Accurate bass response?

[ClintonH]

First want to thank all you guys for answering my questions in my first post I finally figured out that setup and I'm very happy with the output, just not the sound quality.(with the sub) It seems muddy or maybe one toned, can't really explain but I'm sure proper drivers would make a world of difference. Now I can use what I have and be happy with it till I build a new setup. Here's what I was thinking of going with but I'm not sure on which would give me a more accurate response.
The amp will be an EP1500, I upgraded the A500 to this before the 2 week period was up. They didn't have a EP2500 in stock so this is what I have.
I also bought a MIC2200 for the SSF which is set to 12hz. (lowest setting) And preamp.
Here's a picture of my setup right now so you get the idea of the room layout and speaker placement.





I was thinking either 2 Tempest-X or one Maelstorm-X, would I have enough power to drive either of these to a reasonable volume?
I was thinking about going with a ported enclosure tuned to 16hz, would this be about right for Home Theater use? Or would a sealed box get me better/more accurate bass?
I have approx 16.25 ft^3 to work with internal volume to work with under my screen. This would be with 3/4" material and a 1 1/2" front baffle, this is also not including internal bracing, drivers or port. Guessing approx 14.5 after all that?
Any suggestions or recomendations would be great, not in a big rush but wouldn't mind ordering drivers ect in the next few weeks.

Thanks
Clinton

[ThomasW]

I finally figured out that setup and I'm very happy with the output, just not the sound quality. It seems muddy or maybe one toned, can't really explain but I'm sure proper drivers would make a world of difference.

Acoustic room treatments are in order. In addition you need to take measurement of the in-room frequency response. Otherwise you're just guessing about the problem...

And.....

No retail loudspeaker is designed to be in a corner up against the back wall. Speakers like your Klipsch are supposed to be out in the room approx 2' away from any boundary (side or back wall). Not doing this will cause the sound to be muddy.

[Xander]

Did you try moving your subs around at all? Or moving around the room while listening? You could just have a really bad room node at a certain frequency, causing havoc with your FR at the seating position. Could be cancellation at certain frequencies too, making others sound louder. EQ can fix some problems with FR (help bring up the bottom end), but it can't fix cancellation.

[Paul W]

Agree with Thomas on room treatments...the room is half the battle. Start with absorbers directly to the right and left of the front speakers and midway to listeners. Diffusers to the sides of the listeners. Heavy throw rugs midway between the LCR speakers and listeners.

Try to fit largest practical corner bass absorbers in the back of the room (behind the listeners). Looks like the LCRs are behind grillcloth...if so secure unbacked fiberglass in rolls and place it in the corners above and behind the left & right speakers.

Paint the shiny white ceiling a darker color with low sheen for a huge improvement in apparent contrast. Maybe replace the reflective ceiling with acoustic panels, at least between listeners and mains.

Measure carefully and adjust accordingly.

[ClintonH]

Acoustic room treatments are in order. In addition you need to take measurement of the in-room frequency response. Otherwise you're just guessing about the problem...

And.....

No retail loudspeaker is designed to be in a corner up against the back wall. Speakers like your Klipsch are supposed to be out in the room approx 2' away from any boundary (side or back wall). Not doing this will cause the sound to be muddy.

Actually without the subs the front stage sounds really nice to me. The fronts are not muddy it's the bass that is muddy or one toned. Should have wrote that out a little clearer. I know the speaker placement isn't ideal but having a wife makes life anything but ideal when it comes around to stuff like this. This is the best I can do with the WAF and to me they sound very nice, but then again this is my first set of real speakers.

Clinton

[ClintonH]

Did you try moving your subs around at all? Or moving around the room while listening? You could just have a really bad room node at a certain frequency, causing havoc with your FR at the seating position. Could be cancellation at certain frequencies too, making others sound louder. EQ can fix some problems with FR (help bring up the bottom end), but it can't fix cancellation.

Thanks but again they have to be somewhat hidden or they don't get through the door. I could possably build an enclosure that would sub for furniture, say maybe a large coffee table which would go between the screen and chairs. Or maybe gat away with a sonotube on the far right wall next to my AV rack. I'll have to try them in those spots and see if it's any better.

