Alternative to statement monitors with close wall placement.

[voxxonline]

I have to confess, I am more into the music, but looks like this forum has quite few followers of Statement monitors- which I do admire.
I have few posts and as sequence interfered into this thread.
Result: no way I can use Statement monitors due to the room limitations- too close to the wall.
Would you be so kind and help me to figure out which speakers would be good for cramped places like mine.
Room scheme attached.

[AdelaaR]

You didn't give the dimensions of the room itself.
What does "all area is l shaped" mean?

[AdelaaR]

Your side reflections aren't symmetrical regardless of speaker choice.
Is it an option to move the TV in front of the window and place the sofa in the middle?
That would solve a lot.

[BeerParty]

Have you gone through the options in the A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs thread? K has done an excellent job of summarizing the different designs available.

The Statements were a design collaboration between Curt, Jim, and Wayne and are documented on Curt's web site. If you are partial to that design, Curt has all of his other designs listed there as well.

[voxxonline]

Will post tomorrow size of the room- need to check. But it is not too big.
Moving sofa is not possible.
L shaped means the place with the door into the room smaller- kitchen is a bit narrow there.
I will check a guide, thank you.
Yes- Curt's designs quite attractive.

[mattsk8]

Not sure how far you'd like to go, but you might be able to start a bit cheaper and build the Tritrix MTMs. I have the Tritrix MTM TLs and they're not terribly finicky for placement IMO, they seem to have great imaging. Another option is the Stance, the designer of the Stance said just fill the port if they'll be up against a wall. I also had some recommendations for Zaph's 5.3c. The 5.3c was designed as a center, but it works well in awkward areas. I also have an acoustically terrible area, so I know what you're up against.

Plan on running a sub w/ any of those designs.

[voxxonline]

DA Khanspire can be close to wall

[voxxonline]

To be honest I have some sort of reference - it is PMC twenty.21 TL small speaker with very good sound.
I would love to achieve something like that.
Plus- I am renting, and some future proof compromise is still available.

[voxxonline]

Plus it is difficult to understand how significant sound degradation would be...

[dar47]

Plus it is difficult to understand how significant sound degradation would be...

That room looks small, MTM's with a small sub should do especially if music is the focus. You could do the Nat P's in wall / on wall or the Modula MTM's. They have far wall option too so if you move you could change the crossovers for the different room. They are great for music and have different tweet options and a centre to match. Great versatility with these designs and Jon's system designs are the best :T

[voxxonline]

Room is 20 sq meters

[AdelaaR]

That's plenty big if you play it right.
I've only got about 15.
If I were you I'd consider using the room in the other direction.
I personally couldn't live with fine speakers being asymmetrically placed in the room.

[mattsk8]

Plus it is difficult to understand how significant sound degradation would be...

Are you referring to degredation related to misplacement of speakers? If so, it depends completely on the design; it can be a huge deal or not so much. Ever heard anyone say, "I don't get it, they sounded great at the store". I just finished building the ER18s. Those sounded amazing in my shop, but once I put them in their intended area that changed. The intended area is tile floors and until I finish building the bar they have to go in entirely the wrong spot for being on axis. Long story short, if I played them for someone where they are now they'd think they were awful speakers; which they aren't, they're fantastic, they're just in the wrong spot.

When I first got into this a couple years ago I thought a lot of the guys were just being anal and that it didn't really matter, but the further I go the more I understand how much placement truly does matter (less w/ some designs, more w/ others). Speakers and sound is incredibly finicky, and it's the subtle differences that separate garbage from something that sounds incredible. While you can't have you're cake and eat it too (there's going to have to be a sacrifice somewhere when you don't have the option to remodel your house around your stereo), there are definitely some viable options out there. Just make sure you listen to the advice from the guys here.

Have you built a speaker before?

[voxxonline]

I will definitely listen to all you say.
no, I do not have speaker making experience, but I am well organized, plus I have help from amazing maintenance department at work. Tools and skills covered.

[voxxonline]

I will take as much time as it needs to find best solution .

[voxxonline]

Actually, er18 were on my list some time ago alongside with troels eekels mini and saph sr 71.

