MTMs for my brother this time!

[PMazz]

Well, this time my brother has asked about speakers. He's having a house built that will have a large family room and kitchen (19 x 50) open space. He's heard my LAs and wants decent speakers. He hasn't had a stereo setup in about ten years and is itching to get his jazz collection out of storage.

Considering the size of the room....and still wanting to try the M8s.....I was thinking of Tibors MTMs. I have always liked sealed enclosures but was concerned about output. I seriously doubt he'll ever want to crank it up but ya never know . I'm also partial to floorstanders as I'd need to build stands anyway for bookshelves. Besides, the MTMs need some Vb, so I think that route is best. He will probably place them somewhere on the long wall of the fam room and may not pull them far enough out from the front wall. Should I worry about BS (if the sealed xover even has it?).

I have perused the Audioworx site and D/Led the xover schematics (thanks guys!). Supposedly PE is getting the M8ns in stock the end of the month (fingers crossed). The XT25 tweet is still available and reasonably priced.

I'm open to any and all suggestions.

Pete


PS: I'm also tempted to order a dozen more for the next iteration of the LAs. With the price drop, they seem to be a very reasonable fit for handling the 500Hz and down. Or I could be nuts because the Daytons do a very nice job......but I will definitely give them a side by side comparison when I get the M8s.......but I should just order them so I'll have them before they disappear again......AARRGHH!

[Ten 99]

Pete, I'd go ported considering the room size. If pulling the floorstanders out from the wall isn't an option, downfire the ports. That's what Jon did on the M8ta's.

I'm pretty certain that I'll be building the M8ta's myself. Love that Avalon speakers shaping, and the driver's pricing is right on. I'll probably do XT25's for tweeters at first, and then come back and replace them with the 9800's later when I've got the spare money to throw at them. There's other equipment that could stand improvement before that.

Chris.

[ThomasW]

Should I worry about BS (if the sealed xover even has it?).

I don't know about the BS part, :B
But you can bet your sweet bippie that ported or sealed, near to wall, or far from wall it has BSC ... :wink:

Ported or sealed it doesn't matter, IMO either should be used with a sub. There's simply a fixed limit as to the output of 8" drivers, even when using 4 of them. This is not to say that they have weak LFE output. Quite the opposite I am amazed at the amount of bass Tibor's have, but to protect the drivers they should be used with a sub for HT. Now if one is going to use them for 2 channel music only then a sub is probably optional unless one is heavy into reggae' or rap/hip-hop......

Also we have no idea as to whether or not these drivers can be serviced (reconed). For their reasonable cost there is absolutely nothing their equal. So error on the side of saftey when it comes to their use.

One benefit of ported is that for a given output level the excursion level of the woofers is quite a bit lower = less strain on the drivers.

The bass output from the M8a-MKIV is tight and well defined. I recommend making the boxes ported, with the obvious option of sealing the port if not satisfied.

[PMazz]

As money gets back to normal he'll probably buy a DD reciever and want surrounds and a sub but for now it's just 2-channel. Of course he will probably pump DVD soundtracks thru his stereo.

BS.....BSC......Whatever! Damned acronyms.

I did a closer look at the MTM xovers last nite. I will have to cut corners on caps somewhere. If I used decent caps for any series connections and maybe use the PE Bipolar electrolytics with a bypass cap or 2 for the parallel, I could bring these in under budget.

BTW, any good write-ups of the application and use of bypass caps. What will electrolytics do (or don't do) to a signal?

Couple more specific xover questions:
1) C2101 = 136 uF?
2) Does 8u75 = 8.75 uF? (C1031)
3) 1UH = .1mH?
4) Is R2071 and R2081 the tweeter Lpad?
5) Should R1061 be multiple paralleled resistors?

Pete "I'll build a version of these if it kills me" Mazz

And just when PE is to get the M8ns back in stock, the XT25 is out of stock... :M ...Oh well they have the shielded and it's only a few bucks more.