Clinton

[peter_m]

Ouch, looks like you have some kind of black curtain to hide everything around the screen. Am I right? If so you will hate to hear that you really will have to move things around like moving those speakers away from the rear wall.

Also what are you using as a projector?

Peter

[ClintonH]

Agree with Thomas on room treatments...the room is half the battle. Start with absorbers directly to the right and left of the front speakers and midway to listeners. Diffusers to the sides of the listeners. Heavy throw rugs midway between the LCR speakers and listeners.

Try to fit largest practical corner bass absorbers in the back of the room (behind the listeners). Looks like the LCRs are behind grillcloth...if so secure unbacked fiberglass in rolls and place it in the corners above and behind the left & right speakers.

Paint the shiny white ceiling a darker color with low sheen for a huge improvement in apparent contrast. Maybe replace the reflective ceiling with acoustic panels, at least between listeners and mains.

Measure carefully and adjust accordingly.

Diffusers? Would that be framed panels filled with dense fiberglass? If so I could try something like that along the sides but would that be for bass or front speakers?
The rear of the room has a treadmill setup so putting anything behind other than on the rear wall would be a no go. The fiberglass rolls, these would make the space behind/around the speakers appear larger correct? I could do something like that pretty easy as there's 18" of space where the speaks sit.
Don't really have a problem with the white ceiling killing my contrast as the frame around the screen is a shadowbox. It is 16" deep from front to the screen, it kills 90% of any refections and give the screen quit a nice contrast. The blacks are very deep and colors pop, no complaint about the screen or picture I have.

Again thanks for the suggestions guys, anyone have an opinion on which of those driver setups would work better with the amp/SSF I have?

Clinton

[---k---]

http://www.behringer.com/MIC2200/?lang=ENG

while its built-in tube adds warmth and transparency to your signal

Well there's your problem!

Somewhat joking. Who knows what that Behringer device is doing. I would experiment with it in and out and see if it is the problem. I've never seen anyone use it for what you're using it for.

Beyond that, of course I agree with Thomas, but as for your questions, I'm sure better drivers with an optimum design would help.

To decide whether to go with 2 Tempests or 1 Maelstorm, choose base on box side. Take a look at Kevin's Application Notes for each driver and see what he recommends for box sizes. Decide which you can live with.

Box size may decide the sealed versus ported for you also. Internet holy wars are raged over which is better. Me personally, I think sealed sounds slightly better, but not enough to get hung up over. Sealed is smaller and requires more power and eq to reach the deep deep lows that ported can get you. Ported, in small rooms, if they are designed almost flat to 16hz can pickup room gain that greatly exaggerates the low end (which a lot of people enjoy). There is no one answer, regardless of what the idiots on the internet tell you. It is going to be different for everyone and every room, which is why you see so many of us searching for perfection and building one sub right after another.

The best way to decide is to measure you existing sub close up and then at your listening position, then subtract the two to understand what your room gain is. Then spend a lot of time with the computer simulations to get something near perfect.

While the EP2500 is our favorite amp, because it offers the best power/$$ ratio, the EP1500 would probably be okay. The EP1500 is rated at 4ohm = 400 watts/ channel. Kevin's Applications notes for the Tempest use a 500W PE Plate Amp. So, you're a leaving a little on the table compared to what is presented in the Applications Notes, but I don't think you'll miss it with two of these.

You may consider selling the amp down the road and buying an EP2500 - especially if you go sealed. It isn't hard to sell them at only a small loss. Shoot, some who bought them 2 years ago can probably sell them for a profit due to the way the price has shoot up.

[ClintonH]

Ouch, looks like you have some kind of black curtain to hide everything around the screen. Am I right? If so you will hate to hear that you really will have to move things around like moving those speakers away from the rear wall.

Also what are you using as a projector?

Peter

Thanks, but I'm going to have to go ahead and say I'm really quit happy with the front speaker setup, sounds great to me. Just really would like to get a better bass setup, one that is actually designed for Home Theater use not for the Auto.