[fbov]

One special consideration is that you're buying in Europe, so driver availability and price are very different from what we see in the US. It may be worthwhile to look at the master list of DIY designs to see who's building with drivers you can reasonably afford.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?211558-Links-to-existing-DIY-speaker-designs

I'll note that the OP for that thread built a pair of SR71's and loved them so much he worked with Zaph to create a CC design.

Finally, the great advantage to DIY is the ability to choose/modify/create designs for specific applications. But knowing your application is the first step, not picking a design...

Have fun,
Frank

[voxxonline]

choice is more or less ok. Possible to find things , pricing is another question. What do you think about zaph vaweguide tmm, it seems to be less critical for placement ?

[voxxonline]

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/...7/Cryolite.htm ?

[dar47]

choice is more or less ok. Possible to find things , pricing is another question. What do you think about zaph vaweguide tmm, it seems to be less critical for placement ?

The MCM waveguides may be hard to source, I think they are discontinued but if you can find a similar 6.5" waveguide it may be possible. You could do what I did and CNC your baffle to make the wave guide. I have a machine file for it.
John (Zaph) does great work and I have done his L18's, SR71's in his box and just finished SR71's in a larger front ported box that are my new surrounds.

If you can solve the waveguide issue I would do Jon's Modula MK2 2.5's. I don't think he has built that version but there is a published crossover. My MK2 monitors are my favorite speaker to date. They are great in my large vaulted great room and are fantastic for music in my treated home theater area. I would venture to the 2.5 would have more head room for movies and be just as resolving for music. :T

[dar47]

Sorry I don't mean to be pushy and yes I am some what of a fan of Jon's work.

These guys are right when they say you have to consider your room first and there are many great DIY designs out there almost to many and it can be hard to choose.

Of the 10+ different DIY designs I have done and the ones others have have built that I have heard, the Modula MK2 are the ones that have delivered way more then advertised for the money especially for music. In a difficult room they have great walk around sound even placed close to a wall. In a good room sitting between them they sound like a vary good 3way. One example I have is after listening to a new well recorded CD of Ninna Simone maybe 20 times upstairs I listen to it down stairs and notice some vary faint coughing on one of the tracks I never noticed upstairs. I could have sworn it was a studio recording but discovered it was a lounge recording, great sound stage and imaging. First thing that popped into my head was Jon's write up when he says they can resolve the differences between a $1000 & $5000 DAC. No SH!!! They always get the biggest reaction from the people who have heard my builds.

You can't go wrong with any of the design here, I just wish that some others would take these builds on because they are well worth the effort even with the more challenging process. If you are just starting out and want to get your feet wet there are a lot of good MTM's or 2.5's to try. If you want to try a waveguide I would go for the Modula MK2 2.5's.

Okay now I will shut up.

[voxxonline]

Good morning.
I will look into Zaph's Modula. I hope it is documented well, because for me as a first timer it is prerequisite to obtain clear understanding of project before commencing...
Thank you for suggestion.

[voxxonline]

Confused with the name of modula mk2 2.5... What is this speaker ?

[voxxonline]

Found waveguide in australia http://www.altronics.com.au/index.as...=item&id=C6127

[voxxonline]

Ooops. It is different designer http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html
Misunderstood.
so from all of designs modula 2.5 is the best. &ow good will it match cyrus amplifier, which is not doing well with too bright speakers ?

[dar47]

Check this out in the completed designs:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35524

The PDF in the thread documents the build and it has a crossover for a 2.5 version as well.

Sorry if I confused you, Jon Marsh is the designer of the Modula series he is Mod on this forum.

The Modula MT MK2's & 2.5's use the Seas ER18RNX and the Peerless HDS D2608-9130 tweet that is wave guided. The Tweet's are still made by ScanSpeak and are vary smooth with extended highs. There is no harshness in this design.

Remember this is my slant others may suggest other builds, there is no perfect option.

[voxxonline]

Thx. I think link to pdf is broken.

[dar47]

Thx. I think link to pdf is broken.