[Paul H]

Ported or sealed it doesn't matter, IMO either should be used with a sub. There's simply a fixed limit as to the output of 8" drivers, even when using 4 of them. This is not to say that they have weak LFE output. Quite the opposite I am amazed at the amount of bass Tibor's have, but to protect the drivers they should be used with a sub for HT. Now if one is going to use them for 2 channel music only then a sub is probably optional unless one is heavy into reggae' or rap/hip-hop......

Pete,

I built the ported version of M8N/XT25 MTM's, and can confirm Thomas' comments as being totally accurate. This was actually my 'design intent', to use the speakers as full range for music and turn on the sub for HT. The sub is not at all required IMO for music (rock, jazz), and is a must for HT, as the 5.5mm xmax for 8" cones just doesn't cut it for loud effects at 20-40hz.

As far as output goes for music, they're comfortable playing louder than I'm comfortable listening in a 24'x17' room - I've measured them in the mid-90dB range from 6-7' away, and that wasn't max output, just some "how loud is loud" tinkering with my RS meter by me.

See this link for info on a pile of practical issues for building these speakers - I might not have asked every dumb question there is, but came close

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3606

Paul

[ThomasW]

Pete,

Unfortunately everything in the XO is critical to sound quality. It's not like a 3-way where one can use low buck components in the woofer section of the XO. Here we're XOing at 1250Hx, so component quality = sound quality

1) C2101 = 136 uF?
2) Does 8u75 = 8.75 uF? (C1031)
3) 1UH = .1mH?
4) Is R2071 and R2081 the tweeter Lpad?
5) Should R1061 be multiple paralleled resistors?

1)yes
2)yes
3)example 700 UH = .7mH
4)yes, actually we recommend getting the Phoenix Gold 4 ohm L-Pad from PE use it to set the tweeter level (the schematic is of course a computer model)
5)can't hurt, but not mandatory

[PMazz]

Paul, I'll have to give that thread a re-read, thanks.

Tom, even using bypass caps? Of course I'm not real sure how all that works. I thought anything in series was the critical path. How about the Dayton polys? I have used Solens before but honestly never compared any of them. And keep in mind, my brother's equipment is Low-Fi stuff.

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete,

We don't believe in the use of bypass caps.....

The cap cost is cut 1/2 if you build the caps from the 10mfd GE caps that Madisound sells. The 100pc price is $.90ea. So $10 for a high quality 100mdf metalized poly film cap

Jon's compared the GE and the Solens it's basically a wash......

You'd be building a $3500-$5000 speaker. Your brother can upgrade his electronics multiple times and not surpass the quality of the speakers

[PMazz]

OK, doing these with the GE caps will put me on the edge of the budget (what else is new ).

I like the idea of bottom porting, although rear porting is probably easier and will work just as well. I'll talk him out of shoving the speakers against the wall .

I talked to him last nite and the shell is going up now. Kind of a wierd situation. He's building a pole barn on the farm but will add partition walls to make it a 3 bedroom ranch. It won't be making the cover of Better Homes anytime soon . At least running wire will be easy.

OK, now as long as PE gets them in stock, we're in shape.

Pete

[PMazz]

I just got done re-reading the MTM thread documenting Paul's work. Very nice!

Paul, unless I missed it, I didn't see final pics??? If the finish turned out as nice as the cabinets would suggest, they must be stunning!

I'm also wondering if PE will get the M8ns in stock but have so many BOs that they disappear once again. Anyone talk to them recently?

I hope my brother is getting as excited about these as I am . I'm guessing that his thought processes are more concerned with the actual house building, so I'll have to contain some of my enthusiasm. Besides, being around construction all my life, he's got more mundane questions.....

Pete

[ThomasW]

Something's goofy with PE and the M8 Hi-Vi drivers. The drivers are shipped 6/case. It appears that they're only getting one or two cases every few months.