The speaker grills are made GOM which are transparent, same stuff that came on the speaker grills from factory.

I'm using a Optima HD65, really no problem with the projector at all. Picture is great, why do you ask?

Clinton

[ThomasW]

Somewhat joking. Who knows what that Behringer device is doing. I would experiment with it in and out and see if it is the problem. I've never seen anyone use it for what you're using it for.

NeoDan has checked out one of those and they're actually pretty good. The tube doesn't do much of anything..

[Paul W]

Diffusers? Would that be framed panels filled with dense fiberglass? If so I could try something like that along the sides but would that be for bass or front speakers?

No, the fiberglass panels are the HF absorbers. Google "acoustic diffusers". Both wall treatments would be primarily for the front speakers with the diffusers also impacting the rears. I understood you were asking about bass, but I have yet to hear a system that couldn't be improved...and that room needs treatment to deliver the full potential. If you're happy as-is...

The fiberglass rolls, these would make the space behind/around the speakers appear larger correct?

Yes, but the primary purpose is to help smooth the bass modes...usually the cause of the "muddy bass" problem you're trying to solve. Stuff as much back in those corners as you can, if possible moving the screen and speakers a little further into the room for more fiberglass. You could even try rolls at the floor/wall intersection behind the screen.

Measure, measure, measure

[dmalphur]

If this simulated graph from your other thread is in any way accurate, then there's your problem.

Even with a fairly steep crossover slope, you are going to have some midbass hump with that alignment. Combine that with the single wall placement of your existing woofers and you are most likely exciting some room modes which are causing the muddy bass at your listening position. I would definitely suggest at least new woofers that better fit your enclosures (maybe the RSS315HF-4, it would work well). This will help the present response issue, but won't help room modes. To even out room modes, you would want to add more subwoofers, 1 or 2 extras would do. They don't have to be large or have all that much output capability, but should be placed at locations other than the room corners. Some small sealed 10's with phase adjustable 100W plate amps would be fine.

Room treatments (at least the absorber types that have been suggested) will not fix the boomy bass.

Regards,
David

[ThomasW]

for the SSF which is set to 12hz. (lowest setting)

That setting isn't a good idea for a sub with a 23Hz tuning. The filter should be set around 20Hz to protect the drivers.

[Dean100]

Acoustic room treatments are in order. In addition you need to take measurement of the in-room frequency response. Otherwise you're just guessing about the problem...

And.....

No retail loudspeaker is designed to be in a corner up against the back wall. Speakers like your Klipsch are supposed to be out in the room approx 2' away from any boundary (side or back wall). Not doing this will cause the sound to be muddy.

What is your crossover setting at? You might try lowering it. As Thomas pointed out, without taking measurements of your in room frequency response you really don't know what is going on.

[shame302]

Are those RF7s? What are you powering those with?

[Hdale85]

Looks like some sort of receiver. And pretty sure they aren't RF-7's. Look at the front its the newer front. Probably RF-35's or something.

[shame302]

oh yeah...maybe 82s or 62s...

i wish i had a dedicated room...and projector ;0(

[Hdale85]

Yeah that's what I meant lol. I used to have RF62's with the RC62. Looks like them.

[ClintonH]

Dmalphur, I actually redid my box since that model. This is the new one, It was all made from scrap wood that I have from doing house renos. I'm not really wanting to keep the enclosure that I built but replace it with something that I can take my time on and finish nicely. So that's why the question on what would be a good driver to start with. I've been checking out the IXL-18.2.2, seems to model well in a 8 cu/ft vented enclosure fairly well.



Clinton

[ClintonH]

The subs are crossed over at 80 hz. The front speakers are RF-35's and RC-35 with RS-42's for surrounds. They are being driven off a Denon AVR-888 100 watt per channel receiver.

Clinton

[shame302]

well, i know you stated that you like how they sound and i know this thread is geared towards a bass issue you are having. however, id just like to suggest that you try to hear your speakers on a sepperate amp. that receiver isnt enough to drive those speakers. they may be efficient but klipsch in general have some nasty dips down into the 2.7 ohm range wich is way off the charts for most receivers. just a suggestion. if you like how they sound now, you will love them on a sepperate amp.