I think he has it linked to his new web site and it's temporally down. You could send him a pm.

[voxxonline]

As long as this design is forgiving to placement its worth trying then

[voxxonline]

It seems europe audio is selling waveguide.

http://www.europe-audio.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=5216

[voxxonline]

What is better
2 way with more expensive drivers
or 3 way with less expensive drivers
with same totals for parts ?

[cjd]

What is better
2 way with more expensive drivers
or 3 way with less expensive drivers
with same totals for parts ?

That depends a lot on the person that did the crossover.

It also depends on the price. At $200, almost surely the 2-way. At $2000, the potential for the 3-way is much higher relative to a 2-way.

C

[voxxonline]

I've got bom for modula mt mk2
Everything looks fine but...

3.3 mh awg jantzen 12 gauge coil cost more than 2 drivers together... ???

[cjd]

Are you looking at the foil inductors? I don't think most people spring for that! If you're going for an "ultimate" build though, you'll probably do that without looking back.

I've definitely seen designs using the Jantzen 3.3mH C-coil toroidal inductors here, which are ~$100 less than the foil air-core. Personally, I'm not sure I'd opt for the toroidal over a classic iron core (Say, Jantzen P-core or Erse iron core) - the key ingredient here is low impedance. I can't remember where I read something or other that makes me less keen on the c-coils but...

Anyhow, there are certainly people that believe you should put an arbitrary price cap on crossover cost and anything over is a waste. On the other hand, I've never heard a design that I could live with that took this approach - I *have* heard some excellent crossovers that were cheaper than mine (or Jon's) using similar drivers so there is more than one way to skin a cat. Or design a crossover.

C

[voxxonline]

The problem is crossover and choice of coil, caps etc are really like dark forest to me.
I am not able to find compromise between them. Currently I refer to modula's high quality x over part. Which is expensive though- price is more for tm modula than mtm natP.
I do like more modula mt mk2 more than natP, but it seems to be difficult to excuse such expensive crossover (knowing how some people say it is not worth doing).
Confused and lost

[dar47]

The problem is crossover and choice of coil, caps etc are really like dark forest to me.
I am not able to find compromise between them. Currently I refer to modula's high quality x over part. Which is expensive though- price is more for tm modula than mtm natP.
I do like more modula mt mk2 more than natP, but it seems to be difficult to excuse such expensive crossover (knowing how some people say it is not worth doing).
Confused and lost

Jon carefully and thoughtfully explained his chooses especially the C-Core. I followed his recommendation to the ESA on the tweeter, the MR was to rich for my blood. It could be interesting to build a cheeped out version to compare but I think the goodness is in the pudding in this case. Besides if your going to the extra trouble to build the waveguided 2.5 whats a few more. I wouldn't spend on foils though and Jon didn't spec them.

here mine.

[voxxonline]

I really like tm version, as yours. And will probably do this, and order parts from parts express.

[voxxonline]

The only question- will modula mt mk2 outperform natP mtm ?

[dar47]

The only question- will modula mt mk2 outperform natP mtm ?

NatP in monitor form is tuned to 32hrz F6-38, tower form 28 F6-29 and will have 3db more head room, so if movies at 105db is the goal then the NatP.

I haven't heard the NatP but I have built the Modula MTM (more expensive xover)for a friend and I prefer mk2 for music. The mk2 is tuned to 40 hrz and if you add a sub and cross at 40hrz to 60hrz to relieve bass duty your almost there for movies.

I added this little number,

Image not available

[voxxonline]

I was double checking capacitors, coils, everything.
Probably I am closer to true state of affairs now
So badly miscalculated- bom for modula mk2 is ok.
I ll keep looking and educating myself with all these (especially) coils and values (awg to mm) and will make final list of items, for (if possible) this forum to check before I buy.
I m on right course finally.

[voxxonline]

I was reading more into different designs and drivers. Don't want to start new thread, but have some questions.
It looks dayton rs150 and 180 are very good drivers for very reasonable price.
But how do they compare to let's say w12cy003 or w15cy001- will seas excel be significantly better even seeing price difference ?
And yes- waveguides are hard to source...