help with design for HUGE capable front mains and center channel

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  • probillygun
    Member
    • Jun 2007
    • 58

    help with design for HUGE capable front mains and center channel

    I am currently wanting to get a design for a very large set of 3 way front mains and a center channel to go with them for a 2 channel/theater room.

    I'd like them to have excellent SQ but also be also to play at concert levels as I'll be using 1 Carver TFM-55x bridged on each mono for 1000 watts RMS on each tower.

    Right now I'm thinking of a front baffle layout similar to something similar to the Eagleston IVYs just not all the iso drivers behind the 12's and 6"

    http://www.egglestonworks.com/ivy.htm

    Click image for larger version

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    But I don't want the iso configuration of the Eagglstons, just showing you them to give you an idea of the driver layout.

    so I'm thinking something like this:

    W - Dayton RSS315HF-8

    W - Dayton RSS315HF-8

    W - Dayton RSS315HF-8

    M - Morel MW-164-8 6" Woofer

    M - Morel MW-164-8 6" Woofer

    T - Morel ET 338-104 1-1/8" Soft Dome Tweeter Matched Pair

    M - Morel MW-164-8 6" Woofer

    M - Morel MW-164-8 6" Woofer

    not sure about the center channel as I'd like it to be horizontal but still be good timbre match for the mains.

    Thoughts? Suggestions for the cross over design? and center channel?

    I'd like to get somebody to design me a 3 way passive X -over for them, I can build the X-overs, and I'll find a cabinet builder near central PA to build them.
    Last edited by theSven; 28 July 2023, 08:19 Friday. Reason: Update image location
  • probillygun
    Member
    • Jun 2007
    • 58

    #2
    or maybe I should have the baffles built first then have someone design the Xover while the drivers are mounted in that baffle?

    Ideas? opinions?

    Comment

    • Dave Bullet
      Senior Member
      • Jul 2007
      • 474

      #3
      What size room will you be putting these in? Concert levels may not need speakers this big depending on your room. The Ivys are massive.

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15214

        #4
        What is your reasoning behind the Morel drivers? They're not exactly state of the art with regards to motor design and distortion-

        What you're looking at here is really a two way design with built in subs- that is not necessarily a good path to the best music SQ- in a large speaker configuration like this with a moderate budget, I'd suggest you take a look at something like the Statements, augmented with a sub - also, the Dayton RS designs for HT and Music posted in the Missions accomplished would give this driver complement a very good run for the money- have you browed through Ryan's summary thread of designs? Might save you some time and the money for someone to design something custom.
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        Comment

        • weverb
          Junior Member
          • Dec 2009
          • 17

          #5
          What about Jed's 4T and 4CC set-up?


          Comment

          • Undefinition
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2006
            • 577

            #6
            Originally posted by Dave Bullet
            What size room will you be putting these in? Concert levels may not need speakers this big depending on your room. The Ivys are massive.
            Not just that, but multiple woofers means more sensitivity, which means you will get more SPL per watt than single woofers. 1000 wpc is going to be overkill, with the exception of subs.
            Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
            Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

            Comment

            • Jim Holtz
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Mar 2005
              • 3223

              #7
              I'll toss in my $.02 worth....

              I think many, if not most, of the designs posted here would meet your need for sound quality, none will hit concert levels of 120+ db. The designs are focused on excellent sound quality at normal or reasonable SPL.

              I took a quick look at the link you sent and I'll call BS on their claims of endless and unlimited dynamics. The key spec is 87 db. The drivers will run out of xmax long before they hit 120+ db. Long before...

              If you want extremely high SPL and sound quality, you need line arrays. They can hit the SPL you're talking about and sound good until your ears bleed. However, they require ribbons which translates to almost $2000 investment in the ribbons alone for a competent line array. Read Dr. Jim Griffins white paper for an excellent understanding of what it takes to design a line array for home use.


              Jim

              Comment

              • ---k---
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Nov 2005
                • 5202

                #8
                I'm glad you realize that to get a world class design, you need to get the drivers tested on a baffle and a crossover designed from there. But, there is a lot that goes into picking the drivers, layout, etc. before you can build the boxes.

                I think you're on the wrong path.

