queston re: statements

[johnathanwinter]

a little history first i guess.
ive been looking for a speaker that sounds better to me than my JBL L7s. I havent found what i have been looking for so i guess ill just have to build my own.

the wife has no problem with me building my own as long as it has a side firing 12 inch woofer just like the L7s. Ive been looking at designs for around a year or so ( i dont do anything fast ) and will probably start my build around december this year. So this all lead me to the statements. the reviews have been good to great so i guess this will be the route i go. Now onto my question.

since the wife wants a side firing woofer im thinking about adding a box to the side of the statements and dropping in a 12 inch dayton. probably have it do duty starting from 80 or 60 hz and below. Im just curios how difficult it would be to make a crossover for this single driver. its not going to have to do any real duty as its just a WAF additive that i will make look inspiring. 80 Hz may be to high but it needs to get enough signal to make the woofer move some air.

so what are the thoughts on this?

think of this as a passive sub without the sub... hehehehe.

[Jed]

One of my customers is building a speaker just like that using a modded Dynamic 2T approach. He's going active for the sub crossed around 80hz to the RS180-4s wired in series to net an easy impedance and F3 and Q optimum for integration with the subwoofer. In this case it's 10" but I'm sure a 12" RSS would work as well.

Image not available

[Jim Holtz]

a little history first i guess.
ive been looking for a speaker that sounds better to me than my JBL L7s. I havent found what i have been looking for so i guess ill just have to build my own.

the wife has no problem with me building my own as long as it has a side firing 12 inch woofer just like the L7s. Ive been looking at designs for around a year or so ( i dont do anything fast ) and will probably start my build around december this year. So this all lead me to the statements. the reviews have been good to great so i guess this will be the route i go. Now onto my question.

since the wife wants a side firing woofer im thinking about adding a box to the side of the statements and dropping in a 12 inch dayton. probably have it do duty starting from 80 or 60 hz and below. Im just curios how difficult it would be to make a crossover for this single driver. its not going to have to do any real duty as its just a WAF additive that i will make look inspiring. 80 Hz may be to high but it needs to get enough signal to make the woofer move some air.

so what are the thoughts on this?

think of this as a passive sub without the sub... hehehehe.

A few thoughts.

Subs only work passively if you cross them at 250 Hz. or higher and make them the woofer section of your speaker. Side firing doesn't work above 100 Hz. or so and really needs wall reinforcement to have the deep bass you're looking for. Anything but active on the sub would be a complete crossover redesign.

So, if you choose to build the Statements, the option you have is build them sealed and go active on the sub. They need every inch of the cabinet volume in a ported configuration so adding a sub box would make for an extremely large base and very low WAF. There have been several in this forum that have went the sealed route and it works great. However, all of the Statements series speakers will want a flat wall not closer than about 18" behind the speaker and at least that distance from the side walls to the speaker.

The Statements have very strong bass. I think most folks have found crossing to the sub for home theater between 40-60 Hz. depending on your room, works well. Unless you're into pipe organ or blasting techno, the Statements work extremely well for music with out a sub.

HTH

Jim

[johnathanwinter]

well first thing is; very cool jed. im going to have to look into that. have any more info on it?

second thing is; jim, thanks for the info. im not into pipe music but i do like a little techno i think. is kraftwerk or the mortal combat soundtrack considered techno?

WAF isnt a worry as long as she gets her side firing woofer. she was ok with the 7 foot tall line arrays i was going for a while back until i discovered that actual power of them and realized my neibors wouldnt like me anymore.

active will probably be the way to go to keep it easy. How do you think the statements will pair with an arcam avr350? its a very detailed receiver and may be considered bright.

one more edit, addtional question, how would a rear port effect the statements? would it impair their design any?

[Jed]

well first thing is; very cool jed. im going to have to look into that. have any more info on it?

Here's his build thread: http://clearwave.forumotion.net/dyna...-build-t22.htm

Here's more info:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32454&highlight=dynamic+series

[Jim Holtz]

second thing is; jim, thanks for the info. im not into pipe music but i do like a little techno i think. is kraftwerk or the mortal combat soundtrack considered techno?

