Jim Holtz

Notice pricing has increased for all the designs in this section of the forum. People should use the BOM's and check with suppliers for current prices

The Statements are a ported W-M/T/M-W design based on Dayton RS225 woofers, Tangband W4-1337S Titanium mids and a Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter. The mids are an open backed transmission line design.

The Statements project is a collaborative design with Jim Holtz, Curt Campbell and Wayne Wendel as it's creators.

Curt has the design documented on his webpage
http://speakerdesignworks.com/

Larger pdf versions of the graphics are available here
http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Statementsautocadlayout.pdf



Sealed Statements Cabinet PDF









Updated BOM( 1-1-2010 )

Links to builder's photo gallery pages
http://picasaweb.google.com/tpremo5...ments_Web_Album

Sefferdog

Jim,

When do we get to see all the gory details? The crossover, enclosure design, etc...

Jim Holtz

They're hot off the presses so to speak and the design information hasn't been put into a form for posting yet. Curt is going to post the design on his website http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/index.html when everything is finalized.

Sorry for the enticement without all the details but they will be forthcoming.

Jim

Sefferdog

That is the best way to do it, whip us into a froth then let 'er rip.

Thanks very much for sharing with us. Looks like a very, very interesting project. One I am sure I will be building in the near future.!

engr_dave

Perfect! I can't wait for the details.

I've really enjoyed my WMTMW Dynaudios but would like to see if I can build something better. This looks like just the ticket. Thanks Jim

Jonasz

Wow!

These would work great as a pair of high end bedroom-HT speakers! At least they would look just awesome in our bedroom and my wife is a rare gem that love big speakers.

Do you know how much space is needed behind them due to the open mids? Any estimate on total cost?

Jim Holtz

Hi Jonaz,

Finally, questions I can answer. The total cost of drivers and crossover parts was right at $720. That included Mills resistors, Jantzen caps and Jantzen inductors everywhere except for the large value on the RS225's which is an Erse.

Curt designed them to work 1 1/2 - 2 feet from the back wall. I'm sure more would be better but that is a limitation in my listening room that I have to live with. Actual cabinet foot print is 11 1/2" W x 16" D x 55" T with a 3" tall base and 2 1/4" tall spikes. Total height is right at 5'. That equals 101 liters for the RS225's.

Hopefully, we can get the details put together over the next week for posting.

HTH

Jim

Jim Holtz

I added an additional link to the 1st post which is a further explanation of the effect of the di-pole mid design on the frequency response.

Jim

fjhuerta

Jim, thank you very much!

The combination of W4-1337s and 225's sound interesting, as I'm facing a similar situation, and the RS125's I have don't seem to be the best driver I could use.

__________________
Javier Huerta

JonMarsh

Dang Jim, I was hoping to see some cool cabinet pictures- you know me, especially when you mention "open back mid".

It will be interesting to see how I fare when I get around to the M10ta, for which the (currently) first tirals will be with the 1337S and NeoCD2. Looks like Curt's got a pretty nice BBC dip engineered in there.

Bet you can't wait to hear them!

~Jon

__________________
the AudioWorx
_______________________________

Modula MT
M8ta
Modula Neo D CC
Ardent
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme


still coming in 2010....

Ardent Cxi (updated design, new woofers)
Ardent CCX (Compact Center Xtreme)

Jim Holtz

Jon,

Just for you, here's a construction picture. Not very informative and it reveals my meager woodworking skills but it does show what I did. There is a corresponding opening in the back baffle of the cabinet for each mid. I'll make a small grill to cover the rear openings.

Curt explained the large BBC curve in this post.

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=350722

It's due to the way he measured and the di-pole effect on the measurements. I'm not a crossover guy so I can't comment further but it does appear that di-pole mixed with monopole does increase design complexity.

Yes, I can't wait to hear them! Tomorrows the day. After extensive listening, it'll be time to make the cabinets pretty.

Jim

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WillyD

Sweet design Jim. Looking forward to your thoughts and the final design being posted.

Davey

Open mids? I guess I'm not seeing it in the photo. Those long tunnels don't have backs?

Cheers,

Davey.

Jim Holtz

Correct. This is not your typical open back or di-pole design where it is open everywhere but the baffle. That type of speaker just doesn't fit my lifestyle or listening room.

The goal with the open back/transmission line or what ever you want to call it was simply to open up the mids and give it a bit more spacious sound with out the requirement of placement far away from the walls. It does seem that even with just the back of the cabinet being open, it does have the 4.8 db increase from the rear wave.

Jim

Curt C

These started out a Tline mid design, with the idea that the lines would be stuffed. However, in listening to them I was more enamored with them when the lines were merely lined. Stuffing just took all of the life out of them. Then came to listen to the first iteration of the crossover, and -Whoops! Where'd all that extra midrange energy come from? -Oh, yeah... Those holes in the back. -So much for relying on gated measurments to pick up the extra energy.


