speaker design that kicks your chest in?

[johnathanwinter]

just got done listening to Led Zeppelin's Bonzo's Montreux for the past half hour on the way home from work. so now to the real question. has anyone designed some speakers that will just kick you in the chest with this tune? im not talking the wimpy little bass that is heard playing in the cars on the road that goes thump thump... im talking a full fledge ogre beating.

does anyone know what i mean?

what would be the type of drivers needed for a speaker to do this? what kind of setup would be required?

should i even be posting this?

[fjhuerta]

A Dayton Audio Titanic 15" on a big ported enclosure would surely do the trick...

[johnathanwinter]

A Dayton Audio Titanic 15" on a big ported enclosure would surely do the trick...

just one? would i stand inside the enclosure?
are you familiar with Bonzo's Montreux?

what about the cymbols and snares?

[johnathanwinter]

had to post this review, way to funny!

happy
Saturday, January 24, 2009
studio six t nine from dog house


I have two of these all i can say is.

me happy,folks next door sad,cops mad

[ThomasW]

Compression frequencies are 60-120Hz....

[johnathanwinter]

so thats woofer frequencies not sub frequencies?

[evilskillit]

Well I suppose it all depends on how much you want to spend or how far you want to go. You could manifold 8 18" subwoofer into your broom closet and stand inside with the door shut and listen to the "music"

You might also be interested in a serious SPL setup using pro drivers. Its really hard to say what you want but if you could further explain if you are serious and what your objectives are I'm sure everyone here could point you in the right direction.

[cjd]

What Thomas said. Yeah, it's woofer frequency.

That's why so many commercial designs have a nice 3-5dB hump in response from a high-Q alignment and like it.

[johnathanwinter]

Well I suppose it all depends on how much you want to spend or how far you want to go. You could manifold 8 18" subwoofer into your broom closet and stand inside with the door shut and listen to the "music"

You might also be interested in a serious SPL setup using pro drivers. Its really hard to say what you want but if you could further explain if you are serious and what your objectives are I'm sure everyone here could point you in the right direction.

explain more of what i want. ever have a 'fine' day at work and crank up some tunes to find that it just isnt loud enough and cant get loud enough? loud really doesnt do it though. its more about power, or feeling the drum hits. the stuff that makes you want to bang your head into a wall.

im talking about a tweeter that creates a cymbol hit that cracks you in your forehead and a mid that slaps you across the face when a snare hits, a woofer that punches you in the chest when the kick drum is slammed.

I guess i just need a set of drums.

i am not looking for something to build. i dont have a budget on it so i dont care what it would cost to create a speaker or speaker system that would do this.
what would it take to create a speaker that could do this? high spl? high excursion? pro line array? 10,000 watts of available power? AC/DC live in the living room?

[johnathanwinter]

What Thomas said. Yeah, it's woofer frequency.

That's why so many commercial designs have a nice 3-5dB hump in response from a high-Q alignment and like it.

high-Q alignment?

googled it. came up with fiber coupling, Ultra-high-Q toroid microcavity on a chip, and other stuff that is so over my head that its like reading ancient greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

is there an english version?

[Jed]

I'd imagine a good line array with multiple woofers should do the trick.

[brianpowers27]

Is this intense enough?

[AJINFLA]

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/cerwinvega_cls215.htm

[Johnloudb]

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/c...ega_cls215.htm

Yeah, Stereophile liked that one too.

[ThomasW]

high-Q alignment?

googled it. came up with.......

We're talking about a higher Qtc.....

http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/thiele.asp

[evilskillit]

Yeah I'd say high SPL pro sound stuff would probably trip your trigger, 1 or 2 good subs and alot of woofers playing in 60+ hz range...

You'd probably like those cerwin vegas. Or just go to your local music shop and buy a bunch of pro sound gear and set it up in your living room, thats what my dad has. Can't really speak for the sound quality of his setup but having several 18" woofers and horn tweeters being pushed by a few thousand watts of power in a 20x13 living room certainly creates that rock concert feel. Tho if you wan't to enjoy it for years to come you might consider wearing ear plugs while listening. heh

[Undefinition]

explain more of what i want. ever have a 'fine' day at work and crank up some tunes to find that it just isnt loud enough and cant get loud enough? loud really doesnt do it though. its more about power, or feeling the drum hits. the stuff that makes you want to bang your head into a wall.

im talking about a tweeter that creates a cymbol hit that cracks you in your forehead and a mid that slaps you across the face when a snare hits, a woofer that punches you in the chest when the kick drum is slammed.

