Dipole or Monopole?

[Brian Bunge]

Yep, quitting in about 20 minutes! And I's edumacated now too!

Brian

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the tips, Hank. I wouldn't be putting a large speaker cabinet on the router table, just the front panel assembly before the rest of the cabinet is built. I'm familiar with rout overs in Oak, haven't had problems to date using a "graduated approach" (gradute from small bits to larger ones), but who knows, it is somewhat iffy. Dimensional changes in the oak afterwards coudl be a problem. I'd consider just using 1/4", but it's hard to find that thick in the lengths I'd need. Maybe a modified tack with veneer on the sizes, and selected hardwood pices on the front and top would work. I'll have to retreat to the mountains and meditate on this. That or think about it while flying over to Munich. Unfortunately, the frosty b*tches on Lufthansa don't want you to use CD players or any devices which have CD/DVDROM's during flight, so using the laptop probably isn't possible- unless I pulled the drive! Fix them, huh?


Sfdoddsy,

Dipole bass systems reduce the amount of room interaction drastically- though they don't eliminate it completely.

I don't believe in using just EQ to solve acoustics issues- you can place a monopole bass properly (see our closed thread about RD75's a month ago for some explanations re bass and boundary modes), then you have to consider also the listener position and modal issues in the room. EQ can help, but generally at a limited listening area. Positioning in the room and acoustic treatments are pretty vital, IMO, and EQ isn't a panacea; with poor placement, for example, in addition to peaks, (which you can cut), you wind up with nulls which no amount of power will fill, and which will cause problems elsewhere in the room if you try.

Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Hank]

Jon, I stick with my veneer recommendation - just think about it for several days. I'll be sending you the hand-rubbed Danish oil technique in the next day or so.

For now,
over and out

[PMazz]

I'd be leary of all the cutouts in solid wood for the drivers that would leave narrow areas in between the drivers. These would be the most susceptible to splitting, I think, and may cause problems down the road. I don't know how much the humidity fluctuates where you are, but around these parts it's quite a bit.

An oil finish is indeed quite nice when done properly, so Hank will get you on the right track I'm sure.

Are the Arvos on the back burner now? Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Pete

[JonMarsh]

Actaully, the humidity in the bay area is pretty stable and moderate - typically 40 - 80%. The climate is described as coastal mediterranean. We have a very long summer season with no preciptiation. It doesn't have the swings that Colorado does, for example, from very dry to super saturated.

As planned, there won't be any thin route outs. There may be a recessed channel for the woofers, but I'm currently skeptical that that is necessary, due to the low crossover frequency.

Are the Arvos on the back burner now? Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Not really. The problem has been that my work and travel load have put everything that involves "real" work (as opposed to conceptualization and CAD twiddling on the laptop while riding the train to/from work) somewhat on hold. Last weekend was a classic case, spent half on plumbing, laundry, shopping for my daughter, etc, and half on a key customer project from work.

That kind of drives me crazy, so it's "accelerated" my conceptual development schedule on the "Mano e Mano Array". Based on preliminary measurments, I have a "working" crossover for the Arvo Part simulated in CAD, but I have to concede I haven't taken a drill or screwdriver or soldering iron to hand for audio since early August.

We had a question/statement in our just released employee survey, (one of those ones where you click on one of five buttons (Agree, somewhat agree, don't know, somewhat disagree,
disagree) "You are able to balance the needs of your personal life and work life" - gee, I think I'll click the number five button, since they don't have a six or seven.....

Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Hank]

Human Resources here puts out such surveys only every couple of years, but it's a good thing to save the paper. We all know what the answers would be

[Dennis H]

Dang, there really aren't any original ideas in this hobby.

I thought I was really onto something original with my idea of using foam or wool covering the outer edges of a ribbon driver to imrove the polar response. Careful reading of the first paragraph of the doc below indicates that's exactly how the Neo3PDR works. Looks like they built a version of the Neo3 with a rising HF response and then damped the outer edges to bring it back to flat with a net result of improved lateral HF dispersion.

WTF? Who's kloning who here? :LOL:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-714.pdf

[JonMarsh]

Yup, they've beat us to it again.