                What speakers do you currently have? We need to know where you're coming from before we can put you on the right path.
                - Ryan

                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                Comment

                • Undefinition
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2006
                  • 577

                  #9
                  I see nothing wrong with wanting to do a DIY design that emulates the look of a drool-inducing commercial speaker. However, there's a LOT more to speaker design than just buying the woofers and building a box (and it has nothing to do with the "skin effect" of wires :rofl: )

                  The Most Frequently Asked Question in DIY Audio
                  Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                  Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                  Comment

                  • probillygun
                    Member
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 58

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Dave Bullet
                    What size room will you be putting these in? Concert levels may not need speakers this big depending on your room. The Ivys are massive.
                    its a "L" shaped Room with the front section screen being about 19' across then about 7' back it narrows to 13', about 28' long and 9' ceiling, the back of the room is open to my game room are where I also want music.

                    I prefer planning and designing for more than I need that way I never have to push the speakers hard or clip amps. I dont really believe this is overkill for my application. Been doing this too long and had to many systems that were pushed past the limits, clipping amps, bottoming subs. tired of it.

                    I had a full Klipsch theater system using KLF-30s for mains which are around 102 DB effecient, so using my Adcom 200 watts per channel I was easily able to attain concert level volume but was always lacking true low end.
                    However for theater I was completely satisfied with it. 2 channel was however dissapointing to say the least and was never into the way any my CDs sounded on the Klipschs. just too agressive.

                    So, I'm trying to have it all if possible this time. I'm not a speaker designer which is why I'm on this forum to get help and opinions. I have and do know how to assemble high end crossovers and have been in car audio/home audio for over 25 years.

                    Thoughts?

                    Comment

                    • probillygun
                      Member
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 58

                      #11
                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                      What is your reasoning behind the Morel drivers? They're not exactly state of the art with regards to motor design and distortion-

                      What you're looking at here is really a two way design with built in subs- that is not necessarily a good path to the best music SQ- in a large speaker configuration like this with a moderate budget, I'd suggest you take a look at something like the Statements, augmented with a sub - also, the Dayton RS designs for HT and Music posted in the Missions accomplished would give this driver complement a very good run for the money- have you browed through Ryan's summary thread of designs? Might save you some time and the money for someone to design something custom.
                      I selected Morel because of the sensitivity mating up well, excellent power handling and because over the years I never listed to a morel speaker I didnt like.

                      There may be better choices out there for me, but it is my starting point. other ideas and suggestions for changes to help me meet my goal are very welcome.

                      I've listened to several 3 way designs I really liked over the years that didnt have built in powered subs. Also being I already have 2 Big carvers sitting here. I'd love to use them bridged mono on 2 big 8 ohm towers that have enough surface area and power handling to help me get at least 115DB.

                      I also believe it can be done to be loud and sound really good. I certainly will not sit around for hours at 115DB + but If I wanna listen to a song or 2 at that level I want the capability.


                      Send me a link to the Ryans summary of designs. I used Dayton stuff in the past and always liked it as well, and much cheaper than Morel

                      Comment

                      • probillygun
                        Member
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 58

                        #12
                        I'm glad you brought up those speakers!

                        Of everything I seen in the past week of surfng the web for something that would do what I want. They are my current top pick!

                        However, I'm concerned about them handling 1000 watts RMS and having good strong output at 25HZ, I'm sure those 7" roll off quite a bit down that low and If I EQd the bottom end up a bit I'd bet they bottom out real quick with the power I'm running.

                        That's why I wanted to use 2 Dayton 12"s for low end

                        I think that center channel would do exactly what I wanted for movies and music just as it is! 8)

                        Maybe I could get Jed to add 2 dayton 12"s to the towers and move 2 of the 7"s above the top mid, and redisign a crossover. Wow I can see that being a truly awesome ass kickin and still sweet sounding setup. Although now it would become a 4 way and I know passive Xovers get tricky for 4 ways and I'm really not into the idea of using powerd subs in them

                        Comment

                        • probillygun
                          Member
                          • Jun 2007
                          • 58

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Undefinition
                          I see nothing wrong with wanting to do a DIY design that emulates the look of a drool-inducing commercial speaker. However, there's a LOT more to speaker design than just buying the woofers and building a box (and it has nothing to do with the "skin effect" of wires :rofl: )

                          The Most Frequently Asked Question in DIY Audio
                          certainly, and I know that. that's why I started the thread here

                          Comment

                          • probillygun
                            Member
                            • Jun 2007
                            • 58

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                            I'll toss in my $.02 worth....