I guess i just need a set of drums.

Not that you asked, but recently I decided to take out my SPL meter while playing drums. I set it within about a meter of my head and practiced for a while. I'm not even that loud of a player, but it averaged between 105-115 dB (so THAT's why I always wear hearing protection?!).

However, some people like that sort of "feeling of impact." And honestly, home theater speakers aren't really built for that. That's pro sound SPL. So I agree with the previous posters. I have PA speakers with 100 dB @ 1 watt sensitivity (15" + piezo horn), and I pair that up with a 750 watt power amp. It's plenty of power for those long hotel ballrooms, where I've played shows and DJed and whatever. In a house or normal living quarters, it's got more power than I can handle.

As for the issue of sound quality: well, honestly, at that sort of SPL, it's really hard to hear clearly as my actual ear drums are clipping!

[johnathanwinter]

Not that you asked, but recently I decided to take out my SPL meter while playing drums. I set it within about a meter of my head and practiced for a while. I'm not even that loud of a player, but it averaged between 105-115 dB (so THAT's why I always wear hearing protection?!).

However, some people like that sort of "feeling of impact." And honestly, home theater speakers aren't really built for that. That's pro sound SPL. So I agree with the previous posters. I have PA speakers with 100 dB @ 1 watt sensitivity (15" + piezo horn), and I pair that up with a 750 watt power amp. It's plenty of power for those long hotel ballrooms, where I've played shows and DJed and whatever. In a house or normal living quarters, it's got more power than I can handle.

As for the issue of sound quality: well, honestly, at that sort of SPL, it's really hard to hear clearly as my actual ear drums are clipping!

thats some really good info thanks. that leads to a certain direction of whats actually needed for "feeling of impact". And thanks for coming up with the description of what im looking for is called.

a couple of questions for you. do you know about what freq range snare drums are? i think they are called snare drums, the drums that sit on top of the bottom big round one. and also whats your best guess of what the freq of those cymbols that slam together are and what is the db level of that? Just off the top of your head info. im not looking for exact measurements just guesses or thereabouts. thanks.

[johnathanwinter]

lines, pro stuff, or just high spl with lots of excursion (is that the right term for high xmax? meaning the woofer and mids need alot of cone travel.)

would the room have to be pressurized with 60 to 120hz freq. to get the "feeling of impact"?

jed, id like so see your idea of a good line array as your builds look pretty close to half a line already.

Thomas if it isnt to much trouble could you give me an example of the higher qts? im pretty dense. but thanks for the link. im really learning alot.

[---k---]

As for the issue of sound quality: well, honestly, at that sort of SPL, it's really hard to hear clearly as my actual ear drums are clipping!

Now that is funny!

[---k---]

Thomas if it isnt to much trouble could you give me an example of the higher qts? im pretty dense. but thanks for the link. im really learning alot.

Just use Unibox or WinISD to model your favorite woofer. Model it with a couple different Qs. You'll quickly learn that as the Q goes up, a peak can develop in the bass, adding a few extra decibels. ie. the response is no longer flat and accurate, but fun and punchy.

Unibox is easy to use. If you want to learn a lot, no better way than to jump in.

[johnathanwinter]

Just use Unibox or WinISD to model your favorite woofer. Model it with a couple different Qs. You'll quickly learn that as the Q goes up, a peak can develop in the bass, adding a few extra decibels. ie. the response is no longer flat and accurate, but fun and punchy.

Unibox is easy to use. If you want to learn a lot, no better way than to jump in.

unibox and winisd... right on, thanks.

[ThomasW]

Thomas if it isnt to much trouble could you give me an example of the higher qts? im pretty dense. but thanks for the link. im really learning alot.

Personally I don't do designs with higher Qts, since it may 'feel' like live music but it doesn't 'sound' like live music.

If you want that same effect all you need to do is dial in some bass boast to any speaker with enough headroom that the drivers will take it.

BTW the boom, boom, boom you hear from car sub, is in this frequency range...

[johnathanwinter]

Personally I don't do designs with higher Qts, since it may 'feel' like live music but it doesn't 'sound' like live music.

If you want that same effect all you need to do is dial in some bass boast to any speaker with enough headroom that the drivers will take it.

