Lineup D44 with bass bins

[PoorboyMike]

I'm getting ready to start my basement theater and I'm trying to decide what to use for my front sound stage. I have enough parts on hand to do 3 sealed D44's, just trying to figure out what to use for bass bins. (these will be behind an AT screen). My top 2 candidates are the RS315HF and RS390HF, both of which would appear to work OK up to around a 350 hz xover.

My question is, do you think the 390's would be overkill compared to the output potential of the D44s? I want lots of mid-bass impact but I also want the midrange/top-end to be able to keep up.(The bass bins will be crossed at 80hz to 4 Fi IB18.)

The room itself is a little over 10ft wide and about 18ft deep, depending on where I put the front false wall.

I'll be powering the D44s with an Emotiva XPA-5, not sure yet on the bassbins. I was thinking an XPA-3, but I can save a little money by using a couple of Nady XA-900s.

Anyone have any suggestions or advice?

[---k---]

If my modeling is correct, 2 RS270 would have more output potential than a single RS315 or RS390. The frequency response of the RS270 is quite a bit flatter. At the current pricing, 2 RS270 (2x$65=$130) is about the same less than one RS315 and less than one RS390. I think I would go with 2 RS270s per box.

I'm not going to comment on whether this much bass is overkill. Who knows? Maybe you could get by with 1 RS270 in each, but what fun is that. I guess to answer that, you should model 1 RS270 (or 6 db less than what is shown) and compare it to 2 TB W4-1337s.

[---k---]

I should let Jed answer how much power the D44 will take. Unibox is showing me that a pair of sealed W4s with 2x100W will put max out around 99db. Seems low? So, that would indicate that 1 RS270 would still have more output potential with 100W.

This of course assumes I'm thinking correctly, which shouldn't be assumed.

[Jed]

My suggestion is to HP the D44s at around 100-125hz with a 2nd order electrical network (plus the 2nd order acoustic response = 4th order acoustic) and rolll in the Sub at around the same Fc with a 4th order acoustic LP slope. By 100hz, the D44 will be about 6db down, along with the subwoofer's response for proper summing of the system. This way you should be able to get over 108dbs with the system. The little W4s will quickly run out of xmax if allowed to run fullrange, as Ryan suggested.

[Johnloudb]

I agree with Jed.

I just want to let you all know I'm still alive and our home didn't get blown up. A semi truck towing 2 propane tanks turned over and started leaking propane on the interstate directly 2 blocks below our home. They evacuated everyone within a half mile of the site overnight.

Trucks crash at that off ramp all the time. You'd think they'd put up some warning signs telling them "slow down" or "sharp corner ahead." They never do.

My life's not worth a new thread - I hope you all don't mind me posting here. Just had to say something.

[PoorboyMike]

Don't mind a bit John! Glad you and your family are safe.

I agree with Jed.

I just want to let you all know I'm still alive and our home didn't get blown up. A semi truck towing 2 propane tanks turned over and started leaking propane on the interstate directly 2 blocks below our home. They evacuated everyone within a half mile of the site overnight.

Trucks crash at that off ramp all the time. You'd think they'd put up some warning signs telling them "slow down" or "sharp corner ahead." They never do.

My life's not worth a new thread - I hope you all don't mind me posting here. Just had to say something.

[PoorboyMike]

My suggestion is to HP the D44s at around 100-125hz with a 2nd order electrical network (plus the 2nd order acoustic response = 4th order acoustic) and rolll in the Sub at around the same Fc with a 4th order acoustic LP slope. By 100hz, the D44 will be about 6db down, along with the subwoofer's response for proper summing of the system. This way you should be able to get over 108dbs with the system. The little W4s will quickly run out of xmax if allowed to run fullrange, as Ryan suggested.

Jed, I plan on using a DCX2496 for the xover. Why do you think I should HP the D44s so low? I would think running the bass bins up to 300-350hz would add the most impact and allow the D44s to play louder also. It would be close to the same xover point as the Lineup Maxx.

[PoorboyMike]

If my modeling is correct, 2 RS270 would have more output potential than a single RS315 or RS390. The frequency response of the RS270 is quite a bit flatter. At the current pricing, 2 RS270 (2x$65=$130) is about the same less than one RS315 and less than one RS390. I think I would go with 2 RS270s per box.

