Another Sub Thread...

[yousuredo2]

I intend to build a Sub Woofer (60% HT / 25% gaming / 15% Music),
~A word or two about what I would like to get from this~
Great bang for bucks spent is always good.
A Sub that doesn't 'need' upgrading anytime soon.
Sound quality over SPL

I really have my heart set on a larger driver (15"/18")
subs that have my attention are:
Tempest X
Maelstrom x would have to go on sale again before I could afford it
Mach 5s IXL 15.2.2
Mach 5s IXL 18.4

~ Just received my Ep 2500& the P9739-ND For the Fan Mod
~ Did the Mod and man what a difference,
I had to place my hand on it to make sure it was on.

looking at Eq's too:
Is one better than the other for Sub Use ?
Behringer FBQ2496 ($149 shipped)
Begringer DSP 1124P ($99 shipped)

If you have some other options not listed post em up please.
I anit sold on anything yet, and my options are still endless...
As far as a box size, proted/sealed, etc. I am flexible.
I want it to go low with good Sound qualitly

[ThomasW]

How big is the room, is it sealed off or part of an open floorplan? What's the distance from the listening position to the proposed location of the sub? Can you do an IB sub? What sound pressure levels do you want?

Everything in audio will do nothing but go up in price. You'll likely never see the old retail price for the Maelstrom let alone the sale pricing.

Chuck's testing shows the EP2500 is a very good amp. Nady is the low price leader, it's fans are louder than those in the EP2500. The other two amps you listed are non-contenders IMO..

[yousuredo2]

thanx thomasW for the fast response...

the floor plan Sucks for HT...
My house is a Split Entry floor plan
general living area is semi-large (guesstimate 800-1000 Sq Ft.)
(living room/ dinning room/ kitchen/ hallway/ foyer) are all open to one another
all rooms have laminate Hard woods or tile floors

Living room only has Vaulted ceilings,
So, there is attic space over the hallway, dinning room & Kitchen for IB

However, I am Planning on having a dedicated HT room in the basement
(One day far far from now)
should I do IB if it isn't going to be used for Ht in a few years

not set on placement yet, but for the sake of this thread, If I placed it in the corners to the left and right of Tv, about 11 ft.
If Ib in the ceiling of the dinning room about 7 ft.

as far as SPL I have no clue...
chris

[ThomasW]

If you're buying drivers tomorrow either the Tempest-X or the Mach 5 18" are your price/liters of air displaced winners. Both require large boxes.

If there's a possibility of an IB sub in the basement (rearwave exiting into a adjacent room, closet, or a false wall) it might be a interesting idea to consider the 4-AE-IB15"s at $100ea or 2 Fi IB 18" drivers at $209ea shipping included.

When used in multiples the IB designed drivers will work in large standard boxes/tubes. Understand these IB drives aren't designed to be used individually, since their power handling (thermal limit) is low compared to 'regular' drivers.

IMO the only EQ worth considering is either the Behringer DSP1124P or FBQ2496

[fbov]

I just paired a Tempest-X with an Oaudio Bash 500 amp in a 3 cu. ft. enclosure and I'm impressed so far. It was descried as a low-distortion driver. When I put a clean, low signal through it, say from a test disk, I see lots of amplitude on the cone and don't hear anything but bass.

I can't say the same from all my sources, so it'll be interesting to see where this thing tells me I need to improve things. (Yes, I know that one of them is the size of the enclosure, but this fits what I can do now.)

Frank

[DS-21]

Are you set on a new driver?

[yousuredo2]

~If I plan to go IB in the basement.
I have a small crawl space under the stairs
(half flight of stairs) 4't x 6'd x ,and tapers down to the left in a L shape another 5'...
a small jacket closet, a laundry room, and raised bathroom joining it.
a drop ceiling is also down there but not much room

how much room would IB subs need to perform well ?
and will they do well in large boxes upsatirs until I get the HT room Done ?

If not maybe I should wait on IB for a few years...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do like the 'Easy button' designs on the avs forum

[Hdale85]

Might need a bigger space then those for an IB depending on your goals.

[ThomasW]

We've put IB's in spaces that small. There's a link in my signature to a generic IB FAQ page. On that page there's a link to 2 more pages of information about IB subs

[kingpin]

I'm using 2 of the ixl's each in their own 4.5 cu.ft enclosures in a room 13x26x7. They do an amazing job. I actually built 2 ported enclosures but when I moved the subs to the side walls I needed smaller enclosures.
They are being powered by an ep2500.