I'll try to get some addtional plots and networks posted tonight, and I'm very interested in hearing Jim's impressions tomorrow.

C

Davey

I think it's a stretch to label those "dipole," but, okay.

Also, what does it mean that an open back speaker or dipole "doesn't fit my lifestyle or listening room?"

Davey.

Jim Holtz

Davey,

LOL! I think we've discussed this before so I'm not going down that road. My comment wasn't meant in a disparaging way at all. I simply can't have speakers 3' from the sidewalls and 4'-6' from the back wall with nothing in between like my big screen TV. It simply doesn't work for me. I have just as big of priority on home theater as I do music and my standards for home theater are very, very high. Dynamics that scare you are a requirement. Not many speaker designs that also excel on music have that ability.

Jim

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Curt C

I don't think anyone here is calling them dipoles, but they do exhibit at least one dipole-like attribute: They have a gain of roughly 4.8 dB on axis over a monopole design.

The mid enclosures could more accurately be described as an unstuffed transmission line with a taper of 1. In this application, the acoustic resistance of the line and foam lining of the walls will affect an acoustic low pass filter, modifying the rear response and resultant radiation pattern. Standing waves will be also effect the rear acoustic response. Certainly the radiation pattern will be closer to cardioid rather than dipolar. It seems to me that in this instance, the dispersion pattern comes closer to correlating with a monopole woofer and tweeter than a true dipole mid would.

C

Davey

Mine do. And they're full dipoles

(No, not the ones in my avatar. Those are for music only.)

Davey.

Undefinition

Where on earth do you have room for all these speakers? I saw your entries at last year's Iowa DIY, then your avatars... now these beautiful monstrosities. How do you do it, man? What's your secret? I've only got a couple of projects around, and already my family and [future] in-laws are asking, "Where are you going to put all these speakers?"

I don't have much of an answer except, "I dunno. YOu want a pair?"

CraigJ

So do my Isiris Juniors.

Craig

Jim Holtz

Oh sure! You had to bring that up! Just kidding.

(ahem) My speaker inventory did grow a bit but I have been selling them recently and am actually starting to get low on speakers, by my standards anyway. I still have the Modula M/T's and RS 3-ways for sale but have someone coming to look at them next week for a home theater system.

Just remind your future in-laws that speaker building keeps you off the streets and out of the bars. The Statements will probably be my only build this year unless I sell the Modulas which are replacing the Natalie P's in my daughters room. I'll have to build her something. No, she can't have the Statements or my line arrays in her room. I don't care how much she cries and pouts.

Jim

sprtfan

Doh, don't make me feel guilty about buying the Natalie P's Glad to see some more information on the Statements and can't wait to hear your impressions of them. Hopefully I will be able to build a pair for when I finish my theater room and keep the Nat P's for the family room.

Jim Holtz

Ha! It's only fair to warn you that my daughter is a brown belt and may "chop" you when you walk in. Just kidding of course.

She likes to have new things and knows that I'll build her something else if the Modula's go too. I'm looking forward to getting togeter with you and Ryan.

Jim

PoorboyMike

So how do they sound Jim?

The suspense is killing me.

Jim Holtz

Sorry, I didn't mean to keep everyone in suspense. My initial impression is that they are reference quality. However, I want to get the "real" crossovers in place and the speakers wired up with them in my system for a few days before I give a real opinion. I will say that Curt did a spectacular job on the crossover, IMHO. Everything sounds just right!

I'm going to be comparing them to my linearrays and the RS 3-ways so the standards will be high. Just a sample of what's to come, the transmission line mids create a really seductive soundstage. Very nice!

More to come in a few days....

Jim

CraigJ

Jim,

I'm excited about your new design. Please tell us more, daily?

Craig

Jim Holtz

Craig,

I'm sorry but I don't have much to report today. My wife is on vacation and we spent the day shopping for flowers etc. and working in the yard. We live in the country on a one acre plot that is nearly all landscaped so spring is a very busy time outside.

I have the crossovers assembled and almost have the 1st speaker wired up but thats it. I'm anxious to get them in the listening room for some quality listening time too but it's been tough to steal much time away today. Very, very soon I hope.

The short time I was at Curt's listening was extremely positive and I'm really looking forward to getting them in my system.

Jim

Jed

any updates Jim? Pics?

I've enjoyed WMTMW speakers in the past and wondered if you perceive any advantages of the arrangement from a subjective and objective point of view; especially after comparing it to your WWMTs.

Jim Holtz

I finally was able to spend some quality listening time with the Statements this week. I’ll try and be coherent and not too “flowery” in my descriptions so it’ll make some sense. Just a reminder that these are “my opinions” so YMMV. The Statements are a new open backed speaker design that Curt Campbell and I came up with that is based on (2) RS225 woofers, (2) Tangband W4-1337S mids and a Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter in a W-M/T/M-W configuration. Total driver and crossover cost came in at $713.