PE sent Jon M8ns for evaluation. Now, they never seem have any drivers available. And when people are building MTM's, that tends to use up drivers at a fairly fast rate.

To date I've not seen any other DIY designs using these drivers. I find it difficult to believe that the Arvo, M8-MKIV and Tibor's MTM design are using up the entire US allotment of these drivers ?

I like to support our advertisers, but it looks like Solen is becoming the only viable option for these drivers.

We can switch the design over to use the Excel W-22. But those are really $pendy, and may not provide a significant improvement in SQ

[Paul H]

Paul, unless I missed it, I didn't see final pics??? If the finish turned out as nice as the cabinets would suggest, they must be stunning!

Pete

Pete,

I've been ridiculously busy at work for the last few months, and I'm reluctant to dismantle my system because I'm really enjoying it during the moments of relaxation I do get. When I finally finish these I'll certainly post pics.

Paul

[PMazz]

To date I've not seen any other DIY designs using these drivers. I find it difficult to believe that the Arvo, M8-MKIV and Tibor's MTM design are using up the entire US allotment of these drivers ?

Maybe your designs are more popular than you thought?

Paul, I hear ya! I have yet to actually put a finish on any of my speakers..... ops:

I'll give Bev a call and see what's up.

Pete

[Daryl Furkalo]

Well, I have 6 M8n's on order at PE right now, so I account for one case. The date is sliding back almost every day now too.

[ThomasW]

Daryl,

Given you're location you might want to cancel the PE order, and grab units from Solen. That should save shipping/customs/import duty hassles. And it might free up some drivers for Pete .... :wink:

Pete,

At this point in time, using HT-Guide threads, and emails as indicators, there are no more than a dozen people building all these designs combined. So I don't think the popularity of our designs is causing the driver shortages. The backlog appears to be availablity from Swan and the fact that PE stopped selling the M8a and can't seem to get M8n's. Solen may come to everyone's rescue ......

[PMazz]

I talked to Bev at PE today. She really couldn't say anymore than Hi-Vi is one of those lines that are hard to deal with. According to her, there are no BOs waiting. Hard to believe.

I bit the bullet and placed the orders at PE and Madisound. All in stock but the M8ns and one of the cap sizes. A quick substitute for the cap value and all is well. I had to order the Vifa XT25 shielded version, as the regulars are out of stock. Bev cut me a deal on them and they're on the way.

Started thinking about the design. I'm pretty sure my brother will want grills, so I'm basing part of the design with that in mind. The only problem is I'll have too long to think about it. Dangerous for me..... .

Anyone know the exact cut-out size for the M8ns? With a grill, I'll probably surface mount them and use some felt maybe, under the grill.

At least I can wire up the xover. Ah the smell of solder again! :B

I'll try to document the build process if you guys want. Old hat, I know.

Now to start looking at veneers.....

Pete

[Ten 99]

Grills? BLECH!!!

Just kidding.

I don't like grills, but depends on the grand master of the household a lot of times (yes, I mean the wifey!).

BTW, Pete, you are a good brother.

When I was building my parents towers (my first DIY speakers), I was wanting to try what had been described by Hank and some others -- using small neo magnets for the speaker grills.

I actually really liked the results. What I did was to make a template out of 1/4" hardboard (MDF, or HDF). The template had the outer edge of the grilles, the inner cutout shape, and the holes where the magnets would go. I used four magnets on each grill, and four on each cabinet. Truly, I believe you could get by with just four magnets per speaker and grill combo, and just use some ferrous buried metal in the MDF for the magnets to attach to. But the magnets aren't that expensive, and the two magnets working to pull each other together works good. For obvious reasons, make sure you don't have them working against each other.