BTW the boom, boom, boom you hear from car sub, is in this frequency range...

the drivers have to be capable though or you just get mud. loud mud isnt what im aiming for. tight rythmic pressure waves.

what about drivers mounted behind drivers in a push push config? would this help in any way? like with the legacy whisper? ( i seriously dont understand that design at all.)

[ThomasW]

The compound loaded 15"s in the Whispers are to increase the output +3dB and increase power handling for the active EQ Legacy uses to increase the low bass output

[johnathanwinter]

could you do it with 6 inch or 8 inch mids/woofers with the same effect?

[ThomasW]

could you do it with 6 inch or 8 inch mids/woofers with the same effect?

Sure if you buy them by the dozen....

[Scooter]

How about http://www.hobbyhifi.de/Archiv/06/05_06/05_06.html. The big Speaker on the frontpage is called Optimum, a WMTMW with 15" Usher, 8" Audax, Hi-Vi magnetostat.

[fjhuerta]

just one? would i stand inside the enclosure?
are you familiar with Bonzo's Montreux?

what about the cymbols and snares?

Not familiar with that, but my Adire Audio 15" Tempest gives a major kick when I turn it up...

[Jim Holtz]

I think the thing to understand is that a speaker with the bass pumped up to pound your chest would usually be described as a "party speaker" rather than an audiophile design with reproduction accuracy in mind. A party speaker will remind you of the time you sat in the front row of the rock concert in front of the huge speaker. However, rock concerts are not reference listening material.

That brings to mind when I auditioned my line arrays (with 12" TC Sound sub in each one) for a young man who is a DJ in one of the local clubs on weekends and the son of friends of mine. He listened to the cuts I was proudly playing and asked me "where's the bass"? I had the line arrays adjusted to have as accurate of bass as possible which didn't sound anything like the club sound he was playing on the weekends.

I figured out real quickly, he was not going to be impressed. :rofl:

FWIW...

Jim

[---k---]

Yeah, I've had the same experience with my Khans. I had someone tell me that they expected so much more base from dual 8" drivers.

Easiest way to get the party sound is to set the receiver to 200hz crossover and turn the sub up 10db.

[johnathanwinter]

Here’s how drums shake out:

· Bass drum: 50Hz to 5.5 kHz, thump in chest boost a few dB between 60-85Hz, punch or slap 2.5 kHz to 5 kHz, hollow sound cut out around 250-500Hz by a few dB, based upon tuning. Note: Its suggested that you have more control over sound with a drum that’s a little “hollow” sounding rather than very dry and heavily muffled, or not muffled at all.

· Cymbals: 300Hz to 17 kHz; Presence 10 kHz to 14 kHz. Typically boosted a few dB at 10 kHz and cut some between 50-450 Hz.

· Key Jingles: 1.5 kHz to 17 kHz (for perspective).

· Snare Drum: 100 Hz to 12 kHz, center frequency at 1 kHz, tight at 5-6 kHz (typical boost frequency), crack at 8 to 10 kHz, bottom at 100 to 300 Hz and resonance between 800 Hz and 2 kHz.

· Toms: Typically boosted a few dB around 4-5.5 kHz and again at 9-10 kHz, cut around 500-750 on high to mid toms with low toms treated the same, but in the lower portion of the values given, based upon drum tuning.

will this information help any?

its no issue getting the slam of the bass drum with a couple of good subs by boosting the 65 to 85 hz range and probably cutting below this to get rid of the mud.

working with the mids it looks to me like id need lots of power from a driver that doesnt put out very much in the way of air movement. so i figure id need some kind of line for this. so probably a line of 8 6 inch mids with 8 more mounted behind for a push push config (thanks thomas) with a peak at 2khz to 6khz. i would think this would put out enough to get a good whack from a snare.

am i on the right track here?

[johnathanwinter]

I think the thing to understand is that a speaker with the bass pumped up to pound your chest would usually be described as a "party speaker" rather than an audiophile design with reproduction accuracy in mind. A party speaker will remind you of the time you sat in the front row of the rock concert in front of the huge speaker. However, rock concerts are not reference listening material.

That brings to mind when I auditioned my line arrays (with 12" TC Sound sub in each one) for a young man who is a DJ in one of the local clubs on weekends and the son of friends of mine. He listened to the cuts I was proudly playing and asked me "where's the bass"? I had the line arrays adjusted to have as accurate of bass as possible which didn't sound anything like the club sound he was playing on the weekends.