                            I think many, if not most, of the designs posted here would meet your need for sound quality, none will hit concert levels of 120+ db. The designs are focused on excellent sound quality at normal or reasonable SPL.

                            I took a quick look at the link you sent and I'll call BS on their claims of endless and unlimited dynamics. The key spec is 87 db. The drivers will run out of xmax long before they hit 120+ db. Long before...

                            If you want extremely high SPL and sound quality, you need line arrays. They can hit the SPL you're talking about and sound good until your ears bleed. However, they require ribbons which translates to almost $2000 investment in the ribbons alone for a competent line array. Read Dr. Jim Griffins white paper for an excellent understanding of what it takes to design a line array for home use.


                            Jim
                            Yes, I've listened to line arrays and like them. But I never seen a line array with a proper center channel match where the center speaker was Horizontal and I have a laminate screen for my theater. (Not acousticaly transparent)

                            So I'm thinking those are out for me...unless you've seen something I havent yet???

                            Comment

                            • probillygun
                              Member
                              • Jun 2007
                              • 58

                              #15
                              Hey Guys, been doing more thinking and checking out links on here....

                              to give you another example of what I'm looking for take a look at these;

                              High-end audio accessories company specializing in high-performance loudspeakers, subwoofers and system electronics for home theater and audiophiles.


                              I belive I'm not on the wrong track. Big capable and great sounding 3 way or even 4 way towers with all passive X-overs can and are done. A close friend of mine heard the Legacy Focus 20/20s and said they are just incredible.

                              I think I might need a cross between 2 speakers on this forum... The Statements and the Magna Cum Laude.

                              Judging by the feedback I've got so far on this, I'm kinda surprised that I might be the only one that would want something like this.


                              thoughts? other ideas?

                              Comment

                              • robseyes
                                Junior Member
                                • Mar 2006
                                • 6

                                #16
                                What about CJD's Rs 3-ways augmented with a quad set of sealed 15's or a pair of 18's? You could even do that with the Statements if you wanted.....build the woofer section sealed, so they will mate well with the subs. Diycable's Tempests or Maelstroms would fit the bill nicely. Pro-amps are reasonable & would give you more headroom than you will want. 8O

                                Comment

                                • probillygun
                                  Member
                                  • Jun 2007
                                  • 58

                                  #17
                                  What are CJD's 3 ways? post link?

                                  I think I'll do something like that subwoofer wise for theater down the road when my budget allows, but would still prefer my 2 channel mains be capabale on thier own to handle fullrange at 115db or more. But I'm not ruling it out if I cant get a Big bad set of DIY 3 way or 4 way mains to fit my application

                                  Comment

                                  • Jonasz
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 852

                                    #18
                                    Here you go: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=537
                                    Last edited by theSven; 28 July 2023, 09:15 Friday. Reason: Update htguide url

                                    Comment

                                    • Jim Holtz
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 3223

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by probillygun
                                      I belive I'm not on the wrong track. Big capable and great sounding 3 way or even 4 way towers with all passive X-overs can and are done. A close friend of mine heard the Legacy Focus 20/20s and said they are just incredible.

                                      I think I might need a cross between 2 speakers on this forum... The Statements and the Magna Cum Laude.

                                      Judging by the feedback I've got so far on this, I'm kinda surprised that I might be the only one that would want something like this.


                                      thoughts? other ideas?
                                      The Statements will not meet your goals of 115+ db except for an occasional peak at the most. The screen that is not acoustically transparent is also a major problem for the Statements.

                                      You're not the 1st that has expressed an interest in super high SPL but most soon understand that high fidelity home audio speakers simply aren't designed for the volume levels you're talking about and move on. The drivers you've selected in your original post won't come close to accomplishing your goals. Not nearly sensitive enough and not nearly enough xmax. The laws of physics get in the way.

                                      I owned Selah Audio line arrays for several years and yes it is easy to integrate a center channel. They are the only home audio design I know of that has the SPL capability you're looking for and offer high quality sound.

