Using Dayton RS3-Way Towers as In-Wall

[Twan]

Hello, I am new on this Forum.
*
Really like this forum.
I am very interested in the Dayton RS3-WAY towers, I love big speakers, But I would like to build them in a wall behind an audio transparent screen (120"')
My plan is to build a false wall about 7" in front of the original wall.
In this wall I want to make three enclosures with the same volume as the towers but with a depth of only 7 or 8 inches.

Do you guys think that this could work out.
I think that I have to change the crossover for inwall use. (can somebody help me with that ?)

I can't find the original Crossover, Bill of Materials, Final Box, Final Response (with 3/8" felt on either side of the tweeter),Final Impedance, Box innards:
Does anybody know where I can find this ?



Thanking you in advance.

[cjd]

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.divine-audio.com/canaiolo/

I'd say "no" to in-wall. You'll get a ton of bloom in the bass, and no headroom to make up for the sensitivity on the tweeters (or mids, as configured)

Not sure where the crossover you posted is from (I don't remembering doing a TDFC version?!)

I've only done a smaller variant for in-wall at this point, though am vaguely intrigued by upsizing. Don't ask me why.

Also, the Khanspire has been used successfully in that configuration - while it's not as big, it's still pretty nice sized. I think Ryan crosses his to a sub (his are sealed) at 40 or 50Hz.

[Twan]

Thanks cjd
I have looked on your website and found the IN-Wall behind the screen speakers. Looks good to me specially because the crossover is designed for In-Wall.
They are the closed to what I would like (searched for weeks the internet) but if possible I would like to go Bigger I have a whole wall of space with the only restriction that it is only 10 "deep.


I looked at the khanspire they could be great too, going down to 40 Hz. But could I just build them in a false wall and use the same crossover ? (I would have to adjust the depth of the speakers to about 10")


Would be so cool to have Big speakers behind the screen, Speakers that sound Big not like the standard In-Walls.
I have a Sub but still love to listen to Stereo without sub.

[Twan]

Made a design for khanspire behind screen, is this possible ?
My max depth is 8" that's why I am trying this.

Think it should be possible, please give me some feed back on what you guys think.

[Twan]

Khanspire behind screen with minimum depth.



This is an other design that could work.
Can you please give me some feedback.

Twan

[cjd]

The second will be a bit better - neither is perfect, neither is inherently bad, but will definitely have a different diffraction profile. Then again, behind a screen adds its own bit of mess to response.

I think the design intended for in-wall will work better than any of these, and can cross at 60Hz happily (sealed)

[Twan]

The second will be a bit better - neither is perfect, neither is inherently bad, but will definitely have a different diffraction profile. Then again, behind a screen adds its own bit of mess to response.

I think the design intended for in-wall will work better than any of these, and can cross at 60Hz happily (sealed)

Thanks cjd.

I follow your advice and will start on the HT mains, found some information in this threat
[URL="http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?39948-DIY-speakers-for-on-wall-behind-screen/"] I have been looking at the XO's which one would you suggest.

I will try to make a baffle drawing later.
Hope you can check the dimensions for me.
The false wall behind the screen is going to have an accoustic foam on it, should baffle and accoustic foam be on the same level ? (this means that the speaker box is pulled out 1 or 2 inches from the false wall)
Do the two woofers share the same space like the khanspires (40+ Liters in total)
Hope you understand what I mean, for me it is difficult to explain in english.

Twan

[Twan]

Here is my first drawing HT mains
Both enclosures For RS180 22.8 Liter
Enclosure for Tweeter and mid 14,5 Liter
Maybe I have to place some braces.
Baffle is 1.5 Inch (38mm)
rest is 0.75 (19mm)

[cjd]

That should work well - this is far less picky about box volume, etc. though I always like giving a sealed system a little extra.

Mid-tweet being vertically aligned is the core design requirement - you can center up with the 180's, or offset so the 150 edge and 180 edge lines up (I did that to add that extra little bit between the tweeter and the edges of the screen frame)

C

[Twan]

Thanks cjd,

So It would be even better to make the enclosure a bit bigger. say 29 liters per RS180.
The enclosure for the RS150 would get bigger also, 18,5 L is that a problem ?
I have to adjust my offset 25mm (1") is to much. And for the center Speaker no offset ?

Now the baffle width is 15.74" (400mm) this will grow to 19,68" (500mm)

I can also choose to make the enclosures taller say 10 cm (+/-4 ") on both sides, enclosure for rs150 would stay the same.
Can you give me some advice.
Really appreciate that you are helping me Thanks.