I'm not going to comment on whether this much bass is overkill. Who knows? Maybe you could get by with 1 RS270 in each, but what fun is that. I guess to answer that, you should model 1 RS270 (or 6 db less than what is shown) and compare it to 2 TB W4-1337s.

I didn't even think of the RS270s. Thanks for doing the Unibox leg work for me. :T

Another driver I'd like to use would be an AcousticElegance TD12 or 15, but those are a little spendy.

[Jed]

I
Another driver I'd like to use would be an AcousticElegance TD12 or 15, but those are a little spendy.

This is why I suggested a 100-125hz Fc. There's no way a sub like that is going to be clean to 300hz.

[---k---]

There's no way a sub like that is going to be clean to 300hz.

Ahhh, but the RS270 would be.
Especially when crossed to a real sub for the bottom octave.

[Jed]

Ahhh, but the RS270 would be.
Especially when crossed to a real sub for the bottom octave.

Yup, he'll have to go with a "woofer" and not a sub to reach that high. In general speaking terms.

Mike, once you have a woofer/ sub picked out post back here and we can critique its response to see if it is a good candidate for a 300hz Fc.

[---k---]

Jed,
I think one of us is missing something. He said that he planned to use these bass bins only between 80hz and 350hz. Below 80hz would be covered by 4 FI18 subs.

So I'm thinking 1 or 2 RS270s to cover just between 80hz and 350 hz would work great and priced about right for the use. Are you suggesting something different?

[Jed]

Jed,
I think one of us is missing something.

I agree the RS270 would be good for the range 80-300hz, my point is why use a "sub" to go 80-300hz?

Edit: duh, I was thinking of TC sounds not AE. Those AE drivers look great.

[Johnloudb]

Don't mind a bit John! Glad you and your family are safe.

Thanks Mike. It was nice to visit with some relatives that took us in for the night. Good thing it didn't blow though. Only thing between our home and the Bomb were 3 tall trees and part of house.

[Jed]

Thanks Mike. It was nice to visit with some relatives that took us in for the night. Good thing it didn't blow though. Only thing between our home and the Bomb were 3 tall trees and part of house.

Glad you are ok. It sounds like something from x files. Crazy.

[Brian Walter]

I would think a pair of RS270's would work quite well. After all, a pair of RS225's work very well in the Statements which also use a pair of the W4's for mids. I know Jim Holtz indicated that sealed statements paired with sub style bass bins works really well.

Brian Walter

[PoorboyMike]

OK, so a pair of RS270s sounds like it would work pretty good.

Are there any huge issues to putting the 270's side by side rather than vertical? This would help to keep the tweeter a little lower, although if there are problems, I can still get away with the vertical arrangement.

[Hdale85]

I would imagine putting them vertical and using the bass bins as stands would put the tweeter near perfect height.

[dlneubec]

After living with them for a couple months now, I can highly recommend the AE Lambda TD12 line above anyting else I've heard. My BaSSlines are using the TD12H ported and they are a phenominal woofer, IMO. I think if you asked some of the guys who attended the LexingtonDIY meet this past Saturday, they would tell you the same thing after hearing them. They were rocking that room and barely moving. I'm not sure if the TD12H is the best woofer in that line for a sealed bass bin (the TD12S may be the better option), but they will do right at an F3 of 80hz in only 14L sealed and with 500w input, will do 118db and still be far from reaching xmax. If you want something that is very clean, extremely dynamic and good to well over 500hz, they can't be beat. I'd bet it's lower midrange performance is better than most anything available that is anywhere near it's size.

When I bought mine, John gave me $50 off for buying a pair, but I don't know if he is still doing that.

[---k---]

Dan,

I'm jealous of the people at Lexington that got to hear your new speaker. I was really hoping that it would have been read for Iowa, because I would love to hear it.

I thought about the Lambda drivers and have heard nothing but good things about them. People like yourself have reported that they are worth the $200+ price. But, that's just a bit pricier than I personally would use until I had Scanspeak-level mids and tweeters. But hey, if Mike can afford it, then it is definitely a good option.