[ClintonH]

well, i know you stated that you like how they sound and i know this thread is geared towards a bass issue you are having. however, id just like to suggest that you try to hear your speakers on a sepperate amp. that receiver isnt enough to drive those speakers. they may be efficient but klipsch in general have some nasty dips down into the 2.7 ohm range wich is way off the charts for most receivers. just a suggestion. if you like how they sound now, you will love them on a sepperate amp.

Thanks for the suggestion but I just bought everything in the last month, not much of a budget left to buy more amps. I can sell the subs in the original box to a friend for his car, which will cover 2/3rd's the cost of the IXL-18.2.2 or $150 towards whatever I choose to go with. But buying more amps and putting the $750 Denon on the shelf isn't an option for me at the moment.

Clinton

[shame302]

well, i would suggest them, run them all on "small" or maybe cross them at say, 60-80 i know most people cringe at the thought of running their large tower speakers on small but its so much better for the entire system. it takes a ton of load off of the receivers amp section improving sound quality all around. as specially with those speakers. i have a set of statements that are very capable down low but as a part of a complete system, i run them small wich increased my headrom and SQ immensely. im running a sepperate amp myself as they dip into the 4s.

good luck with whatever you end up with your subs i hope you get it all worked out....your room looks great!

[ThomasW]

Clinton,

I'm 99% sure the 'boom' you're hearing is a function of the output from the sub interacting with the geometry of the room. If that's the case changing to a different driver isn't going to change the situation.

It would be prudent to buy a Radio Shack SPL meter and take a few measurements to see what's going on....

[ClintonH]

Clinton,

I'm 99% sure the 'boom' you're hearing is a function of the output from the sub interacting with the geometry of the room. If that's the case changing to a different driver isn't going to change the situation.

It would be prudent to buy a Radio Shack SPL meter and take a few measurements to see what's going on....

I'll see about getting on this weekend, thanks.

Clinton

[djg]

Second on the spl meter. Thomas W posted a link for me in your first post that really helped improve my system sound. I bought a spl meter, downloaded some test tones, and finally got some info instead of just guessing.

[ClintonH]

So I was phoning around for a SPL meter today, the only one that I can get in town is the one The Source cares. Which is this ONE which doesn't seem to have a output port. Is this any good to me?
I was also reading through the link in my first post on subwoofer setup from Thomas, It has info on testing with a preamp/mic combo used with a computer sound card. Well I tested my sound card and it is full Duplex so that should work fine. Now I bought the MIC2200 for the SSF and balanced line converting but it has the mic and phantom power as well so can I use this in place of the equipment listed and just purchase a ECM-8000 to test with? If I can I'm not sure I fallow the correct way to hook up and would I use Room EQ WIZARD to run the tests? Here are the Specs on the MIC2200 to see if it is usable or not. Thanks again.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

You can use the MIC2200 with the ECM-8000. In addition you'll need a computer that has a full duplex soundcard. This means it has line level in/out puts. (understand this is different than rather the useless standard mic input on a laptop or desk top PC)

This is link to the manual way of making measurements. It only requires a SPL meter and test tones. Subsequent pages deal with more advanced measurement techniques. http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/S...ndEQpage4.html

The SPL meter is less useful than one with a output port. It can be used in conjunction with ECM0800/REQW to set absolute SPL levels.

[bluewizard]

Well, once again, jumping in over my head. You certainly have rallied some expertise to your aid. The best I can do is add conceptual comments.

The Line Up of the Usual Suspect -

1.) Phase - are you sure your subwoofers are in phase with each other, and that they are in phase with the rest of your system?

Also, try turning the Subs around, by that I mean, move the ports to the outside and the woofers as close together in the center as possible. Not saying it will work, but it should be enough to change the dynamic.

You might even consider tipping them up on end so the port is hidden by the screen and moving them as close to the center as possible. Again, just to change the dynamic to see if the sound improves.

One question, are these STEREO Subs, or mono? If they are mono, then maybe you are getting some weird cancellation based on how far apart the woofer are.