I figured out real quickly, he was not going to be impressed. :rofl:

FWIW...

Jim

thats just to dang funny... :rofl: i hate it when that happens. :lol:

i dont understand why a rock concert isnt reference listening material. is it just because its live so rock taped in a studio would be reference material? or is it because its not usually as dynamic as classical?

or do you mean being at a rock concert isnt reference quality because its just plain LOUD!!? :lol:

[Undefinition]

Dude, my prognosis is that what you need is some pro audio equipment. Get a Crown, QSC, or even a Behringer power amp, get some 15"+horn speakers, a graphic EQ, and you'll be in heaven.

The school where I teach at has replaced their old PA speakers: SoundTech CX2. I could sell them to you for next to nothing (like $150 each). In fact, I can sell you a 400 W/channel SoundTech amp to go with it for a steal as well. The stuff is in good working condition. Are you interested?

[johnathanwinter]

How about http://www.hobbyhifi.de/Archiv/06/05_06/05_06.html. The big Speaker on the frontpage is called Optimum, a WMTMW with 15" Usher, 8" Audax, Hi-Vi magnetostat.

i dont know. can it reproduce 6khz with enough power to load a room?

[johnathanwinter]

Dude, my prognosis is that what you need is some pro audio equipment. Get a Crown, QSC, or even a Behringer power amp, get some 15"+horn speakers, a graphic EQ, and you'll be in heaven.

The school where I teach at has replaced their old PA speakers: SoundTech CX2. I could sell them to you for next to nothing (like $150 each). In fact, I can sell you a 400 W/channel SoundTech amp to go with it for a steal as well. The stuff is in good working condition. Are you interested?

not really interested... sorry. the cx2s dont put out enough and i have two EV amps already so im good for about 850 watts into 2ohms.

but hey thanks for the offer. got my eye on a couple of EQs though.
this system just might have to be highly active. i dont think its something that would actually ever get built though.

[Dennis H]

working with the mids it looks to me like id need lots of power from a driver that doesnt put out very much in the way of air movement. so i figure id need some kind of line for this....

i dont know. can it reproduce 6khz with enough power to load a room?

I think you are missing a basic principle. Every time you go an octave higher (double the frequency), you only need to move 1/4 the air for the same SPL. For example, 5K is 6 octaves higher than 80 and you only have to move .00024 as much air for the same SPL.

[cjd]

its no issue getting the slam of the bass drum with a couple of good subs by boosting the 65 to 85 hz range and probably cutting below this to get rid of the mud.

"boosting the 65-85hZ RANGE" is adding mud.

Cutting below is not reducing mud unless you're driving speakers (such as many low(er) excursion pro drivers designed to bottom out around 50Hz with a standard bandpass alignment) too hard.

There is nothing at all wrong with building up a system to DO these things, to bring that "live concert" feel to your living room, but understand that it's not going to be accurate from a frequency response perspective.

My mains (dual 10's on the woofer end) can shake the floor - they deliver lots of relatively low bass ("relatively" being that they kind-of wander out in the mid 20Hz range). They DO NOT deliver a live rock concert feel. They DO deliver a live orchestra performance.



My HT does a little better on the bass, delivering pretty flat response to somewhere in the 1xHz range. It still won't deliver that live rock concert feel.

The Squeezebox Boom I use as an alarm clock (couple 3" "woofers") comes much much closer - my wife and I both find the sound to be false and rather pathetic. Unless we're waxing nostalgic over 80's rock (ironically, that was the theme of tonight's movie too...)

C

[Jim Holtz]

thats just to dang funny... :rofl: i hate it when that happens. :lol:

i dont understand why a rock concert isnt reference listening material. is it just because its live so rock taped in a studio would be reference material? or is it because its not usually as dynamic as classical?

or do you mean being at a rock concert isnt reference quality because its just plain LOUD!!? :lol:

A rock concert is mixed to have loud booming bass that fires the crowd up. The usual reference is live unamplified music. Accurate reproduction is usually based on that rather than something that varies depending on the guy running the console and the size of the venue.

Just an FYI since we talked a lot about the Statements, they're based on accuracy.

Jim

[16hz lover]

go to the klipsch forum and type in Jubilee or Jamboree, there's your slam and punch in your chest.