John also does have reduced pricing on his site listed for multiple drivers.

[Jed]

Dan, can you run a distortion sweep of the AE driver you have? I'm going to test a pair of TD10s.

[Johnloudb]

Glad you are ok. It sounds like something from x files. Crazy.

Yep, it was kind of strange.

Mike,

I've built some stereo subs using two RS270s in some old IMF transmission line speakers. I can't comment too much on the performance since I haven't yet finished the crossover for them. But, they are very sensitive drivers and my little T-amp had them putting out some very clean bass at low levels.
They even sounded half decent full range. Not that I'd want to listen to them that way though.

Here's the link: Transimission Line Sub

[dlneubec]

Dan, can you run a distortion sweep of the AE driver you have? I'm going to test a pair of TD10s.

Jed,

I'll see what I can do. It is one of many areas of SoundEasy that I have not studied or used, since I typically can get all I need from other sources, like Zaph's and Mark's testing.

[PoorboyMike]

Back from the dead....

So, I just picked up 3 TD12S drivers from a fellow forum member. They sure look like some nice drivers. :T

Anyway, back on topic. I've modeled these in Unibox and will be either building 2.4cu.ft. boxes for an F3 of 60hz or buying some of those B-stock M&K boxes, which would net a little under 2cu.ft. with an F3 around 70hz.

Xover points have been suggested anywhere from 200hz on up to 500hz. I will be using a DCX2496 so it will be easy to experiment. However, I don't really know where to start for what slope to use, or how I should to the spacing between the TD12 and the D44/R44 (not sure yet).

Oh, and I will also be rebuilding the enclosures for the D44/R44. They will be sealed and slightly wider so I can add a roundover.

What do you think?

[augerpro]

For spacing it helps smooth the power response if the distance is less then 1/2 a wavelength, some even prefer 1/4 wavelength at the crossover frequency. At 400hz 1/2 wavelength is 1.4 feet, 1/4 is .7 foot. Maybe a mock up of the proposed cabinet would help? boxynotes can also help you decide by looking at floor bounce and see if anything real problematic shows up.

[PoorboyMike]

Thanks Brandon.

Would I measure from the center of the 12 to the middle of the W4 MTM?

BTW, these will sit inside a "box" that will be the same opening as my 120" diagonal AT screen and about 2' deep. The rest of the area behind the false wall is for the IB backwave. The bottom of the screen/box will be about 2' up

from the floor. If the bass bins are only a few inches behind the screen, would floor bounce still be something to consider?

Maybe I'll give sketch up a shot and see if I can give everyone a better idea of what I'm working with.

[PoorboyMike]

This pretty much stinks but will give a general idea of what I have. The 20' depth is just approximate as there isn't a wall there yet. It's open to the entire basement. Ceiling height is 9'.

[PoorboyMike]

Progress is going slow to steady on this project. Boxes are mostly done except for finishing the baffles.

I do have a question on the baffle for the TD12s though. My original plan was to use 3/4 mdf for the bottom layer and 1/2" for the top "recess" layer for a total of 1 1/4". How important is it to have this driver perfectly flush mounted? If I use the 1/2" MDF, the rubber gasket will stick up a little over 1/8". I could go with 3/4" and cut the recess but then I'd have to buy more MDF and I already have a full sheet of 1/2" at the house.

Oh, and I really don't want to remove the rubber gasket either. They look funny without it.

I'll post some progress pictures tomorrow. I'm really excited to hear how the D44s will sound with TD12 bass bins.

[---k---]

For a woofer, not important. With the midrange and tweeter being far away, it shouldn't be a problem at all.

[PoorboyMike]

Thanks Ryan, I'll just stick with what I have then and use the 1/2".

Here are a couple of progress pics. Baffles are just leaning on the D44 boxes. I'm going to attempt the D26 recess before I go into work today. I also only have 2 "real" D26 tweeters, so I'm going to try to make due with the 4 ohm buyouts that I have for the center channel.

[---k---]

Wow, that is what I call a bass bin! Very impressive. I see you're also building a pair of Statements. For someone else???

[PoorboyMike]

Thanks K!