                                      FWIW, I had Legacy speakers before I became involved in DIY. Once I exoerienced speakers that truly do sound good, I would not call Legacy speakers incredible. They are often described as speakers with "boom and sizzle" which is an accurate description.

                                      My $.02 worth...

                                      Jim

                                      Comment

                                      • numberoneoppa
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2009
                                        • 535

                                        #20
                                        What about's Zaph's new SB Acoustics design?

                                        Free support for loudspeaker projects, sourcing OEM speaker building supplies, and passive crossover design. We sell raw speaker drivers (tweeters, woofers, subwoofer, midrange drivers, full range drivers), speaker kits, amplifiers, capacitors, resistors, and inductors.
                                        -Josh

                                        That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

                                        Comment

                                        • Undefinition
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2006
                                          • 577

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                          The Statements will not meet your goals of 115+ db except for an occasional peak at the most.

                                          You're not the 1st that has expressed an interest in super high SPL but most soon understand that high fidelity home audio speakers simply aren't designed for the volume levels you're talking about and move on. The drivers you've selected in your original post won't come close to accomplishing your goals. Not nearly sensitive enough and not nearly enough xmax. The laws of physics get in the way.
                                          Yep. If you are really wanting 115+ dB, no traditional HT speakers can cruise at that level (though some may hit the occasional peak). You will need pro audio drivers, or a line array to reach that SPL.
                                          Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                          Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                                          Comment

                                          • ---k---
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2005
                                            • 5202

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by robseyes
                                            What about CJD's Rs 3-ways augmented with a quad set of sealed 15's or a pair of 18's? You could even do that with the Statements if you wanted.....build the woofer section sealed, so they will mate well with the subs. Diycable's Tempests or Maelstroms would fit the bill nicely. Pro-amps are reasonable & would give you more headroom than you will want. 8O
                                            This thread is starting to sound very familiar.

                                            Maybe he should just move on up to Kingpin's upgrade to CJD's 3-ways.

                                            Image not available

                                            Hi folks. First off would like to say that I have been lurking around here quite a while. I am really impressed at how you all work together on projects so much, and it is quite refreshing to see a community with a lot more postitve than negative attitude. A little about me. I have always been into audio and video. Just could


                                            You really should spend some time reading the sticky threads and the build threads for the different speakers. They may not be the speakers you want to build, but there is a wealth of knowledge contained in many of these threads. It will really help you better define your goals and expectations.

                                            Those Legacy are interesting. I doubt they will meet the goals that you have outlined. Maybe that is the problem, the commercial guys are exaggerating their abilities and we are telling the truth - the two aren't directly comparable. BTW in that Legacy, anyone know what the crossover frequency is between the tweeter and 6.5" mid and if there are issues with the c-c spacing?
                                            Last edited by theSven; 28 July 2023, 08:33 Friday. Reason: Remove broken image link and update htguide url
                                            - Ryan

                                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                            Comment

                                            • ---k---
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2005
                                              • 5202

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Undefinition
                                              Yep. If you are really wanting 115+ dB, no traditional HT speakers can cruise at that level (though some may hit the occasional peak). You will need pro audio drivers, or a line array to reach that SPL.
                                              I'm sorry if I'm being a little rude and think your nuts for wanting that much spl capability. Just seen it too many times from people who don't have the slightest clue. Most just want it because they heard that is what was needed from people at that other forum.


                                              Paul (undefinition),
                                              Maybe I'm crazy. But you've played in a band, done recording mixing, been to numerous concerts, designed speakers and such, you're probably one of the best to ask. After hearing what my speakers are capable of, spl wise only, do you think there is a reason that any sane person would need more spl capability. Maybe if the room is 2x - 3x as large. That is the only way i see it.
                                              - Ryan

                                              CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                              Comment

                                              • joeybutts
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Sep 2009
                                                • 476

                                                #24
                                                My Dayton 8's will play crazy loud (I can't give an objective number ad distortion def starts to set in) and that is off a piece of junk Pio receiver. I love everything loud (my stereo, my movies, my car, etc) and I could only step up a notch maybe from the Dayton 8's. I'm looking to build ----k----'s Khanspires soon to step up the fidelity (quite a bit I would imagine), maybe gain a dB or two.