Mike

[yousuredo2]

I remember your builds kingpin, nice work
how low do they go ?
how would one have done for your room size ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lets put Ib on the back burner for now...
I do like the flexibility of boxes/sonotubes for room placement issues

Are the tempest X and IXL 18 both capable of down firing ?
what is difference in the two as far as output/spl/ low freq response
what would you recomend...?

I have never been any good at the programs to calculate all of this.
I can enter the parameters, but I don't know how to tweak it to get optimal

I don't have any way to measure anything, how hard is it to use either behringer if you have no clue what going on in the room...

~ ~ ~ EDIT ~ ~ ~
I do have some materials on hand for port tubes(will messure tommorow)
but i am having touble sourcing out some sonotube(if I go that route)

[---k---]

I found the EP2500 to significantly outperform a Nady XA900 with a pair of sealed SS RL-p15s - as would be expected with the price difference. I found that for my room and my goals, the EP2500 was needed. YMMV.

[yousuredo2]

I want to make sure that when i order my amp, I also get any connectors needed at the same time...
is this the connectors used for the behringer fbq2496 & ep2500 or something else recommended ?

Image not available

how do you guys wire everything together...?

reading about the tempest X Kevin recommends 500w for larger boxes, & the IXL 18 is rated for 1000w

Is the ep2500 Overkill for these drivers?

[ThomasW]

Yes use mono 1/4" adapters to go from your sub out to the input of the EQ. I think it's a good idea to then use an XLR cable to go from the EQ to the power amp. Others will use a 1/4" to 1/4" cable, or RCA to RCA cable with the mono 1/4" adapters

The EP2500 is an very good amp for the money. The fact that it has high power doesn't mean all that power needs to be used.

[yousuredo2]

cool, thanx thomasW.

I found a source locally for sonotube, thinking 24" x 12' for roughly $80...

[yousuredo2]

Bought the Sonotube Yesterday 24" x 12'
I Had to cut it in half to transport it (not square yet)
Been trying to learn WinSD, and no luck yet...
Here are some measurements I ran in it, let me know if I am doing it wrong.

Blue = IXL 18.4, ported with a 6"
Green = Tempest X, ported with a 6"
Orange = AE IB15 ,ported with a 6"
Yellow = AE IB15, Sealed in 460L

I have a click able thumbnail below to view
any guidance, advice, etc...?

Image not available

[ThomasW]

Unless you plan on using multiple drivers (2 or more) don't go with the AE-IB15"s in box/tube type subs. Reason being they have smaller voice coils and aren't designed to handle the power (heat) when used individually.

[---k---]

The Tempest motor has an XBL2 and is going to have lower distortion. The XL is is bigger diameter, but has a bit less xmax. I haven't run the displacement numbers, but the XL is probably just a hair more than the Tempest. Choice is yours.

You model is hard to read. Kevin has a 340L 16hz tuned model in the Tempest-X application notes. This should be pretty close to what you modeled, but they don't quite look the same. You might want to check your models.

[yousuredo2]

Thomas,
I am considering two tubes. with AE IB15.(and perhapses the tempest X)
But I don't know how to model two different boxes/tubes

---K---,
I had it modeled with my sonotube at 460L,
I redid it @ 340/16hz, but it humps up even more

Image not available

[Dennis H]

Kevin modeled all his boxes fully stuffed which is a bit unusual for a ported box. You'd need to click Advanced on the box tab and change Qa to 10 or so. If trying to build one of his boxes, you'd need to stuff it as full as you could while still providing a clear path between the port and the driver. If you block off that path, you need to decrease Qp in the model.

Edit: oops, you need the pro version of WinISD to access the advanced parameters.

[ThomasW]

It's important to remember these are anechoic sims not in-room response curves. Room-gain will boost the lowest octaves.

An Fb of 19Hz is a little high for HT since a lot of 'special effects' are in the 15-16Hz range. Some advocate for even lower tunings, problem with that is the ports become so long there are issues with port resonances.

Also I see no point in porting to boost really low purely infrasonic frequencies. Reason being with a resonant system like a ported box it's impossible to discriminate between 10Hz and 15Hz (it's all just room shake), so why bother?

[yousuredo2]

Keep in mind I have No Idea What I am Doing, or going to do...
Just trying to learn as I go forward with this.
I am Completely Open to what ever makes more sense, works better, yields the best results.

I was wondering why I haven't seen any Sealed sonotubes.
Can the sonotube handle it ?

[---k---]

There have been some sealed sonotubes. I think that with sealed people are going for small cubes that look nice - not that a sealed sono can't look nice. Sonotubes are the most practical, and almost a necessity, when building monsterous ported beasts.