WAF isnt a worry as long as she gets her side firing woofer. she was ok with the 7 foot tall line arrays i was going for a while back until i discovered that actual power of them and realized my neibors wouldnt like me anymore.

active will probably be the way to go to keep it easy. How do you think the statements will pair with an arcam avr350? its a very detailed receiver and may be considered bright.

one more edit, addtional question, how would a rear port effect the statements? would it impair their design any?

Actually, what I was implying with the pipe organ/techno comment was about subterranean bass. The Statements have a F3 of 34 Hz with out room gain. Add room gain and you're well into the 20's. I believe your talking about games (I'm not a gamer) so I really can't comment on that.

Just an FYI, linearrays take less power than conventional designs to power to the same SPL. I had linearrays before the Statements.

If the receiver is bright, you'll hear it with about any speaker design in this forum including the Statements. We design for accuracy.

Rear port is just fine.

HTH

Jim

[johnathanwinter]

well some more reading to do now jed. thanks.

i am a little familiar with line arrays. i did a mockup with eight 4 inch drivers and drove them to around 70 db and at that point i found the reflections off the back wall in my living room to image like a seperate speaker. i believe you would call it beaming. it was amazing. I never really understood the awesome power available and the actual sound wave produced by a line array until i did the mock up. But i believe it would have been to powerful a speaker for my condo as it would have beaten my neibors wall to death with very little power supplied.

having a wall of sound like that is awe inspiring. I can only imagine what the real thing would have produced. so now im looking at something a little more (whats the word?) standard, maybe.

[BeerParty]

Another option is to build the Statement Monitors on top of a sub...

You could build a single cabinet with two sections sealed off from each other, the top section would be the Statement Monitors, and the bottom part would be the sub. After a quick check of the specs, the bottom of the monitors would need to be ~22" off the floor to put the tweeter at seated ear height. That should give you enough room for a 12" sealed sub.

With this approach you'll get enough space for the 12" sub and the ported Statement sound without having to have a huge cabinet (and a forklift to move it ). The Statement Monitors are only 12" deep though, so you'll need to alter that to get the right depth for a 12" sub. And if you change the depth of the entire cabinet, you'll need to change the height of the Statement Monitor box to keep the volume correct, so you'll actually have to alter their height. So actually, you could have more than 22" of height for the sub, uh, well, hm.

You did say you were not going to start until December, right? :W

Given some thought, I'm sure the design gods around here ;x( could come up with something.

[Jed]

well some more reading to do now jed. thanks.

You're welcome. :T

[johnathanwinter]

there is an idea beerparty, even though the statements are only 12 inches deep ( i thought that they were like 16 inches deep) that is not a hinderance in anyway. i dont need to build a rectangle. i could make the box any size i wanted on the bottom and then run it up the back of the statements a ways. heck i could even run the subs box up the sides or create a box shaped like an L that the statements would fit into. granted it would have to be set back enough so it wouldnt interfere with the front baffle but that shouldnt be an issue. thinking of lego blocks but with speakers.

oh and yes im not going to be starting anything until december so i have alot of time available.

[johnathanwinter]

just kind of thinking aloud here.
whats it called when you have a single driver in a cabinet that is formed like a long port? a TL? dont know what TL stands for at the moment though. you know like on the statements mids but much longer. can something like that be done with a woofer or is it really only a desgn for full range drivers to be implemented with?

[Curt C]

just kind of thinking aloud here.
whats it called when you have a single driver in a cabinet that is formed like a long port? a TL? dont know what TL stands for at the moment though. you know like on the statements mids but much longer. can something like that be done with a woofer or is it really only a desgn for full range drivers to be implemented with?

Transmission Line. Most generally utilized with woofers, not mids, and will as a general rule require somewhat larger enclosures than their vented brethren. The trick with TL's is how to fold that long line into an acceptable enclosure.

C

[johnathanwinter]

thanks. transmission line. i have just spent the past 20 hours working on a dry-pipe sprinkler system that exploded in two places, a valve blew across the garage and a three inch main didnt want to hold up to the fire pump water pressure. im whooooped.

would a transmission line still work if the line wasnt folded?

[johnathanwinter]

oh and i think i know what you all are thinking... this fool is going to make something unholy out of this great design of a speaker. lol. you may be right.

[Curt C]

would a transmission line still work if the line wasnt folded?

That would be its optimum configuration.

oh and i think i know what you all are thinking... this fool is going to make something unholy out of this great design of a speaker. lol. you may be right.