I still think the Neo3PDR could make an interesting combo in a "smaller" speaker with the NEO8's in an MTM array, using my steep "finite slope crossover" (not to be confused with the Modaferri "Infinite slope" crossover) at about 2 kHz (I don't think you can really use the Neo3 as low as they state in the data sheet, especially not with a 2nd order crossover).

Sounds like an idea for retrofitting the as not yet completed Arvo Part design. Crossover could be aroud 750 or so to the midwoofers. The trouble is, the speaker would be getting kind of complicated crossover wise, at that point. It would be four way, with 10" woofers, 8" midwoofers, Neo8's and Neo3's. That's a LOT of inductors and capacitors.... unless you went active for the low end.

Always more ideas than time...

-Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Dennis H]

750 to 2K is only a little over an octave for the Neo8s. Is that the best way to use them or would you do better with midwoofs with a little more HF extension? Have you tried any of the smaller HiVi drivers?

As an aside, back to the line arrays, the 5" HiVi rings at about the same freq as the big RD ribbons. I'm not sure about the implications but it might mean the (active?) EQ could be upstream of the crossover and a relatively simple crossover (even first order?) could be used.

[JonMarsh]

Well, in general I agree using a midrange driver only over an octave and a half or two octaves would be a little weird. You coudl run the Neo8's down to about 600 with some care. No lower. Then the midwoofers could be optimized for 600 Hz and below. And I mean cost optimized.

For example, use two or four of the MCM 6-1/2" CF cast frame jobbers- they're under $20 each, have very good construction and performance below 1 kHz- can be optimized for good response in a ported system down to 32 Hz or a little lower, depending on room placement and box size. We're talking a WMTMW type arrangement; I've given some thought to this as a "surround" speaker to the big line array's I'm going to build.

Now, the question is, how would it compare in performance with an MTM built with SEAS Excel 7" drivers, and a focal tweeter, for example?

Neo8 4 pieces: $240
Neo3PDR 2 pices: $ 80
MCM 6.5" 8 pieces: $160
===============================
Total: $ 480

Tc120dx2 2 ea: $ 160
Seas 6.5/7" 8 ea. $ 1200

Total: $ 1360

Crossovers?


There's lots of other ways to spin this. Drop the number of 6.5/7's, but then that drops LF output disproportionately compared with the rest of the capability. For the SEAS example, makes moeny sense. For the MCM's, it doesn't.

For either of these, I imagine a cabinet similar to the Thor footprint, but a little taller, and a more conventional ported configuration.

Just more "what ifs".

This is just in response to Ted's quesitons about using smaller ribbons.

For that matter, a pair of Philips ribbons or Ravens puts the pricing in a totall different category, anyway.

I'm wondering if I should layout my big arrays so that I could retrofit a stack of 10 Neo3 PDR modules per side later on, to get a roughly 3 foot window of extended top end later on.

Something to think about.

-Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[PMazz]

OK, I've got a pair of RD 50s on order. First up....dipole config. Can wings be used for the baffle? My plan would be a 12" wide baffle tilted back about 4 degrees and have wings attached to each side but running plumb, top to bottom. Think of a trapezoid about 16" wide at the top and maybe 20" wide at the bottom. Saw off the center section at 12" wide and have the two wings left. This would give the baffle some support as well as extra width at the bottom.

Pete

[Dennis H]

Hmmmm, for the price of a stack of Neo3s you could buy a Newform ribbon - true line source and excellent horizontal dispersion because it's only 3/4" wide. $340 for the 30" and $520 for the 45". You could probably even cross the mid-woof stack to it directly and get back to a 2-way. So many choices......

Newform prices

http://www.newformresearch.com/factory_direct_prices.html

Specs and curves

http://www.newformresearch.com/literature/techoverview5.pdf

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for reminding me, Dennis!

I don't think I could cross the midwoof stack I'm planning, as those little inexpensive but mostly well designed MCM carbon fiber babies have their first cone mode around 1 kHz, manifesting as a sharp dip/notch. The newforms are best above 1 kHz, but bringing them in just below the cavity resonance of the BG's could work pretty well. Hmmmm. Run the BG's from 600 to 4800, would be 4 octaves; run a newform above that?