[---k---]

Also I see no point in porting to boost really low purely infrasonic frequencies.

I'm not sure if I follow what you mean by this.

[ThomasW]

You've probably seen the threads where the fixation is on 10Hz or something like that?

Given the nature of how air mass resonant systems (aka ported) operate, it's basically impossible to discriminate differences in frequencies below ~15Hz....it's all just room shake (infrasonic) .

So why bother with the hassle of port resonances from extraordinarily long ports just to change the frequency of the room shake?

[yousuredo2]

OK, I have tried for a couple of days now, and I cannot locate the FI IB18's...
Am I missing something, I would like to model them(Pair) up too.

[ThomasW]

They're sort underground products, so those in the know have the data.

You won't find things like Bl, Pmax, etc., because those aren't very important for IB subs..

Info on the 18"

Finalized the coils and specs for the 18 IB model.
Re 1.5 Ohms (single 2 Ohm)
Le .87mH
Fs 22.9 hz
Qms 3.25
Qes .79
Qts .63
Vas 381 l
Mms 258 g
Sd 1210 cm^2
Spl 89.4 1W/1m

Xmax is 30mm and suspension and motor limit right about at the same time.

At about 500-600 W it hits its linear limits at 20Hz. Power needs will vary accordingly.

$209 ea or $199 if 4 or more are ordered , shipping is included

Info in the 15"

Specs for the smaller 15" IB sub are:
Re 1.6 Ohms
Fs 24.4 Hz
Le .72 mH
Qms 4.00
Qts .77
Qes .64
Vas 269.5 l
Mms 145.4 g
Sd 810 cm^2
Spl 90.0 1W/1m

Xmax is 22mm and is suspension limited (Xmag is 24mm)

Single 2 Ohm coils and $129 each or $119 for 4+, shipping is included

[yousuredo2]

thanx thomasW,
30mm Xmax is awesome...

I am getting no where with WinSD...
Programs aren't my thing at all.

I don't mind going IB Up stairs but from what I've read, My situation wouldn't be good.
they would be behind the seating position about 3' back and 4' higher

So, I don't know what to do...
I already bought the sonotube (doesn't mean I have to use it)
I don't mind buying 'two' Subs if they are fairly inexpensive.
I don't mind mind getting 'one' of better quality either.

I have placed the order for the EP2500 and it should be here next week 8)

[kingpin]

maybe i missed it but why ported?
Like I said earlier i was running 2 ported subs and have switched over to 2 sealed subs.
I am using them for alot of movie watching lately and they are awesome. I still haven't added an eq yet so I can use an lt.
My enclosures are roughly 28x28 x12 and they hit low and hard. My room isn't as big as yours but............

Image not available

Image not available


Mike

P,s, I missed your earlier question way back. 1 does the room well. 2 bring the room to it's knees.

As for how low it goes. No idea how to figure that out. No measurement hardware.

[Hdale85]

Mike what drivers did you use? And I see they are still yellow

[yousuredo2]

maybe i missed it but why ported?
~ No Preference really
1 does the room well. 2 bring the room to it's knees.
~ I Love to hear that
As for how low it goes. No idea how to figure that out. No measurement hardware.
~ How does one use an EQ to tone down room issues without any Measurement hardware

I love the chest pounding bass, and the house shaking bass,
I would love to get both from this build, but i figured its a compromise.
one or the another

He Is running 2 IXL 18.4

[kingpin]

I love the chest pounding bass, and the house shaking bass,
I would love to get both from this build, but i figured its a compromise.
one or the another

He Is running 2 IXL 18.4

I have the same problem. It seems that there are a few people who are trying to integrate a mid bass option with their setups to go with their subs which seem to overwhelm their mains.

I think maybe some people are scared to say that they like an exaggerated lowmid bass. As this is seen as not pure to the recording or coloring the sound.

It seems as though maybe some people are still looking for a............should I say it...............cerwin vega.....................ahhhhhhhhhhhh...........i 'm going to pay for this..............type of punch with their precise sounding speakers.
There are a couple of guys(John Lank.......something) I think over on avs that are building a 3-way highly efficient speaker with a 15" or 12" into it for that mid bass punch.

I would love to see one of the masters here build a kindof fun speaker. One with an integrated 12 or 15 for that mid bass punch. Not a serious speaker but one that people can use to crank up on their deck in the summer or to crank some tunes to during a party. Before anyone says it.........I'm not capable of building such a speaker and I know such a speaker is not high on the priority scale.
When I buy my house I will be looking to build such a monster for the ht room. Maybe one like mark seatons catalyst.
Keep my 3-ways for the music room.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.