                                                I can only think of one person running pro gear for a main stage, and that is MKTheater..... He has a ridiculous setup in his dedicated HT. You can find him over on AVSforum.....it sounds like that is the route you want to go. I forget what he has for his mainstage as of now (Some sort of JBL pro something or others) and he used to have 8 eD 18" sono's for LFE, which he just traded in for two Danley DTS-10's.....RIDICULOUS.

                                                Comment

                                                • cjd
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                  • 5568

                                                  #25
                                                  120dB out of most commercial "home audio" tweeters is going to be transient capability only, NOT sustainable without VC heat issues I think.

                                                  Also, you talk of these Carver amps, but before bridging be very very aware of what kind of current delivery they can handle - my big 3-ways + the carver amps bridged may = toasted amp. I think I have seen a transient peak at 114dB (speaker pair with me just over 2M back) and sustained hovering ~108-110dB.

                                                  I still question why you want 120dB playback, but I do think you would be better served looking at "pro" driver based designs and looking at 40Hz bottom end (ported, and IMHO thus not really recommended for HT with pro gear, but... that's me) on 3-way mains, and adding subs below that.
                                                  diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Undefinition
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                    • 577

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by ---k---
                                                    Paul (undefinition),
                                                    Maybe I'm crazy. But you've played in a band, done recording mixing, been to numerous concerts, designed speakers and such, you're probably one of the best to ask. After hearing what my speakers are capable of, spl wise only, do you think there is a reason that any sane person would need more spl capability. Maybe if the room is 2x - 3x as large. That is the only way i see it.
                                                    I just did some quick modeling, and the Khanspires should safely do 110 dB before reaching xmax (the RS225 are going to be the limiting factor here). That only takes 80 watts, by the way.

                                                    Out of curiosity, I have taken out my SPL meter while I played drums. In a small room, the SPL level sits between 105-115 dB. And it's REALLY loud. I can't stand drums in a small room, and I won't play them for more than 3 minutes or so without putting in earplugs or wearing full-sized headphones. I don't care who's playing drums; it could be Vinnie Colaiuta or Gene Hoglan or Buddy Rich back from the grave, forget it, it's too loud to even make out what's going on. Then again, put that same drumset into hall of 50 or more seats, and it sounds great. My theory is that things that loud need more space to actually sound good. At close range, 115 dB is all mush to your ear drums, and will cause hearing damage.

                                                    I know, you don't want to hear the super-high SPL, you want to feel it. Just know that you're past the limits of what our senses were meant to perceive, and your eardrums will distort the sound, which kind of negates the need for high-fidelity sound to begin with.
                                                    Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                                    Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Paul W
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Oct 2004
                                                      • 549

                                                      #27
                                                      I believe the most practical way to achieve your objective is quality pro gear...including a compression driver and horn/waveguide on the top end.

                                                      One possibility would be good subs or bass-bins coupled with something like Brandon's "No Quarter" for midbass and HF.
                                                      Paul

                                                      Comment

                                                      • cjd
                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                        • 5568

                                                        #28
                                                        You can't pretend you didn't feel that T-Rex... I saw you look around a little confused. and I'd bet we were only hitting peaks in the ~105dB range on the sharpest bits there.. and by that time it wasn't about feeling it, and it was much MUCH louder than the initial footsteps by then too. So SPL is NOT the game to play IMO.
                                                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Kidsrapain
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • Dec 2009
                                                          • 27

                                                          #29
                                                          SB12.3 hits 115 db I think and imho any louder you start to lose definition not because of the speakers but because your ears start to go numb, I love it loud but we have limits, pro gear will bring you to your knees!I watch movies around 90 to 100 db and somebody always ask me to turn it down even though it's clear as a bell.I have a buddy that uses 4 jbl studio monitors in his HT and they can make you get up and leave and they sound very good at low volumes too so I think a speaker with 10,12,15 inch woofers is a good start.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Jonasz
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                            • 852

                                                            #30
                                                            Earl Geddes Summa kit should be the kit for you. It should sound better than most professional stuff and still have a nominal max SPL of 129dB.

                                                            http://www.ai-audio.com/products_esp15.html



                                                            Image not available
                                                            Last edited by theSven; 28 July 2023, 09:11 Friday. Reason: Remove broken image link

                                                            Comment

                                                            • weverb
                                                              Junior Member
                                                              • Dec 2009
                                                              • 17

                                                              #31
                                                              How about something like this:



                                                              Or:



                                                              Comment

                                                              • probillygun
                                                                Member
                                                                • Jun 2007
                                                                • 58

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                                                The Statements will not meet your goals of 115+ db except for an occasional peak at the most. The screen that is not acoustically transparent is also a major problem for the Statements.