Hmmm, they are only 3-1/4" wide, this is good, space is a problem.

Not a bad idea, Dennis.

If you've heard the BG RD drivers in the 600 - 6 kHz range, you'd know why I don't want to give them up, and the dynamics they're capable of in that range (keeps the excursion down, unlike running them down to 250 like some folks try to do).

If I go this way I'll wind up with the weirdest ratio of woofer to mid/treble cost ever known in a speaker, I think. (the MCM's 6-1.2" CF cast frame are under $20 each). $160 for the woofers, $400+ for the mids, and $340 for the tweeters... per side.

Well, unless Uncle Ullie is real kind to me in my paycheck for the end of the fiscal year, I may just have to reserve a space in the cabinet for the tweeter upgrade for now.

As you say, so many choices.....




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Dennis H]

Just thinking out loud.....

6 - HiVi M6N - $406
1 - Newform 45 - $520

XO at 1K? I don't know about the Xmax of the Newform but, in theory, crossing an octave higher than the BG should let it operate without strain (4x the ribbon area required for every octave lower.)

The RD is a great driver but it almost forces you into a 3-way plus sub. It doesn't quite go low enough to cross to real woofers and it doesn't quite make the top end either. I've got a philosophical problem with the comb filtering of side-by-side HF ribbons but maybe it's not that big a deal in practice?

[ThomasW]

Dennis

I've had email chats with John Meyer. The Newforms have a soft top end too.....not a whole lot different than the B&G's...

The Newform ribbons can't be returned if purchased as raw parts. The B&G's can be returned if in 'like new' condition.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[GM]

Gees Pete, if ever a room screamed the need for horns, this is it! :roll:

GM




Loud Is Beautiful, If It's Clean

[PMazz]

I no sooner start ordering parts for a project when along comes some other advice that I'll just have to try. Months of research, probably another couple grand in parts....God this shit is fun!

OK, Greg, let me have it. Tell me why I just gotta build horns.

Pete

[sfdoddsy]

You might start looking at this thread then do a search at AVS for Unity Horns.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10922&highlight=Unity+H orns

In short, the horns are supposed to provide maximum dynamics, but also to take the room further out of the equation by controlling the dispersion from the speakers.

It is very interesting stuff.

Steve




Steve's DIY Dipoles

[Brian Bunge]

Pete,

My dad and I will be making a detour to Greg's place on the day of the DIY Atlanta event and will get to hear his horns. Luckily, he lives very close to where the event is taking place!

Brian

[Hank]

Oh no, just when I was convinced by the Grand Poobahs that line source is THE ultimate speaker (unless you can afford the big maggies), here comes a horn devotee. Will this never end??? :? Unlike Pete, I don't have an endless supply of funds to build one of everything, so I must resist the temptation to embark on a horn study. ...Must resist......must....m...

[ThomasW]

Hey!

You guys need to get back on topic

This is from the MAD board. A line array of Excel Drivers 8O

http://hometown.aol.com/bvirgil311/Excelarray.htm

Turns out I can post from the Inn at Silver Creek, but the online connection cost is $.50/min :evil:




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[GM]

Hmm, you don't 'gotta build' anything, but considering all the posting you've done I'm surprised you would need to even ask why horns are an obvious option (and IMO the best one, even if I am biased), if little/no additional room treatment/component relocation is viable. Admittedly, my remark was a bit of a nose tweak in that folks tend to dismiss horns out of hand due to their perceived complexity and/or generally bad rep based on hearing 'honky' PA designs.

WRT your already ordering components, I assume you posted this later in the thread, but for some reason this forum loads so slow for me compared to others that I didn't get past the first page before responding. Also, I checked the 'please email me when someone replies to my topic' box, but I see that didn't work either. Oh well, I browse too many forums already.

Anyway, since you've already spent months choosing what you feel bests suits your needs/sonic preferences, I apologize for my presumptuous suggestion.