To test this out, again, tip the Subs up on end with the port hidden by the screen (or the speakers in front of the screen), and place them side-by-side, as close together as possible, and see if the sound improves.

2.) Tuning - As dmalphur points out with his attached graphs, if the subwoofer cabinet is tuned wrong, it will have a peak in the response.

In some cases, speakers in general and subwoofers are intentionally built this way. Young and foolish people tend to think loud bass is good bass. So the loud thumping one-note bass appeals to them. Older and wiser, and younger and wiser, know that smooth uniform clear bass response is better in the long run.

Can you tell us more about the Subwoofer, the design, the tuning, the actual speaker, etc...?

3.) Standing waves, resonance, and other room problems - The room looks pretty bare and hard. Though I do notice you appear to have acoustic tile on the ceiling, if not, then you should.

Room treatments can come in may forms, curtains, rugs, bass traps, and general acoustical treatments. One could probably get by with simple office partition walls. A short soft wall behind the seating area might soften the room's sound.

To get an idea of what bass traps and acoustical treatments are, here is a link to the thread by a respected DIYAudio forums speaker designer who build some very large impressive speaker to place in a long narrow not so impressive room. It will give you an idea of what people mean by room treatments. If nothing else, scroll through the long thread and just look at the pictures.

An attempt at treating a small room

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129229

And just for fun, here is the thread that goes through the design process for these speakers. It's worth a look just for the pictures.

'LGT' Construction Diary

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93218&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Generally, room treatments consist of placing soft sound absorbing material around the room, and/or creating irregular surfaces for the sound to bounce off of.

In the case of ShinObiwan in the above linked-to threads. He places thick panels on the walls that are filled with Rockwool, covered in foam, the recoverd in soft cloth. This makes for some very soft walls.

Bass traps are usually panels that primarily absorb bass and keep it from reflecting around the room. Again, this usually consists of sound absorbing panels placed around the room, sometimes set out from the wall an inch or two that not only absorb but break up the reflected patterns.

Here is a place that sells bass traps and other acoustic treatments. If nothing else, the photos should give you some idea of what we are talking about.

http://www.realtraps.com/products.htm

and another it Do-It-Yourself products -

http://www.atsacoustics.com/

Quick and dirty wall treatments. Go to WalMart, buy a couple of cheap convoluted foam mattress pads, staple them to the wall in front of your speakers. Then hang some dirt cheap Walmart curtains in front of them. Bada-bing bada boom, problem solved...OK, maybe not solved but certainly improved. And best of all - dirt cheap!

[EDITED] -

Just want to add that the Real Traps website has some nice videos. I found the video "All About Diffusion" to be very informative with excellent demonstrations.

Also consider the informative video - "HOW TO SET UP AND TREAT A LISTENING ROOM".

Real Trap Videos -

http://www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

Hope something in there helps.

steve/bluewizard

[ClintonH]

Well, once again, jumping in over my head. You certainly have rallied some expertise to your aid. The best I can do is add conceptual comments.

The Line Up of the Usual Suspect -

1.) Phase - are you sure your subwoofers are in phase with each other, and that they are in phase with the rest of your system?

Also, try turning the Subs around, by that I mean, move the ports to the outside and the woofers as close together in the center as possible. Not saying it will work, but it should be enough to change the dynamic.

You might even consider tipping them up on end so the port is hidden by the screen and moving them as close to the center as possible. Again, just to change the dynamic to see if the sound improves.

One question, are these STEREO Subs, or mono? If they are mono, then maybe you are getting some weird cancellation based on how far apart the woofer are.

To test this out, again, tip the Subs up on end with the port hidden by the screen (or the speakers in front of the screen), and place them side-by-side, as close together as possible, and see if the sound improves.

2.) Tuning - As dmalphur points out with his attached graphs, if the subwoofer cabinet is tuned wrong, it will have a peak in the response.

In some cases, speakers in general and subwoofers are intentionally built this way. Young and foolish people tend to think loud bass is good bass. So the loud thumping one-note bass appeals to them. Older and wiser, and younger and wiser, know that smooth uniform clear bass response is better in the long run.