The template was then placed onto 1/2" MDF, and after I used a jigsaw to roughly cutout the shapes of the grills, leaving a bit of a margin in and outside, I used a flushtrim bit with the template attached to the semi-rough cutouts (double sided tape to hold together) and brought the grills into shape. Then with the template still attached, I drilled my recesses for the magnets. I then removed the templates and placed them on the towers, and drilled recesses in the towers. It's better to drill just a bit too deep here than too shallow or too exact. I attached the magnets into the grill frames and into the towers using some 5 minute epoxy. I then filled in any divet in the towers using some putty mix of yellow glue and MDF sawdust, then sanded flat when dry.

I veneered right over the magnets. The thing I really like about this approach, is that if you don't want the grills on, then you don't have the unsightly grill attachment receptacles on the speakers. If you do, then the grills are very easy to attach and self centering. I was very happy with the results, and so were my folks. My dad preferred the look without, but my mom (the grandmaster of the ol' homestead) preferred with.

Once again, I have to thank the DIY community, specificly Hank and whoever else helped dream up that rather crafty solution. Thanks guys.

:T

[ThomasW]

Pete,

Swan shows the ID of the M8n frame as 178mm (187 for the M8a).

I really suggest waiting until you actually have the drivers in hand before making the cutouts.

Given PE's track record with these drivers, you may end up needing to get drivers from Solen. And there's enough difference between the M8a and M8n to change the layout of everything on the front baffle.

Grill aren't a bit deal especially considering he's not using real revealing gear. Just turn up the L-pad a little to compensate for the grill cloth. I tend to use the Marine grade Velcro. It's more forgiving than trying to align the magnets.

[PMazz]

I wondered how good the grills would be held in place by just magnets until I tried to pull one off a speaker. Unbelievable. I still have some leftover from Chris's IB, so I'll go that route.

I wasn't going to do an Lpad, but ordered a few extra resistors instead. I personally like a slightly rolled off high end, so I'll leave it until I do some measurements. I figure if I get them built before he's ready to move in, I'll just have to suffer and break them in for him.

Pete

[ThomasW]

I'm just lazy that's why I use the Velcro.

We use the L-pads to determine the fixed resistor value. Adjust the L-pad to the desired output level. Remove it from the circuit and measure the values. Then grab appropriate resistors for the fixed l-pad.

[Hank]

Chris, I'm glad you did the magnetic grill thing. I thought that up a few years ago, then saw that Danny of GR Research was actually doing it. My new A/V-3's are like that - rosewood veneer over the buried magnets. Those little 1/4" thick by 1/4" diameter neodymium magnets are unbelievably strong. :E

[PMazz]

I know this has been asked before but damn if this doesn't look like the tweeter is wired reversed.

The guys at the shop have told me some UPS deliveries have come in with my name on 'em. As I've been on the road at meetings, I'll have to do a drive -by and check it out.

Hey Hank, where you been hiding?

Doing some design sketches keep leaving me short of ideal Vb. I was hoping tp come in between 3 1/2 and 4 ft^3, but with double wall construction, the size keeps growing. I may have to scale back a wee bit, but 3 1/4 ft^3 looks to be the smallest that still rolls off nicely while getting a single 4" flared port to fit.

Pete

[JonMarsh]

The Tweeter phase IS supposed to be reversed! This crossover works like an 8th order L-R in the transistion region, and it requires reversed phase, as does the 2nd order L-R.

Regards,

Jon

[PMazz]

Hi Jon. Thanks, I thought I was seeing things. Being electronically challenged has it's drawbacks.

I'll have to re-read your thread to see how you're doing a bottom porting. I may decide to go that route.

Damn you Tom! I sent my brother the pics of Tibor's MTMs and he fell in love. Now I have to find some veneer that resmbles those or I'll look bad. I was hoping to take a run to my supplier and see if any "shop grade" veneer was available (basically "A" grade with a few dings here and there). They usually sell it for 1/3 of the cost. Problem is you have to like what they've got.

I was thinking to use a black laminate for the backs to try to keep it under a 4x8 but looking at the size of the enclosure, it'll probably take 2 anyway.