GM




Loud Is Beautiful, If It's Clean

[PMazz]

Greg,
You may have mistaken my post. I'm all ears. Especially when it comes from you! As new as line arrays were to me several months ago, admittedly still never having built/listened to one, my interest in this hobby is for the long term it seems, and any and all good information is welcome. I have never really followed any "horn threads", and have no clue why they would be good for my room, in particular. I guess I'm just a horn newbie.

Steve,
Thanks for the link. It'll take me a while to read thru it, tho.

Brian,
I'm jealous! I was thinking of going to the DC meet, but work is absolutely crazy right now so I'll probably just wait for the posts about how great it was.

Pete

[PMazz]

Hank, trust me, I can't afford to build everything I'd like, but as you know, we're always looking for that "next level" of performance. I thought LAs would be the one, too. It never ends....happily for me, cause I enjoy this stuff too much.

Tom, Those pics are close to what you thought we might try for making a narrower baffle. Question, with the dipole ribbon next to the enclosure for the line of mid woofs, wouldn't that cause some problems with reflections from the ribbon?

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete

That particular $$$$$ LA is using a pair of the NewForm Research ribbons/side so everything is monopole.

As with all designs there are trade-offs. The Newforms must have a 1Khz XO point, so that dictates use of a midwoofer with a good top end. The Seas Excel drivers have an excellent top end for a metal midwoofer, but they cost ~$140-$160ea.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Dennis H]

I asked Brad about his new Seas/Newform LA's. He's stoked. He and Rick measured the distortion with Clio and they're getting very low levels even at loud volumes with the 850 XO. They're using a higher order XO than the stock Newforms so they nudged the Fc down a bit and still got less distortion.

I'm a monopole kinda guy so the Newform ribbons are looking better and better to me. I really like that they are only 3/4" wide so you can run them all the way to the top without lateral dispersion problems. They roll off a touch at 20K but not as bad as the RDs. If you wanted them ruler flat, a small bit of shelving in the XO would handle it. Personally, I don't mind speakers that are down a hair at 20K, especially with CDs, so I probably wouldn't bother. Maybe I'll just have to get a pair and try them for myself.

[GM]

Hmm, sure had me fooled. Anyway, as others have noted, horns are used as much for their ability to control the polar response as they are for increasing on-axis efficiency. Actually, the former causes the latter. If the acoustic energy is focussed at some point in space away from walls, etc., then there can't be any audible early reflections unless they come from the back wall. Since you've gone the backwall bookcase route like me, you've already got this covered.

Since TW wants me to stay on-topic I'll stop here. WRT vertical arrays, I've been down this road in my periodic quest to get the best horn performance characteristics in a smaller package, and they come close, but in your room, close but no cigar IMO. I don't know what design you have planned, but it should still be a big step up from your present speakers if dipole is used. Once you have them dialed in, I suggest you experiment with at least a full height semi-circle trailpad foam diffusor spaced behind them on a separate/movable rack to limit rear wave mids/HF dispersion. I experimented with up to 270deg wrap around diffusors and the results were interesting.

Anyway, if you want to discuss any of this further, please either continue on another forum or email me. FWIW, there's a horn basics thread developing over at HTT in LarryB's Avantgarde review: http://www.hometheatertalk.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006621.html

GM




Loud Is Beautiful, If It's Clean

[PMazz]

Thanks Greg, I'll have to start paying more attention to discussions of horns. I saw the thread on those horns at HTT and although they look pretty neat, wouldn't work in my room aesthetically.

Got the RD50s today, but they'll have to wait till I get some time to put something together.

Pete

[PMazz]

I got a chance to open the RD50s and at least inspect them for damage. Good thing I did. One of the units had its wire leads cut off about an inch out of the end of the unit. A call to PE to confirm it's OK to go in and resolder some leads on and hopefully nothing else will be wrong. I'm dying to put something together and have a listen. Maybe this weekend....if I'm not working.....maybe next weekend.

Pete

[sfdoddsy]

Just getting back to the dipole/monopole part I've been looking at the some of the commercially available dipole speakers and the design choices made.

The Alon Grand Exotica is monopole up to 400Hz or so then dipole the rest of the way.

The Audio Artistry Dvoraks were the opposite, ie monopole for the tweetrs than dipole all the wzay down for mids and bass.