Its good to think outside of the box. Any established design can be ‘improved upon’, as your preferences for the necessary compromises (required in any design) may be different from the original designer, making it ‘better’ for you, or your situation. If you want to make it into a monster WMTMW TL with a side firing sub woofer, you won’t see me criticizing your ideas. –I’ll just point out the consequences of the design choices with respect to the original design.

C

[johnathanwinter]

If you want to make it into a monster WMTMW TL with a side firing sub woofer

lmao! just the image of that is funny. dont forget the 2 foot horn tweeter. lol.

trying to work around someones design without effecting it seems to me to be almost an impossibility. well ill keep reading and thinking. thanks so far for the info everyone.

[johnathanwinter]

Another question for the statements build.

since the mids are kind of TL based and this a gives better soundstage (?) why wasnt there a tweeter added to the rear? just curios is all. im not trying to second guess any design and/or build.

[Jim Holtz]

Another question for the statements build.

since the mids are kind of TL based and this a gives better soundstage (?) why wasnt there a tweeter added to the rear? just curios is all. im not trying to second guess any design and/or build.

The ribbons provide pristine highs and a rear firing tweeter isn't needed.

Jim

[Jed]

I'd imagine a rear firing tweeter would help in a true dipole configuration, like the Orions for example. An open back midrange (transmission line) is a nice option for eliminating much of the rear wave that otherwise can be reflected back through the cone. Oversized sealed enclosures do much the same thing, minus the added ambiance of a transmission line tunnel, as used in the Statements, provides. Adding a tweeter to add more energy behind the speaker would therefore, IMO, have unpredictable results coupled with the output of the rear wave in a transmission line midrange.

Jed

[exojam]

You should ask about any dispersion issues with the Neo over here and maybe Curt could answer them. He and Wayne designed my speakers that use them.

[johnathanwinter]

thanks for the explanation.

[johnathanwinter]

You should ask about any dispersion issues with the Neo over here and maybe Curt could answer them. He and Wayne designed my speakers that use them.

good idea.

heres another question. since the statements use a ribbon tweeter how is the vertical dispersion of it? would i notice any lack of frequency responce being off the vertical axis?

im curious as adding a center channel speaker using a ribbon tweeter it would seem that it would be difficult to implement due to the lack of vertical dispersion. especially if the tweeter location of the center speaker may not be at ear level since most of the time its located below the screen of a tv.

[johnathanwinter]

here is another question with reguards to the drivers chosen. the fountek ribbon has a sesitivity of about 94bd the tang band mids are rated about 87 db. how did you correct for the different responce for the two? by adding a second tang band mid im guessing your picking up around 3db since your doubling the drivers? and are you then padding the ribbon back a few db in the crossover to compensate between the difference?

Or should i just shut up as i dont know anything about anything?

[exojam]

Below is what Curt and Wayne made for my center channel using the Neo. I had certain specs I needed to watch after regarding size and weight since it has to sit on top of my Mits.

[Jim Holtz]

good idea.

heres another question. since the statements use a ribbon tweeter how is the vertical dispersion of it? would i notice any lack of frequency responce being off the vertical axis?

im curious as adding a center channel speaker using a ribbon tweeter it would seem that it would be difficult to implement due to the lack of vertical dispersion. especially if the tweeter location of the center speaker may not be at ear level since most of the time its located below the screen of a tv.

Actually it's a good question. The Fountek NeoCD3.0 is a relatively short ribbon and has superior horizontal dispersion compared to a one inch done and comparable vertical dispersion. It measures 95 db and does require padding down to mate peoperly with the W4-1337SA mid. That's a normal process in nearly every crossover. The Statements are slightly more sensitive than the Mini's so they don't require quite as much padding. However, it's the bass woofers that determine overall sensitivity of a speaker, not the other drivers. Everything has to come down to match the woofers.

Rule of thumb, you gain 6 DB by paralleling two drivers but half the imppedance. That's why all of the Statements series speakers are considered 4 ohm speakers.

