the economics of exotic cone materials. Were a carbon fiber cone to be made for the 'small' 12" driver, the tooling costs alone would increase the price of the driver from the anticipated $165 to $250. And I guarantee there would not be an equal percentage increase in overall performance

[Ten 99]

Bing, let's leave the CF and Ti on our cars, where it's more usefull!

As in Ti Exhaust, CF Torque Tubes, etc.

I don't know if CF has much positive affect on speaker cones over other stiff and light materials such as Alum, Kevlar, paper/pulp, etc? What about those wood fiber pulp cones like this, are they just for looks or hype or what?

[Bing Fung]

Ten, Oh Yeah! Titanium exhausts, those are wayy cool :T

Thomas, sure the cost would be more, but it would be cool :T However I know where you're coming from, put the cost in to more effective performance gains

It would be interesting to see the sonic characteristics of various cones. A carbon fiber one could be made paper thin, thiner than regular pulp cones, yet be lighter ansd stiffer. I suppose then you run into problems such as potential stress cracking on a hard working cone like a Sub driver. :roll:

I like the look of aluminum drivers too.

However these Atlas (?) are beauty too!

[Hank]

Hank, would the adhesive affect the tonal quality of the driver?

Oh yes! We've made sure to incorporate molecular bonding parameters that assure the valance ring attraction is such that the adhesive bond resonates at multiple even-order frequencies that induce a rapid vibration-decay transfer function. The ultimate constrained layer app. :T

[Bent]

Can anybody offer some insight as to a name for this company?

(Or did I miss something really obvious?)

[ThomasW]

Bent,

You didn't miss anything, that info hasn't been posted, and can't be posted at this time.

[Jack Gilvey]

Wow...that 18" looks amazing. The maximally flat sealed Unibox model looks almost identical to a quartet of DPL-12's in output and FR with an F3 below 30Hz but with a smaller box, $200 lower price, and the XBL2 motor...nice.
A 350L box vented to 16Hz looks...insane.

[iron_monkey]

Regarding the 27mm+ travel series: All drivers Ive seen with that much excursion have 2 stacks of magnets or more. This series has a magnet system that is wide but shallow/thin, since it only has one magnet piece. The magnetic field stength would be concentrated in a small interval of the long travel, while in 2/3 stack motors the magnetic field strength would be spread out alot more along the travel, which I guess is better for high excursion drivers. I speculate that is the reason why most if not all drivers with so much travel have thick magnet systems with 2 or more stacks of magnets.
Is what I described a significant concern?

[ThomasW]

Is what I described a significant concern?

The pole piece, front plate, and back plate effectively make the magnet larger than it's actual physical size

[Bing Fung]

Oh yes! We've made sure to incorporate molecular bonding parameters that assure the valance ring attraction is such that the adhesive bond resonates at multiple even-order frequencies that induce a rapid vibration-decay transfer function. The ultimate constrained layer app. :T

Kind of like a high tech "Whizzer Cone"? :lol:

Good answer Hank :rofl:

[Hank]

Re-birth of the whizzer cone. Right here. You read it first. Now go forth and purchase peel-'n-stick fake carbon fiber for you dust caps, driver frames, CD mats, turntable mats, equipment knobs, car dashboard, etc, etc... :lol:

[JonMarsh]

Hey Hank,

Do you know where I can get some peel and stick carbon fiber for decorating my new Compaq laptop? Barring that, maybe some peel and stick Yakk foreskin, as you suggested for our new speaker cones?

[Bing Fung]

Hey Jon, you can actually get it at your local Kustom Auto parts seller. Most Speed shops will have it.

Barring that you can buy it on like here Carbon Look

The Yak Foreskin... May be a bit tougher to find in peel n stick :lol:

[Jack Gilvey]

Regarding the 27mm+ travel series: All drivers Ive seen with that much excursion have 2 stacks of magnets or more. This series has a magnet system that is wide but shallow/thin, since it only has one magnet piece. The magnetic field stength would be concentrated in a small interval of the long travel, while in 2/3 stack motors the magnetic field strength would be spread out alot more along the travel, which I guess is better for high excursion drivers. I speculate that is the reason why most if not all drivers with so much travel have thick magnet systems with 2 or more stacks of magnets.
Is what I described a significant concern?

More info on the XBL2

XBL2TechPaper.pdf

XBL2DetailsPaper.pdf

[iron_monkey]

More info on the XBL2

XBL2TechPaper.pdf

XBL2DetailsPaper.pdf

so XBL does directly address the issue I brought up. But time will tell whether it really does make a big difference, as more people buy XBL drivers esp with the first affordable models described here.

[ThomasW]

I haven't actually heard an XBL^2 driver.

Nousaine uses a 10% distortion level when measuring the output of the subs he tests. He claims that for subs, a distortion level of 10% is inaudible.

Should be interesting to see what happens when he cranks up an XBL^2 driver to get a 10% distortion level.