Pete

[ThomasW]

Damn you Tom! I sent my brother the pics of Tibor's MTMs....

Oops my bad ... :wink:

[PMazz]

Ran by the shop today to do some work and see what came in. All but the M8ns, as expected. I also ordered the Dayton gold binding posts, as I've given up using terminal cups. Just a couple 1/4" holes and besides, I think they look better.

Damn, that's a lot of caps! And they're larger than I thought they'd be, especially the 600V 2Uf that I ordered as a substitute for the 400V that were out of stock. Hopefully I can reach all the desired values with the sizes I ordered.

I cut some 1/4" and I'll start the "gang of caps" first. Once I get a feel for sizes, I'll do a layout on the board and see if it'll lay flat in the bottom of the enclosure. Assuming it all fits on a single board, of course.

I'm thinking of angling the front, top and rear of the enclosure, just to make my life more complicated . Actually I thought if the top was smaller, they wouldn't look as large. That and my sister-in-law won't be tempted to "decorate" them by putting a plant or something on top of them. So I'm looking at ~14" deep on top and ~20" on the bottom with a slight tilt on the front and somewhat more on the back.

I'm going to use 3/4" construction with extra bracing. I'll line the back and top with some 2" 703 since I already have plenty. If I can get the whole xover on a single board I may make a seperate compartment on the bottom and use a removeable plinth. Depends how rushed I get .

So, if you smell smoke, that'll be me in the garage with solder flowing and a cigar blowing .

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete,

I glue up the cluster caps as individual units (blocks), then optimize the XO layout and glue them down to Masonite.

We have some bus wire, with a elec drill we twist up 4 or 8 strands into a thick cable and solder all the cap leads to it. Radio Shack sells a 50' roll of stranded copper antenna wire. One can just cut lengths of that, tin it, and make something similar.

[Paul H]

Also when you've twisted the "bus wires" for your caps, tin them - it makes them rigid and therefore much easier to twist the cap leads around and make a good connection.

Paul

[Hank]

Hey Hank, where you been hiding?

Pete, thanks for asking. I, like Jon, have become the victim of corporate management productivity improvement. I was given another division's Sourcing responsibility. It's a big division, Electrical Markets Division (think electrical tape, spade, crimp and butt connectors, everything from low voltage to 25kv and up super-insulating splices, etc, in their inch-thick catalog). That division alone is a full-time job. I go to meetings in person, teleconference meetings with our U.S., Europe, Latin America and Asia Pacific plants and suppliers, etc, etc. I feel like I'm doing no productive work. If I were a conspiracy devotee, I'd think THEY are trying to drive me crazy. I think I'll go out in the garage tomorrow and slice up two sheets of 1/2" MDF for about 10 pair of my BozeBuster speakers, just to get a feeling of accomplishment.
Sorry to vent guys, but I'm bummed out. I watch excerpts of "Office Space" about every other week now.
Say, these forums could be considered a modern form of therapy. Hmmm...I can see it now, not in neon, but on the net: "Hank's American Job Issues Counseling" forum.
HAJIC, your path to sanity!

[PMazz]

Yea, first thing I did was heat up the glue gun. I used 14 G solid to use as rails. Using the solid wire, I didn't need to tin it.

I soldered up 1 of the tweeter circuits and layed it out on the board. I'm hard wiring the 2 sections, instead of the terminal strip between them. I will use the terminal strip for the input from the binding posts and the output to the drivers.

So far looks like the cap values are working out well. I ordered 100-10Uf and used 90. I also ordered some 5, 2 and .68 in smaller quantities to true up the gangs of 10 and use for the couple single digit values. All the inductors are Jentzen 15G air core. Decent quality for the $.

Hank.....And you were talking Jon into coming to Austin to find a less stressful job??? Be careful when using power tools for stress relief. You may wind up relieving yourself of some of your digits. How about golf?

