Beginning with Front Towers - opinions wanted

[crazyjpeters]

I've been lurking for a while here, after deciding awhile back that the DIY route was the way to go.

I'm intending to eventually build my way into a 5.1 or 6.1 (potentially minus the .1) system, driving it with a Yamaha RX-V1 (got a smoking deal on it). The two(ish) designs that I've pared my list down to are:

1) Modula/Natalie-P (both have nice XOs, but I may implement RJB's 2.5 as middle ground between the two)
2) Zaph ZDT-3.5

Yes, I'm aware of the forum that I am asking this question of, but how do these compare? My wife and I are about 50/50 HT/music, if it matters. I'd say the room is 10ft x 30ft, but the HT is setup at the end, across the short wall (probably not ideal, but not much choice either).

If I can avoid it, I'll skip the sub. I thought also, if I did some Nat-P/Modulas, I'd try the TL enclosure in the Nat-P thread to firm up the bass. As the title states, I'll be starting with fronts, and maybe do a center if funds allow (aka if SAF is high - maybe she'll even let me do some MT surrounds!)

BTW, anyone own an RX-V1? Capable enough?

Cheers,
Jason

[cjd]

Biggest problem may be impedance with the Yamaha. Don't know, I'm too impatient to go look up its 4ohm performance.

All of these designs are very good, with a 3way (or 3.5) having a small edge (and perhaps MUCH better center channel options). And the TL for the Nat-P will work perfectly for any pair of RS180S-8's (including Zaph's). They'll voice match pretty well also I suspect, so Modula MT surrounds and ZDT mains... however you want to go.

For movies especially I recommend a sub. You just can't get the low frequency stuff. I cross at 70Hz on my HT mains (which use the RS180 in a 3-way setup as the woofer). They offer quite full bass if your music doesn't go low (eg organ/symphonic) and even then may make you quite happy.

[crazyjpeters]

Well, in 1995? it was their flagship, and according to literature, does 110w/ch RMS at 8ohm (I think it tested to 133 though), 180w/ch at 6ohm, 240w/ch at 4ohm, and 340w/ch at 2ohm (though I'm not foolish enough to go there). It's a 6.1 receiver with a couple of Yamaha only 35W "effects" channels to add to the 6.1 (weird yamaha thing), and I assume has an alright amp section, as it weighs 66lbs.

Do you think it would be wise to build a couple of front towers, and build a sub alongside, rather than a center right away? Then leave the center and rears for a future project?

Noob question: TL design - do the dimensions/design change much depending on the choice of ZDT/nat-p/modula? Is it primarily designed to the bass/mid-bass? I really know nothing about them other than a few posts I've read, and the design proposed in the nat-p thread.

[ThomasW]

Instead of messing around with a TL trying to get lows out of smallish midwoofers, build bass bins. These can be integrated into a tower design or done as stands for a bookshelf sized MTM and would allow you to skip the sub...

This is an example of this concept...

http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM-2.00-MTM-Sub.pdf

[crazyjpeters]

Actually, that's not a bad idea. The amp is more than capable (I think) and I could put some Dayton reference woofers in it. Drivers aren't terribly expensive.

How "amplifier intensive" are Chris' RS 3-ways? I read a 3-ohm nominal, which I don't think I'm comfy with. Also, how pricey did these end up being without the boxes?

On second thought, people really seem to love those Nat-P and Modula designs. I think I may just bite the bullet and build the RJB XO version Modula/Nat-P and if it's not enough, build a sub for it.

[crazyjpeters]

On further investigation, I'm gonna have to add in the RS-TMWW as a very strong potential candidate. Though I can't seem to find much in the way of comparison for such a long build thread.

For those who have listened to it, does it blow the Nat-P out of the water, or is it just a different design that's good in different ways?

[ThomasW]

People who have compared the RJB XO to Jon's have indicated they preferred Jon's.

The 3-way tower only has a RS-150 covering the upper midrange where as a MTM with a bass bin has a pair of larger driver covering this area.

If you want a a more sophisticated 3-way tower look at Curt's Statements...

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28728

[---k---]

If you want a a more sophisticated 3-way tower look at Curt's Statements...
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28728

HEY! You're always pimping Curt's Statements. Where's the love for me and CJD?

[crazyjpeters]

Not that I wouldn't love Curts' Statements, but I can hear my wife's disapproval at the pricetag. Maybe Khanspire's?

[ThomasW]

You hadn't mentioned a budget and Modula MTM's aren't exactly cheap .... yes if the budget is tight the Khanspires are a good choice for a 3-way tower.

[---k---]

Actually, I believe that price difference between the Khans and the Statements isn't that great. Jim has an 12/8/08 updated BOM listing the price as $727 / pair. When I did the Khan's back in Feb, the price was $650 /pair and I know from ordering the drivers for the IN-Khans that the prices have gone way up.

Since he is wanting to skip the sub, if budget is low, I'm thinking the original RS TMWW might be the one. All options are good. There is another thread very similar to this one which suggested Jed's Clearwave's M5W kit. That might be a real nice solution too.

[crazyjpeters]

Between Khanspire's, the RS-TMWW, and the RS-3way, I think it will come down to budget as a deciding factor. Considering that my current speakers (some Sony POS speakers left over from my wife's last mini-system that bought the farm) are an insult to my ears and my receiver, I doubt I will be unimpressed by any of the three.