Twan

[Twan]

This is the wider version
Volume for RS180 29.1 Liter per woofer.
Volume RS150 + Tweeter 18.5 Liter

Will this be better or should I go taller ?

P.S. is this the right or Left Speaker ?
Twan

[Twan]

Total cost 12-sept-2013

321,76 Dollar per Speaker

[cjd]

You've got the driver layout correct - the RS150 won't be as big a deal to leave the volume lower so you're welcome to do that. How you arrive at volume is up to you; the deeper the box, the better, else you'll need some good reflection control on the back wall - that's really the biggest factor on a shallow box. Height vs width is a matter of convenience.

I centered all the drivers for my center - it's unlikely it will matter significantly for an on-wall design.

Parts-wise, I'd use a single 12.5ohm resistor on the tweeter if you're sourcing from PE for all that. Madisound used to have Eagle 12ohm, and currently they have Mundorf MOX in 12ohm for a decent price. The dual 6ohm is also fine of course.

The tweeter cap would be a potential upgrade candidate if you're into such things.

[Twan]

Thanks cjd,

I still have a few questions,
Do I put accoustic foam on the false wall arround the speakers (behind the screen). Or just make the wall and mount the speakers flush with wooden wall ?
When looking at the last drawing I made would you use it for the left or right side of the screen?
Can you Explain tweeter cap ?
Before I found cjd's HT-Mains I wanted to just buy In-Wall speakers and the ones I liked were klipsch KL 7800 and Noble Fidelity L-82,

http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7800-thx-in-wall-speaker

http://www.noble-fidelity.com/prod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?prodid=1005

Maybe a strange question but do you think the HT-mains are going to sound better ?

Thank you again, can't wait to start building. I will post photo's while building.
Twan

[cjd]

I have acoustic foam surrounding the speakers such as you illustrated. I think it helps lots of things, including reflections that start at the screen and end up back on the wall.

As for caps, many people feel that different capacitors sound differently, and most audibly on tweeters. While that's far less likely to be a critical component here, I figured I'd mention it. Don't fret it - you've got fine parts picked out.

I would use your drawing for the right side of the screen.

As for sound - that's always a tough question to answer. I've had a (non in-wall) Klipsch in my room, and while it wasn't bad, it was hard to listen to by comparison, especially as it got loud. And that's saying something since these speakers are tuned for <100dB listening while keeping dialog clear - which makes them get a little harsh as they approach 110dB. By then I can't stand it anyway so I don't really care. It's way too loud, even with hearing protection.

Based on other designs I've done and comparisons that have been done, I suspect these will be notably beyond what Klipsch offers at a comparable price. I am not familiar with Noble Fidelity.

C

[Twan]

Thanks great info,

I am sure your designs sounds good, Can't wait to build and hear them.

Can I just place the speaker cabinets on the wall and fill the space arround them with accoustic material, or is it better to make a complete false wall.

I have been reading about capacitors just now, and maybe I try the Jantzen Silver Z Cap.
Some people find them to make the sound less harsh.
Are the Capacitors that are in series with the speakers the most important to change for better ones ? ,
So the most important one to change into a Silver Cap is the 10 uF in series with the tweeter ?

P.S.
Is this the right way to connect the woofers ?

Sorry for all the Questions but I want to be sure that I don't make a stupid mistake.

[Twan]

This is the idea that I have.

[Paul W]

Consider building a completely flush wall or, at minimum, the area behind the screen. Should significantly reduce diffraction.

[Twan]

Consider building a completely flush wall or, at minimum, the area behind the screen. Should significantly reduce diffraction.

Hello Paul thanks for your comment,

That was my first thought too, But I have a brick wall and have not much room to spare, maybe 1 inch behind the speaker. Maybe I can mount the speakers on the wall with a rubber suspension.
Or is there an other benefit to build a wooden flushwall.
How do I construct this wooden flush wall, mount it at floor and ceiling only ?

Twan

[Paul W]

Several ways to do it. You could extend a single baffle to cover the area behind the screen while maintaining correct volume of the individual enclosures. Better yet, extend the baffle to fill the entire space. One way to fasten a stiff baffle to the brick wall would be wooden spacers and polyurethane construction adhesive...or use screw anchors.

Also consider a woven screen with a black grill cloth backing.

[Twan]

Could this be better, less reflections with raised Baffle and accoustic material.
The three speakers flush with baffle wall.