Imaging and presentation: Since the Statements are a quasi transmission line/open back/di-pole design or whatever terminology you want to hang on them, there is a lot of rear energy coming out of the mids from the holes I cut. So, call it what you like, the imaging is superb. Very large and atmospheric sounding with huge amounts of detail. Performers begin at the rear of the speakers and go back in layers, creating a very deep soundstage. Actually the soundstage has an almost “nearfield listening” sound quality to it with the soundstage going well beyond the speakers frequently. No “head in the vice” sweet spot either. The speakers disappear as they should.

Treble: Cymbals sound like cymbals and the sound of triangles float in the air. Love or hate ribbons but they do a better job of realistically reproducing the highs to my ears than any other type of tweeter. The highs are open and airy with great horizontal off axis dispersion.

Mid range: Here’s where the Statements really shine. The W4’s are ultra clear and detailed. It’s almost eerie when you first listen to them. My line arrays have been the most detailed speakers I‘ve ever heard until now. The Statements are now are my new standard. The W4 Titanium cones simply allow you to hear every nuance in the recording. Everything from the performer licking their lips to shifts in where they’re standing are audible. Obviously it takes really good recordings to hear these things but the Statements are up to the task. Tonal balance is exceptional. Very, very real sounding to my ears. Some of the thoughts that crossed my mind as I listened were smooth and refined sounding but huge amounts of detail.

Vocals: WOW! Vocals are simply stunning! Both male and female vocals are super smooth and textured with perfect tonality to my ears. I think Curt used the word seductive describing vocals and I agree completely.

Dynamics: This was a huge surprise to me. I’ve been spoiled with the dynamics of my line arrays and have had doubts that a point source speaker could ever come close to the level they provide. The Statements are so darn close in this regard that I don’t feel anything is missing. It is another WOW experience.

Bass: The bass capability of dual RS225’s in a well tuned ported enclosure are well known. Very deep, tight bass that is extremely clean. F3 came out about 30 Hz so there is nothing missing in the music I listen to. If you’re in to pipe organ a sub might be necessary, but other than that, bass is abundant and the kind of clean tight bass that allows you to hear the string vibrations of an acoustic bass, yet still have enough kick down low to feel the bass hit your chest when appropriate.

Summary: If you’re in love with detail and realism like I am, the Statements fill the bill. People have been asking how I compared them to the RS 3-ways. IMHO, the Statements are your next project. The W4’s easily exceed the clarity and detail of the RS drivers, or dare I say, Seas Excels, and offer a very transparent sound quality. Bass is comparable to the RS 3-ways of course. Treble, well, I love ribbons so it’s a hands down winner in that respect for me.

A few words about the crossover and crossover designer The best drivers in the world will sound like crap with a poor crossover and the poorest drivers can sound quite nice with a good crossover. This is where Curt worked his magic. The W-M/T/M-W open back design turned out to be challenging and the transition from a 4” mid to an 8” woofer also complicated things a bit it seems. However, Curt over came the obstacles and did an absolute superb job of selecting the right slopes and crossover points to blend the drivers seamlessly. The sound is smooth and coherent but still offering just the right amount of “bite” when it should be there. This is a very, very musical speaker, to use that terminology, but never lacking in detail or clarity. Wayne Wendell with his extremely sharp ears, became the official voicing expert on the project. Wayne and Curt spent many hours tweaking and adjusting the crossover to get it sounding “just right”. A huge thank you to both for the superb job they did on this design. Kudos to Curt and Wayne! Excellent job!

You’ve probably figured out that I like the Statements a lot. It’s a large (tall) speaker but not hard to build and the sound quality is very special, IMHO. Like I said in the beginning, these are my opinions so YMMV. You can rest assured that the Statements will get thoroughly vetted at a DIY event or two before the year is over. That’ll either validate my comments or prove I’m deaf.

Jim

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Sefferdog

Fantastic review! I am very excited to see the details come out regarding this latest design from you and Curt. I have the woofs and mids on hand now, just need the tweets.

---k---

Jim, very cool. People like you are constantly making me rethink what I'm going to build next. Thanks.

I see in your post that you have them pulled away from the walls. How/if does the sound change if you move them back closer to the rear wall, like where your line arrays are? I'm thinking about the magic from that open back.

__________________
-Ryan
The Sietecerocero Project! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW

cjd

Jim Holtz

Hi Ryan,

Yep, I try to promote "speaker building addiction" every chance I get.

They're sitting about 30" from the back wall due to all of the other "stuff" behind them. However, Curt designed them to be used 1 1/2' - 2' from the back wall. Curt does have a large heavy ornamental blanket hung behind where the speakers sit in his development room which probably influences the image somewhat. The image sounds the same in my room as it did Curt's. They're very flexible placement wise which was one of my prime criteria when we started the development process. I wish I could bring them out further but it just doesn't work in my room.

Jim