HTH

Jim

[johnathanwinter]

Actually it's a good question. The Fountek NeoCD3.0 is a relatively short ribbon and has superior horizontal dispersion compared to a one inch done and comparable vertical dispersion. It measures 95 db and does require padding down to mate peoperly with the W4-1337SA mid. That's a normal process in nearly every crossover. The Statements are slightly more sensitive than the Mini's so they don't require quite as much padding. However, it's the bass woofers that determine overall sensitivity of a speaker, not the other drivers. Everything has to come down to match the woofers.

Rule of thumb, you gain 6 DB by paralleling two drivers but half the imppedance. That's why all of the Statements series speakers are considered 4 ohm speakers.

HTH

Jim

wow 6db gain. good lord. i think im getting it. if i needed to match the sensitivity of the neo with the woofers that are, lets just say 84 db sensitivity, id have to use like 4 of them. this would make a speaker way to large to put in a room as the volume of a speaker would need to increase so much to support the woofers needs. so its better to just use two or even one of them and bring down the tweet and mid to match the woofer.

and im surprised your still up right now.

[johnathanwinter]

Below is what Curt and Wayne made for my center channel using the Neo. I had certain specs I needed to watch after regarding size and weight since it has to sit on top of my Mits.

that is one different speaker. it looks like the woofer is on the left with the mid on the right? doesnt that effect the sound? i mean wouldnt you pick up more of the mid if your to the right and more bass to the left? but then you dont have to worry about any lobing issues. i think thats what its called is lobing. its a very cool speaker. very interesting design. thats whats so cool about DIY, anything goes.

[exojam]

You are correct, the woofer is on the left and the mid is on the right. Hopefully Curt can chime in on the details of how it works in this manner (but no, there is no change in sound when I move to the left or right).

I all ready had Curt and Wayne make my mains and we used the same mid and tweeter but a Lambda woofer. Since there was no way I could sit a center channel on my TV with 2 12” woofers in it, I asked them to come up with the best solution to my specific needs. So hence we had the Revelator brought in. The design of the center was a compromise as all speakers are but it works fantastic with the mains I have.

[Jed]

The Fountek NeoCD3.0 is a relatively short ribbon and has superior horizontal dispersion compared to a one inch done and comparable vertical dispersion.

Other than the physical properties of the ribbon do you have proof of this? Measurements etc. ?

I'll have to do some more measurements to show that this isn't necessarily the case. I remember doing some off axis measurements of the Fountek when I was designing Frodaddy's CC and noted the Fountek was not much better than a standard dome tweeter in the horizontal and worse in the vertical plane. It does help that the Fountek has a rising top end, that levels out as one goes off axis, however the overall level decrease, as you go off axis, is fairly consistent/ equal compared to a dome tweeter. Which one sounds better is obviously a personal matter- just wanted to point out that some assumptions about the physical properties of ribbons don't always correlate with actual measurements. I wish I had them on hand....

[Jim Holtz]

Other than the physical properties of the ribbon do you have proof of this? Measurements etc. ?

I'll have to do some more measurements to show that this isn't necessarily the case. I remember doing some off axis measurements of the Fountek when I was designing Frodaddy's CC and noted the Fountek was no better than a standard dome tweeter in the horizontal and worse in the vertical plane. It does help that the Fountek has a rising top end, that levels out as one goes off axis, however the overall level decrease, as you go off axis, is fairly consistent/ equal compared to a dome tweeter. Which one sounds better is obviously a personal matter- just wanted to point out that some assumptions about the physical properties of ribbons don't always correlate with actual measurements. I wish I had them on hand....

Hi Jed,

Rick publishes on/off axis measurements for nearly all of his speakers, many with ribbons. Here is a good example. I "think" Rick measures at 30 degrees if I remember correctly.

As far as vertical response is concerned, I think saying a Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon is roughly comparable to a one inch dome is essentially what you just said. If a dome has more vertical dispersion, it's very little in actual listening.

EDIT: Jed, I read your post wrong so I'm editing my response. Sorry if you read it before I edited it. I was giving my standard ribbon lecture.

Jim

[Rick Craig]

Other than the physical properties of the ribbon do you have proof of this? Measurements etc. ?

I'll have to do some more measurements to show that this isn't necessarily the case. I remember doing some off axis measurements of the Fountek when I was designing Frodaddy's CC and noted the Fountek was not much better than a standard dome tweeter in the horizontal and worse in the vertical plane. It does help that the Fountek has a rising top end, that levels out as one goes off axis, however the overall level decrease, as you go off axis, is fairly consistent/ equal compared to a dome tweeter. Which one sounds better is obviously a personal matter- just wanted to point out that some assumptions about the physical properties of ribbons don't always correlate with actual measurements. I wish I had them on hand....