[Dennis H]

An accurate speaker should accurately play whatever is on the disk. If what's on the disk is a rock concert, what comes out of the speakers should sound like a rock concert. If the disk is a string quartet, that's what the speaker should play. Saying that good speakers aren't suitable for some kinds of (unworthy) music is just silly.

Now, some people have unreasonable expectations about what a rock concert really sounds like. Maybe the only way they have heard the music is in a club where they boost the midbass 10dB. If that's what they are looking for, well, that's why they make EQ.

[johnathanwinter]

A rock concert is mixed to have loud booming bass that fires the crowd up. The usual reference is live unamplified music. Accurate reproduction is usually based on that rather than something that varies depending on the guy running the console and the size of the venue.

Just an FYI since we talked a lot about the Statements, they're based on accuracy.

Jim

yes we have talked alot about the statements, and with the right mode switch im quite sure they could hulk out as well as be accurate. :lol:

(thanks Jim you just gave me an idea towards the finish of the statements.)

[johnathanwinter]

An accurate speaker should accurately play whatever is on the disk. If what's on the disk is a rock concert, what comes out of the speakers should sound like a rock concert. If the disk is a string quartet, that's what the speaker should play. Saying that good speakers aren't suitable for some kinds of (unworthy) music is just silly.

Now, some people have unreasonable expectations about what a rock concert really sounds like. Maybe the only way they have heard the music is in a club where they boost the midbass 10dB. If that's what they are looking for, well, that's why they make EQ.

EQing is where people get into trouble and start blowing drivers. especially when the drivers in their speaker cannot handle the volume cranked to concert level with a 10db boost to the mid. LET THE DISTORTION BEGIN!!! :lol:

im not expecting accurrate here. im expecting a set of speakers for one purpose and one purpose only. to recreate a set of drums in the living room that give enough impact to be able to feel the impact of the drum stick on the tom tom.

(totally off topic, i am finding out just how powerful the silence is when the drums pause. silence is deafening. must have something to do with anticipation.)

[TMadden]

I had a system that would probably meet your needs. A friend commented "I feel like I am sitting inside the drum set!" Movies sound effects would cause a drink to vibrate off the coffee table. Standing near the sub would cause your nose hairs to tickle! You would feel the air in the room moving, the floor shook big time. It was musical and at the same time extremely powerful. Concert in your living room loudness. The system consisted of 6 Dayton 12" woofers in a 24 cu ft vented enclosure built into the corner of the room. This was driven by a 1000 watt amp and electronically crossed over at 50 Hz or so. Low bass would pretty much go subsonic. The two front main speakers were a pair of Madisound 12" woofers in 2 cu ft sealed boxes driven by a Crown CE 2000 (head smackin' punch) + Audax PR170MO, extremely efficient pro mids + Heil AMT tweeters, also very efficient. Mids and tweeters were driven by a Marantz SR-19 reciever and were passively crossed over. Crossover between mid-tweet combo and 12's was Marchand tube type crossover, oh so sweet. Oh how I miss that set-up. Movie sound effects were outragous! Everyone who heard it were stunned!

[johnathanwinter]

I had a system that would probably meet your needs. A friend commented "I feel like I am sitting inside the drum set!" Movies sound effects would cause a drink to vibrate off the coffee table. Standing near the sub would cause your nose hairs to tickle! You would feel the air in the room moving, the floor shook big time. It was musical and at the same time extremely powerful. Concert in your living room loudness. The system consisted of 6 Dayton 12" woofers in a 24 cu ft vented enclosure built into the corner of the room. This was driven by a 1000 watt amp and electronically crossed over at 50 Hz or so. Low bass would pretty much go subsonic. The two front main speakers were a pair of Madisound 12" woofers in 2 cu ft sealed boxes driven by a Crown CE 2000 (head smackin' punch) + Audax PR170MO, extremely efficient pro mids + Heil AMT tweeters, also very efficient. Mids and tweeters were driven by a Marantz SR-19 reciever and were passively crossed over. Crossover between mid-tweet combo and 12's was Marchand tube type crossover, oh so sweet. Oh how I miss that set-up. Movie sound effects were outragous! Everyone who heard it were stunned!

now that sounds like a system that would give drums the impact they deserve. 100db mids. hmmmm, 4 of those per channel push push style in an MTM config. gives ya something to think about. thanks. dont know anything about the heil amt tweeters, seen pictures but dont understand them at all. i couldnt find any parameters either.

(its amazing what i want when i try to quit smoking)