Then the Legacy Whispers I believe are dipole all the way.

And I'm just wondering if anyone has thoughts on why the Alon in particular would go this way when one of the major dipole benefits is supposed to minimising room interaction from 400 or so down.

Cheers

Steve




Steve's DIY Dipoles

[Hank]

Pete, congrats on your new acquisition! I look forward to your reaction to the RD50 sound.

sfdoddsy, you've asked an excellent question. I'm still not clear on how doing the tweets monopole and the woofs dipole OR visa-versa, would work well. It seems that the Grand Poobahs recommend doing tweets and woofs both the same, either all dipole or all monopole. But, there are high-end mfgrs mixing them and they seem to be well-regarded speakers. Here's a thought: maybe because of price, those commercial speakers are bought mainly by people with high income and who have larger homes with larger rooms and therefore those speakers are typically installed in VERY large rooms, therefore less inherent speaker/ adjacent wall interaction, so mixed dipole/monopole or all dipole or all monopole wouldn't make a difference. Just a theory.

[ThomasW]

The Whispers are dipole for only the woofers (250Hz and down). The midwoofers and tweeters are monopole.

Having the woofers operate as dipole allows makes for less critical room placement, but creates the situation of having significantly lower bass output.

So the designer makes the choice of where he wants to compromise. Easier room placement vs increased bass output




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[PMazz]

Thanks Hank, will do. The first thing that comes to mind is the build quality. Very heavy and solid. I talked to PE again today about the clipped wire. I couldn't figure out how to get into the wiring compartment. What looked like small allen head screws turned out not to be. Not wanting to damage the unit, I stopped and called tech support again. As usual, the guy in the know on these things has to get back to me. I may actually get some time tomorrow to play a little bit with an enclosure....or lack thereof.

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete

Do not attempt to open the ends of the units. Those are not machine screws they are in fact pop rivets. If you remove the end cap you run the risk of tearing the wires off the point where they are soldered to the metal foil. That will result in the driver having to be returned to B&G for a complete rebuild = $$$$

If the short lead is an issue for you return the unit to PE for replacement




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[PMazz]

Well, I got to put a dipole RD50 together today. I stripped the cut wires and just used a crimp connecter on them. Got home and did a quick hookup. Set my processors sub xover to 200 Hz and did a quick calibration. Different. Will have to spend some time getting accustomed to the sound. My Tempests are barely doing justice to the lower octaves. Setting up an ETF test revealed a fairly good FR with the exception of the 5 KHz resonance. Definitely needs to be dealt with. Upper rolloff ~15 KHz, lower w/o sub ~ 200Hz. Not sure dipole config will work for me, tho. Sounds disjointed from right to left. Have a FR graph but can't access my web page now for some reason. Pics to follow maybe tomorrow.

Looking at B&Gs recommended notch filter values. Can't find a .05 uF inductor. Now what?

Pete

[ThomasW]

The panels are directional. They must be angled in so that you can see the alu foil from each panel. Experiment with the panels crossing in front of the main listening position. That frequently widens the sweet spot.

What baffle do you have them mounted in?

I'm not sure who sells really small inductors. I made the ones for my panels by unwindng 0.10mF coils.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[PMazz]

I made the ones for my panels by unwindng 0.10mF coils.

Do you unwind half of it to reduce the inductance by half?

I'll play more today with placement, thanks.

Pete

[JonMarsh]

Do you unwind half of it to reduce the inductance by half?

No, the inductance is related to the square of the number of turns, an also the overall geometry. It's actually easier to calculate when you have a core material, but core's have problems- best to go air core. It's best to have an LC meter and check it carefully.

If you want to wind one from scratch, on a 1" dia bobbin, you'll need about 38 -41 T, assuming the bobbin height is no more than an inch.