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete,

Please photo document your XO's and the speaker building. When everyone has their versions built, I'd like them to send me pics. I'll create a photo gallery if they can't host the pics themselves.

If you want to sell them, I'll buy your leftover caps. They could be shipped out when you've finished auditioning the balanced power unit.

[PMazz]

I got the xover sections all soldered. The cap values I ordered worked out perfectly.

If anyone's interested I used:

90 - 10 uf
6 - 5 uf
16 - 2 uf
4 - .68 uf

Tom, I was going to throw the leftovers in my parts box, but if you need them I have 10-10uf, 4-5uf, 14-2uf and 16-.68uf. I wouldn't mind keeping the 10s and 5s but if you want em you got em. Let me know. I'll send the 2s and .68s as rent for the Cheapskate try out .

I'll make sure to take some pics. I only wired in 1 L-Pad till I do some listening and tests.

It looks like the entire xover assembly will fit flat into the base of the speaker, assuming a 20" depth.

So far, so good. :T

I'll post some pics tomorrow.

Pete

[Hank]

How about golf?

For stress relief???! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
They're coming to take me away, ha-ha! They're coming to take me away, ho-ho! They're coming to take me away hee-hee!

You know what would help? A very challenging speaker project. Out of the box. A line array. RD-50's and four 12" drivers of the metal cone persuasion. Perhaps dipole? :huh:
:twisted:

Well then, back to over-the-top $$ responsibility tomorrow. :thud:

[PMazz]

Here's a pic of the rough layout on a board 10"W x 18"L.


Image not available


Note the LPad isn't installed and the separate modules aren't connected yet. From left to right: Woofer LP, Tweeter HP, and Tweeter Zobel.

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete, looking good ........ :B

No I certainly don't need any caps, I have 3 full boxes of the 10mdf caps and bunches of the other values. I was just going to take them off your hands if they weren't wanted/needed.

Hank,

Maybe we can get a group discount for you and Jon at the local psych hosp if you guys can sync up your nervous breakdowns .......... :rofl:

[taz13]

Line Array

Maybe with a set of M8N's!! :T

[JonMarsh]

Those crossovers are ooking good!

You're "embarassing" me into making some progress on my Arvo crossovers- now have the three boards for one side "assembled", and working on wiring them up. I suspect you're going to beat me to the punch, though! :B

~Jon

[JonMarsh]

For stress relief???! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
They're coming to take me away, ha-ha! They're coming to take me away, ho-ho! They're coming to take me away hee-hee!

You know what would help? A very challenging speaker project. Out of the box. A line array. RD-50's and four 12" drivers of the metal cone persuasion. Perhaps dipole? :huh:
:twisted:

Well then, back to over-the-top $$ responsibility tomorrow. :thud:

This sounds SOOO familiar! The problem is finding the time for the therapy, huh??

ThomasW thinks my bod is starting to rebel with minor illnesses to get me "time off"! :roll: He could be right....

Well, when I get up to 480 hours of accumulated time off, then my boss will have to pay attention...

That's not far away- will occur this calendar year.

~Jon

[David Meek]

Uh Jon, that's 60 days off! 'nuff said. 8O :nonod:

One thing this thread is doing is showing me just how far I have to go in learning about cross-overs. Can y'all recommend any books/sites that'll get me moving in the right direction?

[PMazz]

Thanks guys.

Now that the xovers are to the point of waiting for drivers and enclosures, I've been playing with designs and sizes more. It looks like I'll be ~44" high and 20"D, by 12"W of course. I'm definitely going to do a seperate sub-base for the xovers, built into a plinth of sorts. I still need to pick out veneer, maybe today.

I started thinking more about grills. If I use some felt incorporated into the back of the grill (still got to figure out how), could I cheat a little on driver spacing left to right. I know this is usually a no-no, but won't the felt and the grills change the baffle diffraction anyway?

PE shows 8/20 now as arrival of the M8ns. Keeping fingers tightly crossed....