                                                                You're not the 1st that has expressed an interest in super high SPL but most soon understand that high fidelity home audio speakers simply aren't designed for the volume levels you're talking about and move on. The drivers you've selected in your original post won't come close to accomplishing your goals. Not nearly sensitive enough and not nearly enough xmax. The laws of physics get in the way.

                                                                I owned Selah Audio line arrays for several years and yes it is easy to integrate a center channel. They are the only home audio design I know of that has the SPL capability you're looking for and offer high quality sound.

                                                                FWIW, I had Legacy speakers before I became involved in DIY. Once I exoerienced speakers that truly do sound good, I would not call Legacy speakers incredible. They are often described as speakers with "boom and sizzle" which is an accurate description.

                                                                My $.02 worth...

                                                                Jim
                                                                ok Jim, thanks for the input.

                                                                Could you explain why the statements would not be good with my laminate screen? I'm getting concerned, because if that's the case, what speakers would be good for my laminate screen?!

                                                                For theater its proabably no big deal, but for 2 channel listening, I could always put up a curtain and pull it across the laminate screen.

                                                                I have listened to $100K+ Nola Line arrays setup at Lyric audio in Manhattan and was very impressed with them, but it's a 2 channel only deal, and I cant envision something panning across to a center channel thats not very similar during a movie that would sound correct and like I said, I cant do 3 big verticle line arrays, so I'm kinda not considering them anymore, price is a factor as well as I'd probably have over 5K in just the mains doing my own.

                                                                My friend that heard the focus 20/20s has similar taste in sound as me and I trust his opinion, You may prefer a "More audiophile" presentation than him and I do.

                                                                Let me also say as a point of reference that I've always liked the Paradaigm studio 100s just they dont quite have the headroom/surface area I'm looking for.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • probillygun
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Jun 2007
                                                                  • 58

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by numberoneoppa
                                                                  What about's Zaph's new SB Acoustics design?

                                                                  http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8691
                                                                  that looks sweet, I'm not really into the off set mids and tweet though.

                                                                  Another 12 per cabinet and ported at 30HZ might be sweet too for a full bottom end like the Legacy 20/20s

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • probillygun
                                                                    Member
                                                                    • Jun 2007
                                                                    • 58

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Undefinition
                                                                    Yep. If you are really wanting 115+ dB, no traditional HT speakers can cruise at that level (though some may hit the occasional peak). You will need pro audio drivers, or a line array to reach that SPL.
                                                                    If thats the case, then I may have to compromise and settle for peaks of 115db as long as it still has SQ at that level. I dont want a PA speaker sound like I had with my KLF-30s

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • probillygun
                                                                      Member
                                                                      • Jun 2007
                                                                      • 58

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Paul W
                                                                      I believe the most practical way to achieve your objective is quality pro gear...including a compression driver and horn/waveguide on the top end.

                                                                      One possibility would be good subs or bass-bins coupled with something like Brandon's "No Quarter" for midbass and HF.
                                                                      I never heard any pro gear have good enough sound for 2 channel listening to meet my expectations. Love it for theater though.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • cjd
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                                        • 5568

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by probillygun
                                                                        I never heard any pro gear have good enough sound for 2 channel listening to meet my expectations. Love it for theater though.
                                                                        That's because it wasn't designed for 2-channel SQ.

                                                                        I guarantee my 3-ways will hit 115dB peaks with aplomb. So will the Khanspires if you cross the sub in right (probably 60Hz for that). In fact, they'll likely go a bit louder without as much strain due to a higher cross on the tweeter.

                                                                        The Statements are open back and are pickier about room placement in a great many ways as a result. I suspect that's why they were not recommended.
                                                                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • probillygun
                                                                          Member
                                                                          • Jun 2007
                                                                          • 58

                                                                          #37
                                                                          ok, now thats what I'm talking about! 8)

                                                                          big ass kickin 3 ways that sound good too!

                                                                          Who can design me something like that or exactly that?