Maybe the easiest thing to do would be to make you some and send them- I'm going to have a very busy week this week, and will be traveling from next weekend on for another week, but with any luck I can fit it in. What I was planning was something a bit more than just a 16 or 14 AWB small air core coil; I have a few spools of AWG 12 350 strand custom litz wire I had made for high freqeuncy magentics (class D amp output inductors, specifically), in the late 80's; this should work well, though it's a bit of a pain to deal with, due to the stranding insulation- makes having a solder pot fairly important. But I can pre-tin them for you. The conductors are big, so it doesn't wind up being a "small" coil, but let's see what I can do, since I need to make some for myself, and probably for ThomasW, too.

Keep in mind overall setup is pretty important to getting the most out of the BG ribbons. ThomasW and I weren't all that impressed with the sound and initial measurements with the RD75's when we first tried the dipole array. It wasn't until after I thought about the whole thing for a while, and suggested trying them with the Acoustats at 600 Hz, that our impressions of them really "improved". I think running them down to 200 Hz or so is not the optimum - but then I've expressed my opinions at length here. They'll need a good size baffle for dipole mode- I gather you're going from the RD's to the Tempests with your current experiment? Is this correct?

Regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[JonMarsh]

This project Thomas came across, which is the configuration being touted on Selah Audio, is interesting.

The cabinets are very nicely made, and of course the Excel drivers are first class, (Mercedes class? with a corresponding price.

But I don't understand the integration between the two- or lack. Having the ribbon seperate and set back so much from the front must create some issues with diffraction/comb filtering from the adjacent cabinet wall. Yet, I expect the basic high performance of the drivers contributes to some enjoyable characteristics, regardless of some details of the implementation.

Let's see, that's about $1800 of Excel woofers alone, aside from the Newform ribbon.

Nice woodworking, isn't it?


-Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[ThomasW]

I can't believe the ribbons are spaced back from the front of the midwoofer baffle. Man talk about a diffraction nightmare 8O 8O 8O 8O




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Dennis H]

Brad says that's partly optical illusion and partly some of the photos were taken during setup and he didn't have the ribbons aligned yet. If you look at the photo straight from the side, the ribbons are flush with the midwoof baffle. Anyway, they are adjustable front to back and can be rotated.

That said, I would have built them so the ribbon enclosures were almost touching the midwoof edges to improve the polar response in the crossover region. Then maybe a touch of damping material between the ribbon and the midwoof.

The other thing that bothers me is they are seated-only speakers. That was an intentional choice by Brad because lying down listening is more important to him than standing. But it bugs the heck out of me if the sound goes away when I stand. I mean, what if you might want to do something silly like [gasp] dance to the music? If I were starting from scratch, I'd spend the extra money to use 2-30" per side so they would work all the way from lying to standing. Or, if I had to compromise on the height, I'd get the tops up to standing level. But that's just me. With Rick's kit, you could do the enclosures however you wanted as long as you kept about the same baffle width.

[PMazz]

Welcome back Jon!

I put notch filters together from the scrap bucket-o-parts. I had a couple .4mH 18 ga air core inductors in there. I appreciate the offer for the good stuff. Maybe swap for some veneer?

The baffle is 12" across the front with wings that taper from 2 3/4" at the top to 4 3/4" at the bottom. I'm going directly to the Tempests with a 200 Hz xover. I still have to get the Marchand/amp. I cut some OW703 (2" semi ridged) fiberglass pieces today to wedge into the back of them to see if that affects things, just for fun.

Web page still not working so no pics.

Pete

[PMazz]

Here's a graph with the notch filter installed. It's taken from the listening position ~ 12' from the right dipole.



The notch filter did the trick for the 5dB hump that was there. The lower roll-off is the natural response of the RD50 but the sub is kicking in to pick it back up. I also think it's going to need top end help. Will hold off final judgement until I get it properly configured. Now to order the Marchand xover. I think I'll get a 3 way, just in case. The 3 way can, I assume , also be used for a 2 way if desired??

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete

Yes the 3-way Marchand can be used as a 2-way




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[PMazz]

Here's some pics.





Sounding better and better. Some positioning and some EQ from 3KHz up helped quite a bit. Very wide soundstage. Imaging is good.

Ordered the Marchand today. Amp is next. Anyone have any tips for dealing with people on Audiogon? Should I be trusting enough to send someone a money order or check? I have doubts. Is Paypal any safer? What about the escrow services?

Pete