The Statements are for a friend of mine. He was torn between wanting your Khans (a little cheaper) or Statements (ribbon tweet) but decided he wanted to try the ribbon.

I hope to have both of these done within a month (yeah right!) so I can A/B the two designs. This is assuming I can get the active xover sounding good on my speakers. I have a mobile-pre but still need to get a mic. Can't wait to start taking actual measurements. :M

[stgdz]

So what is the advantage of the bass bin? Is it to extend down low for bookshelf speakers?

[PoorboyMike]

It's basically turning the D44 into a 3-way speaker. A pair of 4" mids doesn't really have much slam or impact in the mid bass region, and that is where the bass bin will be playing, from around 60-70hz up to about 3-400hz, depending on how things work out.

Should be a very dynamic and nice sounding combo once it's done. At least I hope it is. :T

[---k---]

I also only have 2 "real" D26 tweeters, so I'm going to try to make due with the 4 ohm buyouts that I have for the center channel.

Mike,
I just saw Thomas mention in another thread that Madisound has the D26NC55 in stock. Might want to check it out before they disappear again.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1078

[augerpro]

Cool stuff Mike! So what did you decide on for an active crossover?

[PoorboyMike]

Cool stuff Mike! So what did you decide on for an active crossover?

Thanks Brandon. I picked up a DCX2496 a couple of weeks ago. Other than taking it out of the box and looking at it, I haven't played around with it at all. I did download the software and check it out though. I'm sure I'll have a pile of questions to ask once I get everything ready! ops:

[PoorboyMike]

Mike,
I just saw Thomas mention in another thread that Madisound has the D26NC55 in stock. Might want to check it out before they disappear again.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1078

I did see that Ryan, I'm just trying to save as much money as I can at this point. The TD12s put me WAY over budget. 8O

[PoorboyMike]

Cabinet dampening

I have quite a pile of 1/2 Sonic Barrier laying around. I know that Jed recommended 3/4" on the Lineup series but I was wondering how effective it would be to double up the 1/2"? Or maybe line the cabinet with the 1/2" and then add some fiberglass?

The volume of the cabinit is about the same as the Lineup Maxx mid chamber.

[PoorboyMike]

I got the L & R up and running on Saturday. I was up until about 3am messing with the DCX settings. I ended up at LR2 @ 371hz and so far this seems to sound the best to my ears. No measurement mic yet so my ears are all I have to go on.

Speaking of my ears, so far these are the best speakers I've heard in my house. Very good detail, great imaging, female vocals sound amazing, and great dynamics if you want to go loud. Once I get a measurement setup I think they will only get better.

BTW, I do have a Radio Shack spl meter. Can I get a fairly accurate idea of what is going on using that and REW? I've heard that's not a good way to take measurements (other than a sub), but right now it's all I have.

[Jed]

Looks great! Glad you like the d44 part as well.

Jed

[PoorboyMike]

Looks great! Glad you like the d44 part as well.

Jed

Thanks Jed. The D44s sound great, even better than the top end on my Maxxs. Of course the Maxx have a slight screw up on one of the tweeter networks and the D26 isn't flush mounted yet. Hard to believe that a couple db off on the tweeter and lack of flush mounting matter that much, but the D44s are clearly a little better right now. I'll be fixing the Maxxs soon though, as my sister-inlaw is buying them for her husband's birthday, which is about 3 weeks away. 8O

[BeerParty]

I got the L & R up and running on Saturday. I was up until about 3am messing with the DCX settings. I ended up at LR2 @ 371hz and so far this seems to sound the best to my ears. No measurement mic yet so my ears are all I have to go on.

Speaking of my ears, so far these are the best speakers I've heard in my house. Very good detail, great imaging, female vocals sound amazing, and great dynamics if you want to go loud. Once I get a measurement setup I think they will only get better.

How about the Statements - have you made any progress on them? You mentioned earlier that you wanted to compare them...

[PoorboyMike]

How about the Statements - have you made any progress on them? You mentioned earlier that you wanted to compare them...

I'm still waiting on my friend to send me some money for parts. He was planning on it to be the begining of this month but he bought plane tickets for the rest of the family to fly home and visit. Apparently they were more money than he thought they were going to be.

I'm still looking forward to hearing how they compare though.