Regarding the back side of the tweeter, do you guys recommend any damping material or even a seperate enclosure? I have the shielded version and thought it may help.

Jon, funny thing about accumulating time off is......you actually need to use it to realize the benefits of having it :B .

Pete

[JonMarsh]

Thanks guys.

Regarding the back side of the tweeter, do you guys recommend any damping material or even a seperate enclosure? I have the shielded version and thought it may help.

Jon, funny thing about accumulating time off is......you actually need to use it to realize the benefits of having it :B .

Pete

Oh, it isn't he who dies with the most paid time off pending that wins? :B


Seriously, I do normally put a couple of panels behind the tweeter; one with the full size hole cutout, the next just a blank, then drill holes for the wires through the back one. I don't think most tweeters have very stiff front panels, so it would be kind of pointless to do oak re-infored cabinets like I'm fond of, then have the tweeter as an LF/mid re-radiator!

The reinforcement panels could be just MDF, though I'm fond of 3/4" oak board from my local big box store. It's quite a bit stiffer. :B

~Jon

[Hank]

That's not far away- will occur this calendar year.

Jon, I had 326 at the end of June. We probably appear to be idiots. But, if you're in the same boat as me, you can't take a two-week vacation, because what you'd return to would be a mountain of work and a sack o' problems.
You do need to back off a bit, though. For my sanity, I take a half-day vacation lots of Friday afternoons. That also keeps the vacation account system from sending me messages that I'm about to lose a day. You should do something similar, or you WILL suffer physical consequenses (Thomas is correct).
The winner is not the one who dies with the most accumulated vacation hours, it's the one who builds the most speakers! :rofl:

After missing a couple of years, I'm taking a week and going SCUBA diving in October. arty: :dance:

[JonMarsh]

After missing a couple of years, I'm taking a week and going SCUBA diving in October.

That sounds like a great idea. My equivalent would be doing a motorcycle tour of the Canadian Rockies.

What I DO usually do, when I can get time off, is go to Tom's and build speakers- i.e., engineering; what I do for a living. Doesn't make much conventional sense, does it- a bus man's holiday? :W

We're in a "doo doo" situation this year becuase of a big re-organization and de-centralization last year which cost them a lot of key headquarters types in Munich, who wouldn't move to Austria or Singapore. As a result, a lot of work that would normally taken care of by headquarters has got dumped on to "regional marketing and Sales Applications Engineering". So, by default I've become an overworked technical resource in areas I wouldn't normally be dealing with.

My first problem is figuring out how to reclaim my weekends, of which I've had very few (can count on one hand with fingers left over) since mid April.

Then I'll move up to seeing if I can get a week off. I probably get that if we have our typical week long shutdown in November for Thanksgiving, and December for Christmas- but that may turn out like last Thanksgiving, when I was working in an overseas office- this year, it's probably going to be back to Singapore- the exact week in November hasn't been set yet, though, so there's still hope.

Then an internal technical workshop in December in Austria again, though I might weasle out of that, for cost reasons, and send our new hire that's starting in San Jose the beginning of September.

Frankly, right now I need some time off just to get caught up with domestic duties at home! But near term isn't looking good- Intel IDF/ITS right after Labor Day, then two weeks of Biz travel in a row in the US.

Hang in there, Hank- and have fun with the Scuba. I'm still trying to find some time to get out to Colorado...

~Jon

[PMazz]

Well the local supplier had very little veneer in stock. I called my main supplier and have some rift cut white oak coming out tomorrow. I'll take a look and see if I like it.

I'm going around and around with designs. I keep wanting to do something different and have to restrain myself. My brother probably really only wants "a box" as anything else will look over the top for his lifestyle. Maybe I'll just build the box and have the grill as an accent.

This weekend looks like it's filling up with things going on. I doubt I'll make much progress. PE still shows arrival of the M8ns on the 20th so we're getting close.

Pete

[ThomasW]

We'll keep out fingers crossed ............. :T