Can you tell us more about the Subwoofer, the design, the tuning, the actual speaker, etc...?

3.) Standing waves, resonance, and other room problems - The room looks pretty bare and hard. Though I do notice you appear to have acoustic tile on the ceiling, if not, then you should.

Room treatments can come in may forms, curtains, rugs, bass traps, and general acoustical treatments. One could probably get by with simple office partition walls. A short soft wall behind the seating area might soften the room's sound.

To get an idea of what bass traps and acoustical treatments are, here is a link to the thread by a respected DIYAudio forums speaker designer who build some very large impressive speaker to place in a long narrow not so impressive room. It will give you an idea of what people mean by room treatments. If nothing else, scroll through the long thread and just look at the pictures.

An attempt at treating a small room

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129229

And just for fun, here is the thread that goes through the design process for these speakers. It's worth a look just for the pictures.

'LGT' Construction Diary

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93218&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Generally, room treatments consist of placing soft sound absorbing material around the room, and/or creating irregular surfaces for the sound to bounce off of.

In the case of ShinObiwan in the above linked-to threads. He places thick panels on the walls that are filled with Rockwool, covered in foam, the recoverd in soft cloth. This makes for some very soft walls.

Bass traps are usually panels that primarily absorb bass and keep it from reflecting around the room. Again, this usually consists of sound absorbing panels placed around the room, sometimes set out from the wall an inch or two that not only absorb but break up the reflected patterns.

Here is a place that sells bass traps and other acoustic treatments. If nothing else, the photos should give you some idea of what we are talking about.

http://www.realtraps.com/products.htm

and another it Do-It-Yourself products -

http://www.atsacoustics.com/

Quick and dirty wall treatments. Go to WalMart, buy a couple of cheap convoluted foam mattress pads, staple them to the wall in front of your speakers. Then hang some dirt cheap Walmart curtains in front of them. Bada-bing bada boom, problem solved...OK, maybe not solved but certainly improved. And best of all - dirt cheap!

[EDITED] -

Just want to add that the Real Traps website has some nice videos. I found the video "All About Diffusion" to be very informative with excellent demonstrations.

Also consider the informative video - "HOW TO SET UP AND TREAT A LISTENING ROOM".

Real Trap Videos -

http://www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

Hope something in there helps.

steve/bluewizard

Thanks for all the time you spent writing that out, but alot of it wont work. The subs can't go behind the screen as the screen is only 4" off the rear wall. The shadow box is built out from the wall 18" in total, that's what the subs sit under. They can't be tipped on the back as they are too deep to fit in that position. They can be swapped side for side to bring the woofers closer, I can try that. The subwoofer specs etc are in the first post I have linked to they are for car audio, they were free and thought I'd just try them just for the hell of it. And the box has been tuned lower and built larger than the first graph or the pictures indicate. The new model is the one I posted at the middle of the page, it's fairly flat for this sub I think.

The room has acoustic tiles and the floor is actually not hardwood but a industrial vinyl plank flooring, kind of like this just thicker (10mm) It's very rubbery not hard so I would think this absorbs some of the sound, better than the concrete under it. And I really can't put anything behind the seating as this is where my wife runs on the treadmill, uses the projector and sound system when she exercises. That would block all viewing for her and that isn't going to fly. Thanks again for all this guys, think I'll just go ahead and upgrade the subs to something made for home audio. I was just really hoping for a suggestion on which might be a better choice for my room, 15", 18", a pair, one or something smaller. It seems most of the options listed involve spending more money and time on something that it's all that bad just thought I'd improve it if I upgrade. Like I said before really new to this and can't really see me getting a whole bunch of $$ invested into something like "a little off" on the bass. If I have too choose I'll live with it as is, better than not having to room setup. Thanks.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

It seems most of the options listed involve spending more money and time on something that it's all that bad just thought I'd improve it if I upgrade. Like I said before really new to this and can't really see me getting a whole bunch of $$ invested into something like "a little off" on the bass. If I have too choose I'll live with it as is, better than not having to room setup. Thanks.