[Paul W]

Reflections come from a discontinuous surface...edges, steps, etc. Since sidewalls seem very close, consider treating 1st reflection points. Check to make sure mid/tweeter is at the correct height (design axis).

[Twan]

Yes I know the sidewalls are close , about 20" I have to see if I can treat them WAF factor.

So you think it is not a good idea to raise the speaker baffle. and fill the hole backwall up with accoustic material. (hope you understand what I mean)
The accoustic material will have the same hight as the speaker baffle.
I just tought that the surface of the speaker baffle would be to big in comparison with the rest of the wall. (a lot of the backwall surface is than not treated with accoustic material.)

Twan

[Paul W]

It's probably a good idea if using a perforated screen because those screens can reflect significant sound back toward the baffle and cause comb filtering. Assuming a smooth surface, it isn't a bad idea even with a woven screen, but I doubt it would do much unless it is part of solving a very lively room. If the material has a rough surface it could be slightly detrimental to front channel clarity. I'd focus a lot of effort on the sidewalls.

[Twan]

It's probably a good idea if using a perforated screen because those screens can reflect significant sound back toward the baffle and cause comb filtering. Assuming a smooth surface, it isn't a bad idea even with a woven screen, but I doubt it would do much unless it is part of solving a very lively room. If the material has a rough surface it could be slightly detrimental to front channel clarity. I'd focus a lot of effort on the sidewalls.

Thanks Paul,
I think I go for the raised baffle, The side wall reflection will be a problem. Have no idea how to solve it without it being a bad WAF factor.
Is it better for the reflection if I angle the L and R speakers a little.
Tonight I will use the mirror methode to find the first reflection point.

Twan

[cjd]

Woofer wiring is correct.

These were designed flush-mounted, so raising the baffle significantly will cause some loss in bass response - an edge will present some diffraction as well, though I am not sure the significance if it runs up against acoustic treatment. I use heavy foam treatment, wrapped in black wool felt (the baffles are also covered in black felt). If I had been able to source it easily I would have gone with 2" fiberglass, but I'm lazy and didn't want a whole carton of the stuff... Next time.

I believe your false wall can be very thin - in fact, one of the best non-bloated bass rooms I've ever heard was 4mm ply over a basic frame with a 6" void behind it filled with fiberglass. However, the surface itself is what counts in this specific instance, from what minimal testing I've done (foamcore vs plywood to "simulate" a TV for center channel measurements)

Screen reflections from are minimal - I've measured and with the Seymour AV screen it's almost dead flat minus the bobble noted in the measured response around 5kHz. Some of the brand-name screens will be notably worse.

C

[Twan]

Hi cjd,

Thank you for the reply, I will go for the flush-mounted version (no raised baffle). I wanted to go for 1"(25mm) foam the front wall but now thinking about 1.5"(40mm) (foam http://www.geluidsisolatie-boot.nl/easyfoam-pu-268.html) (will this be thick enough)
Think I cover everything foam and baffles with black felt.
As I understand the false wall can be thin, made of plywood and only 4 mm thick. Will this thin wall absorb the energy from the bass in order to get a non-bloated bass room ? (basstrap)

I am going to use the DIY Seymour AV screen, so that must be OK.

Thanks for the great Info.

Twan

[cjd]

As I understand the false wall can be thin, made of plywood and only 4 mm thick. Will this thin wall absorb the energy from the bass in order to get a non-bloated bass room ? (basstrap)

If you fill behind it with fiberglass or similar, you bet. The wall does none of the work in this case, it's all about that fiberglass.

[Twan]

If you fill behind it with fiberglass or similar, you bet. The wall does none of the work in this case, it's all about that fiberglass.

Thanks, would be great to get rid of some boomy bass.
Going to order the drivers this weekend, But I have to be patient because here in Europe the delivery time is two or three weeks.:cry:


Twan

[cjd]

Thanks, would be great to get rid of some boomy bass.
Going to order the drivers this weekend, But I have to be patient because here in Europe the delivery time is two or three weeks.:cry:


Twan

Hey, that's nothing compared to how long it takes me to wrap up a new design.

[Twan]

Hey, that's nothing compared to how long it takes me to wrap up a new design.

I believe that, it is so cool that we can use your designs,:T this way a lot of people can carry out their hobby and have great sound without getting bankrupt.
We even get great support


Twan

[Twan]

Hi,

Did some woodwork, was wondering if this is OK, Maybe I don't need the smaller braces, can you please tell me if this is OK.
The speakers are not delivered yet, I think that it might take an other two weeks.
Should I biwire or not. (tweeter and mid together and woofers alone or tweeter alone and mid and woofers together.
Thanking you in advance.