I've used the CD3 in several designs and the off-axis response is more extended than a 1" dome - the measurements verify it. The horn loading from the faceplate and magnets change the horizontal pattern but it still is better than a 1" dome above 10K. Vertically the domes are better (horn loading on the ribbon plus the length beyond 1") but at normal listening distances I haven't had any complaints. The lobe from the crossover can have some bearing on that as well.

[Jed]

EDIT: Jed, I read your post wrong so I'm editing my response. Sorry if you read it before I edited it. I was giving my standard ribbon lecture.

Jim

Jim, for the sake of showing some measurements of the Air Circ for conversational purposes... and I hope this isn't getting off topic, just want some more fruitful discussion:

System with dome tweeter:

So to start things off, here's the On Axis FR:

Image not available

15 Degrees off axis in the horizontal plane:

Image not available

45 Degrees off axis in the horizontal plane:

Image not available

15 Degrees off axis in the vertical plane:

Image not available

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jed,

No argument that the 6600 is one of the the finest domes currently on the market. It should be for the price. :roll:

Speaking of money, the 6600 is $220 the last time I looked and the Fountek NeoCD3.0 is $89. I'd have to really be in love with a tweeter to pay that much. Of course, I also have to point out that designs with RIBBONS took top honors in the unlimited and mid classes at the 2007 Iowa DIY event. No 6600's were there in 2007 but there was a Millennium design. :W

How many DB is that design down at 20K measured 30 degrees off axis?

Jim

[johnathanwinter]

what is the name of the 6600? would like to find it on the web.

[Jed]

what is the name of the 6600? would like to find it on the web.

Scan Speak Air Circ 6600. I use it in my Duet10, Minuet5 designs.

And Jim,

I used the graphs above as evidence to back my statements that the ribbon is not "superior" off axis. They are comparable in the measurements with the edge maybe going to the ribbon in the horizontal plane, but vertical is another matter with the edge going to the dome. If I had a $90 dome tweeter on hand to do this test I would do it now (to be fair from a money perspective), but I think I made my point. I wasn't talking about subjective listening tests or which one I prefer- just plain old dispersion characteristics.

[johnathanwinter]

been looking at drivers.
looking at the frequency response graphs of each of these two drivers
SEAS Excel W15LY-001 http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1595
Dayton RS150S-8 http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-362s.pdf
i would say the seas has a flatter better response hense a better driver. am i right about this? also looking at the graphs it looks like the seas would be more user freindly over a wider spectrum than the dayton. am i right about this also?

[johnathanwinter]

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/scanspeak/D3004_660000.pdf

30 degrees off axis that driver just drops off like a rock. thats the way it looks to me with the graph anyway. but during normal listening that same 30 degrees at six foot away really covers a lot of ground. so just how meaningful is being 30 degrees off axis. i guess that would only really play into the sweet spot and how large of a sweet spot you can get.

But... just my ideas coming from a newbie with no experience so id say im 95% wrong on my ideas reguarding that driver. But that driver is sweet.

[Jim Holtz]

Scan Speak Air Circ 6600. I use it in my Duet10, Minuet5 designs.

And Jim,

I used the graphs above as evidence to back my statements that the ribbon is not "superior" off axis. They are comparable in the measurements with the edge maybe going to the ribbon in the horizontal plane, but vertical is another matter with the edge going to the dome. If I had a $90 dome tweeter on hand to do this test I would do it now (to be fair from a money perspective), but I think I made my point. I wasn't talking about subjective listening tests or which one I prefer- just plain old dispersion characteristics.

Hi Jed,

I know exactly what your point is. I believe we agree that ribbons do provide more off axis horizontal dispersion than one inch domes. I believe the word superior would be a normal adjective used to describe those differences since it means better than. Isn't that correct?

I'll also agree that a one inch dome has slightly or "superior" vertical off axis dispersion than the NeoCD3.0. However, that is usually compensated for in the crossover lobe so the differences are unnoticeable.