Without some technical information it's impossible to know if going with different driver will solve the problem.

From your description "It seems muddy or maybe one toned", it sounds like the listening position is in a room induced problem called 'a room mode or peak'. This where the direct sound and the reflected sound combine and produce higher output at a given frequency...

More here...http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/S...ndEQpage2.html

Does this characterization change as you walk around the room? If so building a new sub with better drivers in the same location won't solve the problem

[bluewizard]

I was suggesting that you tip the Subs up on end and move them together as a test. If that improves the sound, then it is a clue as to the problem, and may lead you to a solution.

I was suggesting you put soft half-walls behind the sofa. You know...office cubical partitions. If your wife is running on the treadmill, she should be able to see and hear over the half-wall.

You could also make freestanding bass traps. Essentially movable panels that absorb sound. If you look at the Bass Trap sites I link to or view the videos, you will see several very light weight free standing panels that can be easily mover around.

When you are listening to Video, you can move the panels behind the sofa, when your wife is running on the treadmill, simply move them back against the side wall.

The Videos about Diffusion and about setting up a room both discuss seating and speaker placement. Actually, yours doesn't look too bad. But, it is possible you are sitting in a bass null.

Making bass traps on the cheap is not that hard. I wasn't kidding when I said run down to Walmart and get a convoluted foam mattress pad and some cheap curtains. One mattress pad cut to size and fitted on the wall between the seating area and the speakers, then cover with hung curtain would do a very good job for very little money; absorbs, diffuses, and softens. That would certainly soften the listening area.

For panels behind the sofa, think of the roll-around blackboard or whiteboard that you must have seen at some point in your life; only smaller for this application.

Make a couple of 4' x 4' wood frames 4" to 6" thick. Fill one side with house insulation and cover with rough cloth like burlap. Cover the other side in convoluted foam, preferable acoustical foam, but common convoluted packing foam will get the job done. (more information available on sources of convoluted packing foam upon request.)

Now mount these panels each on their own roll-around frame. These are both absorbent and reflective from the front. And diffusing and sound absorbent from the back.

You can make a couple of similar panels, or variations there of, for the very back wall. That will absorb, diffuse, and lightly reflect sound.

OK, it's on the cheap, and it probably won't be as good as a professional install, but it should help tremendously.

Again, simply as a test, place the subs side by side on end, and see if the sound improves or not. Then let us know.

Also, don't forget to verify that the Subs are wired correctly relative to the fronts and center. If they are out of phase, that is going to cause an acoustical mess.

Also try moving around the room while something is playing, and see if there are spots that sound better to you. Maybe, in the end, moving the sofa two or three feet might be all that is needed.

Steve/bluewizard

[bluewizard]

Non-acoustic Convoluted Foam at a bargain prices -

http://www.uline.com/BL_863/Convoluted-Foam-Sets

http://www.uline.com/BL_8002/Anti-Static-Convoluted-Foam-Sets

Example,

SIX 24" x 24" charcoal colored 2 inch double sheets @ $9.95

NINE 24" x 36" charcoal colored 2 inch double sheets @ $12.45


Also there is a type of ridged fiberglass that works better than softer house insulation, and is less likely to particulate into the air. Also keep in mind that soft house insulation is now available if various forms of non-toxic recycled flame retardant fabric (cotton, old blue jeans, etc...).

http://www.atsacoustics.com/ has the acoustic version available, but for quick and dirty, and much easier to find, there are ceiling tiles that are a vinyl face backed with about 3/4" thick semi-ridged fiberglass. Peel of the vinyl and you have some fairly decent sound absorbing material at, as I said, a fair price.

If you do make an inner core of soft fiberglass house insulation, you might consider then covering that with a thin layer of polyester batting which is available at most fabric stores. Then in turn cover that with a rough porous cloth.

Parts Express also has several types of acoustical foam in different patterns, though true acoustical foam is noticeably more expensive.

http://www.partsexpress.com/acoustic-noise-control.cfm?FTR=foam&CFID=12445879&CFTOKEN=86191157

Just passing this along as general information.