Mike

[yousuredo2]

I'm using 2 of the ixl's each in their own 4.5 cu.ft enclosures

They are being powered by an ep2500.

Mike

How you have them wired ?
did you get the single 4 Ohm VC/Dual 2 Ohm VC

[kingpin]

Single 4ohm.
Also, last night I measured my boxes which turned out to be 26x26x14.
So they are 4cu ft. Still, they sound awesome though.

[yousuredo2]

A Big Brown Truck showed up today...
My ep2500 is here and man is it heavy, can't wait to here it

~ Did the Fan Mod and man what a difference,
I had to place my hand on it to make sure it was on.

[yousuredo2]

What issues are there with running one sealed, and one ported sub at the same time.
I don't see this allot, so I know there must be a reason.

It would be nice to have the chest pounding & room shaking bass

[yousuredo2]

My thread Seams to be loosing steam...
Anyone...
Am I asking dumb questions ?
If so, I apologize.

Also if anyone can explain 'Sub Sonic Filters' alittle
I Know Eq's do some stuff, but what are Sub Sonic Filters ?
Do you buy it/ build it/???

[ThomasW]

A sub sonic filter removes frequencies that are below the threshold of audibility (infrasonic). They can be bought or built. Typically they're used to protect ported subs from unloading if they try to play frequencies below their Fb.

I see no reason to mix sealed and ported subs.

[Deward Hastings]

It seems as though maybe some people are still looking for a............should I say it...............cerwin vega.....................

Yes . . . and there's nothing wrong with that. If you want that "disco punch" for the sock hop (or patio party) you will not get it with "hi-fi" loudspeakers running flat. You may be able to come close with fr equalization, but only if your "good" speakers can play very loud (especially in the lower mid-bass) and even then there's a "coloration" from the original driver combination that you may not be able to get at all.

That's because the "original sound" that you're trying to capture *included the Cerwin Vega sound in the production process* . . . a studio mix was played through such speakers before you heard a thing. If you buy a studio mix recording (about all there is to buy) and play it through "flat" speakers you will not get the "the sound". Even if you boost mid-bass to get the "punch" (assuming your system has the SPL capability) the old "disco box" speakers had a characteristic fr and distortion that is forever associated with that "sound", and which simple equalization can not duplicate.

If you're really serious about it your plan to build a set of disco boxes for just that purpose it is a good, and quite possibly the *only* ultimately satisfying, way to go . . .

[yousuredo2]

A sub sonic filter removes frequencies that are below the threshold of audibility (infrasonic). They can be bought or built. Typically they're used to protect ported subs from unloading if they try to play frequencies below their Fb.

Do all subs Need this...?
More to the point, why would a sub need it(ie: To big of a box or ???) ?
is it something with the sub/ design that dictates it needs for one ?

[---k---]

All ported subs need it for maximum protection. Sealed subs do not need it.

A ported sub needs it, because if you look at a typical cone excursion graphs:



This is for 2 SS RL-p 15's in a 420L box w/ a 22hz Fb. You'll note that the cone is exceeding it's excursion limits at 17hz. And more importantly, it isn't just barely exceeding it and getting into the range between Xmax and Xmech. No, it is blowing past Xmax and likely driving the cone right into the motor - or otherwise known as bottoming and destroying the cone. This is a problem with ported subs. They all do this below Fb. And movies do have content down this low. War of the Worlds has a big spike at 5hz - is it enough to destroy a sub, well that will depend on how loud you turn it up.

Now, there if you tune you're sub low enough, you might be able to get by without a subsonic filter. I think this is one of the things driving bigger lower tuned subs. Here is the excursion graph for my monster:



Again, 2 SS RL-P 15's in a 420L box, but this time tuned to 15.5hz. You'll note that it is not exceeding the cone excursion limits until 13 hz. At this point, we're starting to get to the point where there isn't as much content down this low. Also a lot of DVD players, receivers and such start to roll off a db or two down in this range. So, tuning lower gives more protection, but does not completely protect.

My sub has so much power that the volume level isn't up there. I have never had a problem. That isn't to say that if I were to show off that I would be completely protected. I'm taking some risks and I'm willing to live with them. We typically try and scare first time builders so they don't complain to us when they destroy their very expensive drivers.

[ThomasW]

We have another n00bster sub thread going. Here's a link if you haven't already read it..

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30969&page=1&pp=35