So my point to the original poster in response to his question about the ribbons used in the Statements was an accurate response, IMHO. It seems we're spending a lot of time talking about domes in a Statements thread. There will never be a Statements design with a dome tweeter. If it has a dome, it's not a Statement.

Jim

[Jed]

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF...004_660000.pdf

30 degrees off axis that driver just drops off like a rock.
.

It's down only 4dbs. The red curve is 60 degress off axis and even that curve is exceptional for a 1 inch dome.

I posted my measurements as further evidence in the real world application.

[Jed]

Jim, are you kidding? Superior does not imply "slightly better." It means it is better by a large amount, and not even comparable. I'm correcting your inaccurate analysis of dome tweeter dispersion versus ribbons. I'd do it in any thread where information is questionable.

By the way this isn't an attack on ribbons. I like ribbons and used them in the R4 and R44 designs featured here at htguide.

[Jed]

I've used the CD3 in several designs and the off-axis response is more extended than a 1" dome - the measurements verify it. The horn loading from the faceplate and magnets change the horizontal pattern but it still is better than a 1" dome above 10K. Vertically the domes are better (horn loading on the ribbon plus the length beyond 1") but at normal listening distances I haven't had any complaints. The lobe from the crossover can have some bearing on that as well.

Rick, that's exactly what I said originally (minus the subjectivity comments).

Fountek CD3.0- marginally better in the horizontal plane, not as good in the vertical plane.

[Jim Holtz]

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF...004_660000.pdf

30 degrees off axis that driver just drops off like a rock. thats the way it looks to me with the graph anyway. but during normal listening that same 30 degrees at six foot away really covers a lot of ground. so just how meaningful is being 30 degrees off axis. i guess that would only really play into the sweet spot and how large of a sweet spot you can get.

But... just my ideas coming from a newbie with no experience so id say im 95% wrong on my ideas reguarding that driver. But that driver is sweet.

I'd suggest you not get too hung up on off axis dispersion. Jed and I were debating semantics. Jed's graphs show that off axis dispersion is not only a function of the driver but also the crossover design and he's done an excellent job of taking that into consideration in his design.

The Statements are designed to be listened to off axis. Curt designed them that way at my request. I've never liked the sound stage of toed in speakers. Anyway, all of the Statements series speakers have the best response at 15-20 degrees off axis which is perfect for normal listening distances with the Statements positioned pointing straight into the listening area.

We endlessly debate the differences in drivers and agonize over mostly minor differences in distortion and performance on this forum. The fact of the matter is, as a "newbie" selecting a design to build, I'd suggest you focus on the sound of the speaker and how well it fits your needs rather than dwell on driver measurements. The crossover designers choice in voicing the speaker as well as his combination of crossover topology will have a far greater impact on how the speaker sounds than minor driver differences. Whatever you decide to build, check out the comments by previous builders to get a sense of how the speaker sounds in comparison to other known speakers.

Good luck in your pursuit.

Jim

[johnathanwinter]

There will never be a Statements design with a dome tweeter. If it has a dome, it's not a Statement.

Jim

jim really the way i look at it is if there are ANY changes to the statement design as in changing the drivers, crossover, box volume, it is no longer a 'statement', with the exception of ported and sealed designs that have already been taken into account. those i look at as statements version .1 and version .2 .

but as a newbie its a good thing to discuss the different characteristics of drivers and such.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim, are you kidding? Superior does not imply "slightly better." It means it is better by a large amount, and not even comparable. I'm correcting your inaccurate analysis of dome tweeter dispersion versus ribbons. I'd do it in any thread where information is questionable.

By the way this isn't an attack on ribbons. I like ribbons and used them in the R4 and R44 designs featured here at htguide.

Whoa Jed! Calm down. Sorry you don't like my choice of words, but I didn't realize that I needed to be concerned whether you approved or not.

I wasn't attempting to mislead anyone nor was I dissing any other driver or design. I'm completely at ease with my analysis even though you aren't.

Lets agree to disagree before Thomas locks the thread and gives us both a "talking to". :rofl:

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

but as a newbie its a good thing to discuss the different characteristics of drivers and such.

No quibbles on diving in if you want to learn more. However, you might want to start a new thread focused on measured and perceived driver differences you're interested in rather than continue with the discussion here. It started as a request for information about the Statements but has evolved into a driver discussion.

Good luck!

Jim