[Bent]

Tom may not survive to report 10% distortion on an XBL^2 driver.

[ThomasW]

Tom may not survive to report 10% distortion on an XBL^2 driver.

My thoughts exactly, I'd love to see a video of that first test ............. :roflmao:

[CJ Paul]

I know you guys are joking around, but what would actually happen in this situation. Would the driver reach some kind of physical (and catastrophic) limitation before it hit 10%?

[ThomasW]

No quite the opposite.............

The output from a big driver with XBL^2 technology at 10% distortion would probably blow down the walls of Nousaine's room, or put him in the hospital, before damage was done to the driver :wink:

[Brian Bunge]

I can tell you from experience that I never heard any signs of distortion when I fried one of the voice coils on my Tumult. This was while watching the Pod Race scene and using a Crown K2 bridged to 2400W with an LT circuit. I was testing out the sub in a roughly 15x30x15 concrete room at least 6' from any wall. I turned up the volume a few more clicks and suddenly heard a "clank, clank" sound. The sub was still pounding away but just had the additional fried VC sound. Up until that point I didn't hear the driver straining at all.

[Mark K]

Oh boy, I hate to get on the wrong side of this, but I can convince anyone, quite easily with test tones, that 10% distortion is quite audible for frequencies below 50-60 Hz.

Say you generate a 20 hz tone with 10% distortion that hits your ear at 100dB. This is not alot. The perception of loudness, in Phons, is only 60dB, i.e. not very loud.

Now, if there is 10% distortion, that means that the magnitude of the distortion is only down 20dB, i.e. say the second order distortion product will be 80dB.

Well, this is a major problem. Because of the ears increasing sensitivity to higher frequencies, this 80dB second order distortion product at 40 Hz also sounds like, well 60 Phons.

Or, to put it another way, what you perceive is two tone of equal magnitude 20 hz and 40 hz. Tom Nousaine might not perceive it as distortion, but if you compare this to a 20 hz signal generated by Thomas's 12 shivas that has less than 1% distortion (and I'm pulling a number out of thin air here) you'll note that the perceived tone is much different. It gets even worse if higher order distortion is occurring.

So the character of the tone is quite different, if not perceived as distortion as such.

It's very easy to generate these tones and listen to the amount of distortion occurring.

People way underestimate the low amounts of distortion needed to reproduce bass faithfully.

[Jack Gilvey]

so XBL does directly address the issue I brought up. But time will tell whether it really does make a big difference,

DUMAX tests confirm that it does achieve its goal of a flattened, extended Bl curve. The low distortion can be seen in this test of the Adire Sadhara, does nicely in some very expensive company:

https://web.archive.org/web/20041106183258/http://ultimateavmag.com/features/704way/index1.html

[ThomasW]

Oh gees everyone got so serious all of a sudden...............

Bent and I were just enjoying the 'illusion' of TN's house looking like it got hit by a tornado when in reality it was just a XBL^2 woofer test ....... :B :B

[Mark K]

Hey, sorry to get too serious 8O I too am curious about this xbl technology and these drivers look really beautiful. It may be worth $165 to play with a 12".

My only point was that it really pays big time to get very, very low distortion in the subwoofer frequency range.

[Bent]

well, in defense, that is just one of the illusions I like to enjoy...

[iron_monkey]

The second line of subwoofers was designed to offer massive bang-for-the-buck. Again, they feature new motors I designed that also use XBL^2 technology. These models feature dual ~6 inch magnets and 18+ mm of xmax, and are initially available in both 12 and 15 inch versions.

Thomas, Is he implying that there will be a 18" 18+Xmax version in the near future?

[ThomasW]

Mark K,

Understand that yes we certainly agree that low distortion is extremely important. And I too am quite curious to play with an XBL^2 driver.

But the image of TN's hair standing on end, the house looking like it was hit by a tornado, and an intact driver with XBL^2 printed on it, is just too funny.. :rofl:

The reality like Brian B's Tumult story is probably similar to the situation with the baby SS revelator woofers, they don't show signs of distress. So one can turn them up and up and up then poof!, their toast

[davidfunke]

What's the good word on these subwoofers?

Is the website up yet?

David

[ThomasW]

As additional info is available it will be posted.

[Scott Simonian]

I can't wait to see these drivers for real! Whose having fun modeling these drivers? I can make some pretty decent vented designs. My favorite so far would be the 18" in a 600 litre cab tuned to 14hz. I modeled that at 600 watts. Looks f'n awesome.

What are you guys gonna do with yours?

[Stevepaul]

Scott,

I, too, am waiting for the 18". I have a space for about 400 liters with it tuned to 17hz. FYI.....ThomasW encouraged use of at least an 8" port to minimize port noise....and 'Unibox' bears this out.

I agree, the SPL and F3 numbers I am getting with 500watts input power border on insane.

Can't wait to be insane...!

Steve