Out of curiosity, has anyone heard HECO's, and where do they rank in the universe of home theater?

[crazyjpeters]

The TMWW looks nice enough, though I'm concerned with the single mid. If the midrange is dull, I'd rather spend a bit and go for the statements or Khanspire's. I'm just going for best bang-for-buck.

For someone that isn't constantly listening to speakers, am I wasting my time with them over a Nat-P? Should my time be spent on a full set of HT bookshelfs?

[---k---]

Jim Holtz has heard both the DM TMWW and the NatP's, and if I remember right he said they sounded very very similar.

There are tradeoffs. A three way places much less demand on the mid, since it doesn't have to do bass. However, the NatP has two larger midranges. I think you're splitting hairs.

If you're going to have a sub, that will benefit the NatP.

I would build the cheaper speaker, because no matter what you build you'll want to build something better next year. Leave yourself some room to upgrade.

[cjd]

How "amplifier intensive" are Chris' RS 3-ways? I read a 3-ohm nominal, which I don't think I'm comfy with. Also, how pricey did these end up being without the boxes?

Quick note: if your amp is rated to 2ohm, it will be fine with these. And if you want to go "no sub" they're a good option, IMO. However, they're also not cheap, and a bit on the tricky side for crossover. I'd guess they're ~$1200 in parts these days, though that could be wrong.

[crazyjpeters]

Well, nothing against my wife, but she's a tight-wad, and frankly, she's got the last say on "home projects". So it was a bit of a shock to me when she gave me the go-ahead on this. If I build any, I almost wonder whether I'll be building any more! If they seriously impress her, then maybe if I can give her a reason to go ahead with more.

If I build some impressive mains, that satisfy my long term music listening, I might build some surround/center to satisfy my HT goals.

If I build some cheaper mains, and move them to the back, I'd need to convince her there was a reason to keep building more speakers. I wonder if the first situation would be better, as I can put off my HT goals for a while, if I have really good mains.

Hmm. sorry for all the waffling. This should be an easier decision.



I think the big 3-way is right out of my league now. I'm not looking to spend more than ~700 on drivers and crossover parts for the mains.

What's nominal resistance for the statements, Khanspire's and RS-TMWWs?

[cjd]

My MTM may also be an option as you could either recycle drivers into a larger speaker, or move them back to surrounds. Buildable sealed, ported, tower, bookshelf... not quite as budget as they once were but definitely not as bad as some.

C

[---k---]

What's nominal resistance for the statements, Khanspire's and RS-TMWWs?

4 ohms.

[Jed]

My Dynamic Series (4T, and 2T) and Lineup Maxx are both 8 ohm speakers. For the 2T I use to RS180-4s in series to net 8ohms.

[crazyjpeters]

Well, that's good, so I'm not really limited by impedance on any of the designs. The yammi can handle 4ohms fine.

[crazyjpeters]

Jim Holtz has heard both the DM TMWW and the NatP's, and if I remember right he said they sounded very very similar.

There are tradeoffs. A three way places much less demand on the mid, since it doesn't have to do bass. However, the NatP has two larger midranges. I think you're splitting hairs.

If you're going to have a sub, that will benefit the NatP.

I would build the cheaper speaker, because no matter what you build you'll want to build something better next year. Leave yourself some room to upgrade.

Well, my problem is that I'm cheap, a perfectionist, and a little OCD, so splitting hairs / waffling is what I do best. Feel free to ignore me at any time, I'll understand.

[cjd]

Ok. So you go all out, and do this once. That's it.

We round over our brace cut-outs, ok? So no talking about OCD and stuff... I should add, I'm also both cheap (or rather, I don't like spending money twice) and very much a perfectionist.

Big towers! BIG... BIIIIIGGGGG. You can never go back once it's all done and that money spent...

[Jim Holtz]

Somehow I missed this thread over the holidays. I see my name was mentioned a few times so I'll clarify some things. I have heard the Khanspires and have built the Dennis Murphy version of the Seas RS 3-ways, the Natalie P's and the Modula M/T's.

To compare those speakers since they're all basically based on the same drivers, I found the Modula M/T and Natalie P's very similar with a slight edge to the Modula M/T due to my personal preference for Seas tweeters. The RS 3-ways and Khans also sound very similar with the main difference being in voicing and overall dynamics should be a bit greater with the Khans due to multiple mids. Again, I lean toward the Seas tweeter in the RS 3-ways. Also, I really like Dennis's voicing. I think Dennis and Curt went to the same voicing school.

Next, the new BOM for the Statements came in at a little over $800 for the pair, $650 for the Mini's and $500 for the Monitors. The Statements center went up to $325. These are all from memory. My C: drive crashed and my most recent back up was 3 weeks old which was before I updated the BOM's. I hope Curt still has the new updated ones. 8O

None of these speakers will give you a home theater experience with out a sub. I think Thomas had a great idea to use the Natalie P's with a bass bin. Personally, if I didn't need the extra SPL capability of the MTM, I'd build the Modula M/T's and a nice sub. Chris's MTM works very well as center.

Actually, I just described the system I built for one of my sons. He is still very happy with it. It's an excellent budget system.

My $.02 worth...

Jim

[Jed]

Well, my problem is that I'm cheap, a perfectionist, and a little OCD, so splitting hairs / waffling is what I do best. Feel free to ignore me at any time, I'll understand.

Problem? I think we're all like that around here.