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • probillygun
                                                                            Member
                                                                            • Jun 2007
                                                                            • 58

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by ---k---

                                                                            This thread is starting to sound very familiar.

                                                                            Maybe he should just move on up to Kingpin's upgrade to CJD's 3-ways.

                                                                            Image not available

                                                                            Hi folks. First off would like to say that I have been lurking around here quite a while. I am really impressed at how you all work together on projects so much, and it is quite refreshing to see a community with a lot more postitve than negative attitude. A little about me. I have always been into audio and video. Just could


                                                                            You really should spend some time reading the sticky threads and the build threads for the different speakers. They may not be the speakers you want to build, but there is a wealth of knowledge contained in many of these threads. It will really help you better define your goals and expectations.

                                                                            Those Legacy are interesting. I doubt they will meet the goals that you have outlined. Maybe that is the problem, the commercial guys are exaggerating their abilities and we are telling the truth - the two aren't directly comparable. BTW in that Legacy, anyone know what the crossover frequency is between the tweeter and 6.5" mid and if there are issues with the c-c spacing?

                                                                            yes, I'm reading and learning as fast as I can but It's not like I'm NEO from the Matrix! haha!
                                                                            Last edited by theSven; 28 July 2023, 09:12 Friday. Reason: Update quote

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Jim Holtz
                                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                                              • Mar 2005
                                                                              • 3223

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by probillygun
                                                                              ok Jim, thanks for the input.

                                                                              Could you explain why the statements would not be good with my laminate screen? I'm getting concerned, because if that's the case, what speakers would be good for my laminate screen?!
                                                                              Chris nailed it below. All of the Statements have open back mids so they depend on the reflected back wave as well as the front wave to blend together to achieve the proper imaging. They're designed to have about 18" clearance between the speaker back and the wall behind with nothing blocking the reflected back wave from the speakers. A large laminated screen will do that unless the speakers are well in front of it.

                                                                              They also will handle 115 db peaks based on Unibox but I'd not recommend that volume for anything but peaks.

                                                                              I hate to be a wet blanket but the RBH speakers linked to break the laws of physics from what I can see. How do you get 3 dome tweeters in each speaker to not have terrible comb filtering? It's the same reason you never see dome tweeters in a good line array.

                                                                              I've included a picture of my line array set up from 2006. Note the center channel. It blended perfectly.

                                                                              Jim

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                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • exojam
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Dec 2006
                                                                                • 169

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Jim,

                                                                                What tweeters were in those line arrays?

                                                                                James

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • probillygun
                                                                                  Member
                                                                                  • Jun 2007
                                                                                  • 58

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                                                                  Chris nailed it below. All of the Statements have open back mids so they depend on the reflected back wave as well as the front wave to blend together to achieve the proper imaging. They're designed to have about 18" clearance between the speaker back and the wall behind with nothing blocking the reflected back wave from the speakers. A large laminated screeen will do that unless the speakers are well in front of it.

                                                                                  They also will handle 115 db peaks based on Unibox but I'd not recommend that volume for anything but peaks.

                                                                                  I hate to be a wet blanket but the RBH speakers linked to break the laws of physics from what I can see. How do you get 3 dome tweeters in each speaker to not have terrible comb filtering? It's the same reason you never see dome tweeters in a good line array.

                                                                                  I've included a picture of my line array set up from 2006. Note the center channel. It blended perfectly.

                                                                                  Jim
                                                                                  Jim,

                                                                                  I've been reading up on RBH and they seem to me a solid audiophile company and Audioholics reviews suggest their speakers are excellent.

                                                                                  I understand what comb filtering is but really dont know what that translates into as far as listening.

                                                                                  they also do extensive testing on their speakers;

                                                                                  Though RBH Sound isn't yet a household name that people relate to as they do Sony TVs or Ken more Refrigerators, they are one of the oldest speaker companies in the USA still run and operated by the


                                                                                  So I guess I can respect you saying they may or may not have combfiltering but not sure if it does or doesnt matter as the folks listening to them love em.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • probillygun
                                                                                    Member
                                                                                    • Jun 2007
                                                                                    • 58

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                                                                    Chris nailed it below. All of the Statements have open back mids so they depend on the reflected back wave as well as the front wave to blend together to achieve the proper imaging. They're designed to have about 18" clearance between the speaker back and the wall behind with nothing blocking the reflected back wave from the speakers. A large laminated screeen will do that unless the speakers are well in front of it.