Steve/bluewizard

[djg]

Fifty dollars for a spl meter before you buy new subs seems better than finding out new subs don't solve your problem.

[---k---]

Lots of possible issue, that's why you're not getting one solid answer. It takes a lot of work some times to get massive great bass in small rooms.

[ClintonH]

Well I made some headway on this last night after work. I was too late to go get either the SPL meter or the Mic so I just fallowed some of the suggestions. I started with the really easy stuff fist and moved on.

First I checked to see if the subs where infact wired correctly, they were.
Moved them so the woofers were firing closer together, this made a noticable difference in the clarity and output level.
After that I desided to quickly modify the boxes so they were sharing the same volume and bump the volume a bit and bring the subs closer together. So it's one volume now tuned to 18hz with the SSF at 18hz as well. I also stuffed the box with poly, fairly heavily.
Also instead of stuffing fiberglass around the fronts I bought cheap ploy filled pillows and stuffed those around them instead. Figured poly is used in place of fiberglass in some builds so the poly should work to some extent the same way. This cleared up a tone of the sound, I don't hear any muddy one tone sound any more. It might still have problem, but it it a huge improvement and it only cost a few hours of my time and $30 for 12 pillows. Hope this is moveing the right direction and I didn't mess anything up. I'll be hopefully getting either a mic or SPL meter in the next few days to test this with. Thanks again guys, here's a pic of the new box.




Clinton

[Paul W]

While you are trying easy stuff, try folding and rolling some bath towels for a very tight fit in the ports. Try 1, 2, or all 3 plugged. This may give you a more gradual roll-off on the bottom end which might be a better match in your room. Bass response in-room is what counts.

[ThomasW]

So it's one volume now tuned to 18hz with the SSF at 18hz as well.

Port tuning to 18Hz is to boost that frequency. So you're defeating the purpose of the port by having a SSF at the same frequency...use 16Hz or 17Hz for the SSF frequency

[---k---]

I'm glad your making progress.

Would you mind sharing a photo of the stuffing. You don't necessarily need heavy stuffing in a ported enclosure. Also, you don't want the stuffing to obstruct the port.

[ClintonH]

Ok thanks I'll mess with this again tonight and see if I can make any more progress. I'll lower the SSF and block some/all the ports and see if that makes things any better/worse.

K, the poly I used is just reg pillow stuffing from Walmart. Is that not a good way to go? No I made sure not to block the ports just filled the box around the port and to the sides of the subs, left the back of the subs and ports open to breath. I can still post a pic tonight if you'd like.

Clinton

[---k---]

It's fine. It may not be as good as fiberglass. I'm just curious to see how much you have. If you put way too much in and it can cause a decrease in output and muffle the sound. Just want to make sure. Many people, including myself, have put too much in at first.

[ClintonH]

Tried closing off the ports and all it did was decrease the bass output, didn't matter with one two or all. It sound actually really good now, I'll wait till I get something to measure it with to see if I'm on the right track. Thanks.

K, here's what I used. The same amount in each large box and approx the same in the small joining box over the ports.



Clinton

[bluewizard]

Well, I'm glad you found a way to improve the sound of your speaker. I will also add that I love the improvement to the looks. That finished wood really looks spectacular.

Don't want to keep harping on this, but some room acoustic treatments would probably still help. Though it probably doesn't have to be as extreme as I originally suggested.

A couple of simple absorption panels on the side walls and a diffusing panel on the back wall would probably improve the listening experience. Simply foam, fabric, and fiberglass. Given your wood working skills, it shouldn't be a problem.

steve/bluewizard

[bluewizard]

Still think the new design looks fantastic.

Let me see if I understand correctly. The current design is really one big box with the two Bass Sections joined together by the Port Section? I would have never thought of that, but it seems to be a good idea. AND...bonus...it creates a nice place to set your Center.

But I'm confused, when I look closely at the new pictures, there don't seem to be any tops on the bass boxes. Or, is that an optical illusion? Or, just temporary? Or, is that part of the plan?

Just asking out of curiosity. I think it was a very innovative and attractive solution to the problem.

Steve/bluewizard