[cjd]

Bracing looks good.

Bi-wiring is an interesting diversion - I can come up with situations it would be beneficial, such as a desire to run a tube amp for mid/high and solid state for bass. I doubt it's of any value in a HT - that's a LOT of amps, and if you run a sub covering even up to 60Hz you relieve tons of the usual strain an amp deals with. Bi-wiring quality solid state amps may only help if you're clipping the amp or otherwise exceeding the capacity of a power supply, and keeping the mid/tweet separate may keep such problems from manifesting audibly in this range.

You can always run wires to the terminal separately, and combine there for now - this would let you bi-amp in the future should it still tickle your fancy.

C

[Twan]

Thanks for the advice CJD,

Now I can finish the woodwork.
I understand now why bi-wiring isn't allways beneficial, I just bought a new AVR, Pioneer SC LX 76 for a very good price, with more power than my old onkyo NR709 (pioneer SC LX 76, 9 x 180 Watt)
This amp sounds so much better, can't wait to connect it to the new IN-Wall speakers.
As you recommended I am going run the wires separately and combine them at the terminal.

Twan

[Twan]

Hi,

Cjd, earlier you mentioned that you covered the speaker baffels in black wool felt, do you know the thickness you used.
Does it have to be wool, or is it ok to use acryl felt.

Thanks

Twan

[cjd]

Hi,

Cjd, earlier you mentioned that you covered the speaker baffels in black wool felt, do you know the thickness you used.
Does it have to be wool, or is it ok to use acryl felt.

Thanks

Twan

It's the super thin craft wool felt I got at a local fabric store. It probably makes no difference at all, but wool IS the felt to use for most anything acoustically important. This is likely too thin...

[Carl V]

I have used the thicker 1/2" to 1" wool felt from McMaster (sp)
I have experimented with the Star pattern cutouts as well.
I usually cut a diamond pattern. Not a simple circle. you can
use simple rectangular blocks a'la M&K with tjeir 3 tweeter arrangement
or the way RAAL ribbon tweeters have.

( I also prefer wool felt inside on the back side of the baffle & near the driver
on the side walls.... ymmv)

[cjd]

I have used the thicker 1/2" to 1" wool felt from McMaster (sp)
I have experimented with the Star pattern cutouts as well.
I usually cut a diamond pattern. Not a simple circle. you can
use simple rectangular blocks a'la M&K with tjeir 3 tweeter arrangement
or the way RAAL ribbon tweeters have.

( I also prefer wool felt inside on the back side of the baffle & near the driver
on the side walls.... ymmv)

If you're after acoustic treatments, you bet.

This is simply getting non-reflective black surface on the boxes since they'll have a rather bright light shining in their general direction rather a lot.

[Twan]

If you're after acoustic treatments, you bet.

This is simply getting non-reflective black surface on the boxes since they'll have a rather bright light shining in their general direction rather a lot.

Thanks for the info,
I thought that it had to do something with the sound reflecting back from the screen.
But as I understand it is only to prevent the light reflecting on the baffle surface.

Twan

[cjd]

Thanks for the info,
I thought that it had to do something with the sound reflecting back from the screen.
But as I understand it is only to prevent the light reflecting on the baffle surface.

Twan

You DO have to worry some about sound bouncing between the screen and the speakers - I have a different black wool-felt-wrapped acoustic treatment (it's ~5cm thick) for this purpose since it is not a dark treatment itself.

C

[Paul W]

Sorry I don't recall which F-value, but some wool felt is even better than other grades for sound treatment. (Wool is much better than synthetic felt.)

[Twan]

Hi, Thanks for all the info,

I have started to build the wall I will post some photo's later.
The crossover parts got deliverd but still no drivers, I have to be patient.
I have the following question about the resistors in the x-over.

I am planning to use for the mid x-over a 20 W 10 Ohm resistor, is this enough i am having difficulties calculating the correct value.
For the tweeter I got a 10 Watt 12 Ohm resistor, Is this OK.

Twan

[Twan]

Some Foto's


photo 1: Glued Bitumen and wood in de inside of the speaker cabinet. (made them super heavy)
photo 2: Started on the wall, photo 3: The wood is isolated from the house walls en floor.
photo 4: Placed the speaker cabinets in the wall. (no drivers yet)
photo 5: Insolation behind the wood.

[Twan]

Finished the three X-overs for the RS150 Mid Speaker.

[cjd]

Resistors are fine.

Progress is looking good!