                                                                                    They also will handle 115 db peaks based on Unibox but I'd not recommend that volume for anything but peaks.

                                                                                    I hate to be a wet blanket but the RBH speakers linked to break the laws of physics from what I can see. How do you get 3 dome tweeters in each speaker to not have terrible comb filtering? It's the same reason you never see dome tweeters in a good line array.

                                                                                    I've included a picture of my line array set up from 2006. Note the center channel. It blended perfectly.

                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                    If you're interested, found this article;

                                                                                    In preparation for our visit from RBH Sound on November 7th , we have prepared a short FAQ article to better understand their new flagship Signature Series speaker system know as the T-2 (not to be


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                                                                                    The designers of these speakers discuss lobing and it does not appear to be an issue in their design.

                                                                                    they also state they are 120db capable. bingo! already been done. Even if they are "Stretching" the 120db, I'll bet ya they do 115 no problem and like I said, I want the capability, and certainly wont be listening to hi end 2 channel that loud for extended periods.

                                                                                    Who can design me something like this?! Would love to use Dayton ref 10's or 12's on the bottom and maybe seas or Dayton mids with Dayton tweets?

                                                                                    thoughts?
                                                                                    Last edited by theSven; 28 July 2023, 09:17 Friday. Reason: Update image location

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Jim Holtz
                                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                                                      • 3223

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by exojam
                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                      What tweeters were in those line arrays?

                                                                                      James
                                                                                      Hi James,

                                                                                      Fountek Neo2.0

                                                                                      Jim

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Undefinition
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Dec 2006
                                                                                        • 577

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by probillygun
                                                                                        If you're interested, found this article;

                                                                                        In preparation for our visit from RBH Sound on November 7th , we have prepared a short FAQ article to better understand their new flagship Signature Series speaker system know as the T-2 (not to be



                                                                                        the designers of these speakers discuss lobing and it does not apear to be an issue in their design.

                                                                                        they also state they are 120db capable. bingo! already been done. Even if they are "Stretching" the 120db, I'll bet ya they do 115 no problem and like I said, I want the capability, and certainly wont be listening to hi end 2 channel that loud for extended periods.

                                                                                        Who can design me something like this?! Would love to use Dayton ref 10's or 12's on the bottom and maybe seas or dayton mids with dayton tweets?

                                                                                        thoughts?
                                                                                        I just read the interview you linked. That magazine should hire a proofreader. Mr. Rich didn't give much of a substantial answer as to how or why the lobing isn't an issue; he just says that boundary reflections are controlled, and that at the listening position the frequency response is very "uniform." He says he used high-order filters, fine; but I'm not sure how that's going to alleviate the problem of 3 tweeters over two feet apart, each playing sounds up to 20,000 Hz.

                                                                                        Also, the "extensive" design measures that the RBH company are nothing different than the experienced designers around here do (we all do impedance and MLS sweeps at the very least). And the 3/4" thick baffle and light bracing is laughable compared to most of the cabinet designs done by this forum's members.

                                                                                        You should look into Rick Craig's webpage at selah audio. He may be able to design you what you'd like; he does top-notch work. If you don't want to pay for the design, then do cjd's 3-ways with the sub, as shown earlier in the thread. For a center, do the Khancenter that cjd also designed. And I think that about does it for me in this discussion.
                                                                                        Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                                                                        Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Space
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Aug 2009
                                                                                          • 118

                                                                                          #45
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                                                                                          Here's another example of a well-reviewed speaker with three tweeters, the M&K S150. This is a little more convincing because the c-c spacing is smaller, but that's no help when you get above 6-7 kHz or so. Presumably the reduced vertical dispersion is part of the design. And the point is to increase sensitivity and dynamics?

                                                                                          About RBH and Audioholics--it is suspicious that several years after a dazzling review on this one website, there's not much else you can dig up about these speakers. Maybe there's a special relationship between the two, e.g. somebody's brother-in-law.

                                                                                          And doesn't this midwoofer look a lot like the ZA14? But the next size up...

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                                                                                          Last edited by theSven; 28 July 2023, 09:12 Friday. Reason: Update image location

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