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The new PE flyer has plans for this, and all the drivers are on sale, all Dayton drivers.
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He should have his site updated soon with the design using the Dayton tweeter.
I built a pair when the design first came out, using the Aura tweeters. Right now I'm helping a friend (blktre) with his build of the ZDT3.5. He ordered all the parts today and PE honored the flyer pricing even though the website isn't updated with the new prices. -
Oops, I thought the flyer was going to come out next week or so. I've got just a little bit to finalize and then I'll post the page for that. It was actually done, but I thought of a few things to add. The flyer verbiage is necessarily short by design and lacks some of the extra info I normally post. I'll have some additional info on my blog later tonight or tomorrow.
I think the worst part of that flyer design is that it has my ugly mug posted at the end.
It's a little creepy having my picture widely distributed.
Brent M.'s review got shortened and my favorite part was left out. They were a gift for his dad, and he liked them enough to put his expensive B&W's in storage. Of course we all know it doesn't take much to sound better than a commercial product.
PE gave us good prices on these drivers for this flyer. Those of you thinking of picking up this kit, or even just the drivers for one of the other designs around here, be sure to click on the PE banner above to give HTguide some love.
I'll be back to this thread in a couple days if anyone can think of anything on the page that needs fixing or clarifying.Comment
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Yup. PE honored the prices in the flyer even though their website does not reflect the latest flyer as of yet. My cabinets including the CC are currently built. All i have left to do is have Stangbat help out with the baffles and crossovers. It was actually Stangbat that turned me on to the ZDT3 design. If it wasnt for him, i doubt id of tackled this project.
Congrats to John for getting yet another design out there. These speakers sound incredible and maybe John will have the CC tweeter worked out soon as well! Thanks again John and Erik.........Comment
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John dont sweat the picture. Im impressed you are getting as much done on your site having a new born home. I remember the big adjustment my daughter caused. It was quit a culture shock.Comment
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Finally, a great design featured by PE. Makes it convenient, having all the parts available at PE.
I am extremely close to finishing up my mains. Enjoying my center very much. I hope the crossovers please Zaph a bit more this time. I suspect I was one of the folks he talked about in one of his recent blog posts who made mistakes with crossover builds.
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The only thing that I've wondered about and would like clarified is the off axis performance. The original design had information on vertical polar response and the lobing favoring above the axis, and mentions the on-axis response being +/- 1.5 dB, so I've towed in my speakers. I'm also curious about off axis listening for people that have an HT setup when you have a few people sitting around the TV. I think my speakers sound better being towed in, but tell me if I'm off base or crazy.
Edit: The new design is up! Looks like I'll be staying up a little while longer to read/study.
Last edited by stangbat; 30 May 2008, 15:53 Friday.Comment
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Thanks for updating these John!Comment
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This might be my first DIY, do they have punch?
I'm very close to buying these speaker parts for my first DIY. Love the idea of a fully documented and very thought out design. However, as many speakers as I've owned or auditioned I want speakers with punch because I like hard rock, but don't need to listen to it at ear splitting levels. Many lovely and well designed speakers have left me dry because I can't feel the music and I loose the emotion. Do you think these speakers have punch on rock?
I also love Jazz, classical, vocal, pop - you get the idea. I know 7" drivers may make me happy. I've liked how the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand speakers sound for a compact speaker that has GREAT punch to it. The ZDT3.5 and the Beethoven Baby Grands don't look terribly different with a superficial look at number of drivers, driver sizes, and approximate cabinet size. I know the Vienna Acoustics speaker is poo pooed by my audiophile friend, but it satisfies my unsophisticated tastes. Maybe my DIY venture will change my ways!
If you don't think the ZDt3.5 has the punch I am looking for can you please recommend a different documented design that I can try?
Thank You!Comment
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Nah. If I recall, you had a hookup error but you were able to resolve on your own and make things better. That makes you a hero in my book.Originally posted by WillyDI am extremely close to finishing up my mains. Enjoying my center very much. I hope the crossovers please Zaph a bit more this time. I suspect I was one of the folks he talked about in one of his recent blog posts who made mistakes with crossover builds.
Horizontal off axis in these is nearly perfect and is generally a non-issue. The mid and woofers beaming frequencies are far outside of the range they are used. Vertical is far more important in a design like this. Unlike a normal 7" 2-way, where the horizontal is an issue. Any changes heard off axis is likely just diffraction ripple shifting around a bit. It is good though to have the flexibility to move the system around to your liking.Originally posted by stangbat
Off axis in the center channel is a bit more important in the woofer's range, and that's one of the things I'm doing some additional tests on. With this W-T/M-W design the center probably has a couple dB droop from 500-800 45 degrees off axis, but I'm just guessing. I'll know for sure soon.
"Punch" is a vague and subjective term that is hard to quantify. To some it means more extension, to some it's low distortion and to others it may even be a peaky mis-tuned low end. You'd have to be a little more scientific about what you're looking for before I could make a recommendation. If you want a low distortion midbass, a Seas W18 Excel system might be for you. If you want deep low end extension and a lower distortion upper midrange, a Scan-speak or Usher system might be better. But for now I can't recommend the ZDT3.5 to you.Originally posted by tcsubwooferComment
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How can one predict or calculate the beaming frequency of a given driver?Originally posted by jkrutke
PeterComment
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I feel better now.Nah. If I recall, you had a hookup error but you were able to resolve on your own and make things better. That makes you a hero in my book.
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Originally posted by jkrutke
The best way I can describe what I'm looking for is would this speaker do well at Rock music - Rush, Disturbed - anything that has lots of bass power in live concerts. I have heard other speakers that I consider good rock speakers with good in-room response that don't have huge drivers - namely the Vienna Acoustics Baby Grand speakers which is a bass reflex system with dual 6" bass drivers, 6" mid, and a 1.1" tweeter. I could listen to these speakers without a subwoofer and be happy and I want a main speaker that I can listen to without a subwoofer.
An audiophile friend of mine doesn't like the Vienna acoustics because he claims them to be "psychoacoustic" in that they are artificially tuned non-flat in the bass region to sound bigger than they are (non-flat). Perhaps this is the "peaky, mis-tuned low end"? However, this same friend makes some very good TL speakers out of 5" or 7" drivers that I really enjoy, but I'm left a bit flat and couldn't listen to them without a subwoofer.
I realized many years ago that perhaps I depart from the normal audiophile "flat response" crowd because I never felt that it conveyed the emotion that I wanted for the type of music I like - namely Rock. I've owned 2 pairs of Gershman Avant Garde Speakers, Proac 2.0s, Meadowlark Audio Shearwaters, and currently have a 5-set of Norh 4.0s with a HSU sub which can really rock. Without a subwoofer I was never happy with any of these speakers. When I was talking to a guy at Parts Express he said that a lot of DIY designs they had were not "high Q" designs. He said a lot of detailed speakers for classical and such would have Qs as low as .5 and many main-stream speakers were at .7 or so. He said he like a Rock speaker as well and preferred designs with a Q as high as 1.0 or more. You know, I know Q is a tuning parameter, but that's about it (I’m just getting into this and I don’t understand all the variables yet). So whatever the Vienna Acoustics Speakers did I liked it. I've like many other larger speakers out there, including Lynn Audio and Legacy Whisper speakers, but I'm not going to spend the money for them.
Well, I greatly appreciate your help. I may still build your design because it still looks quite exquisite for the price. I'm very interested in 3-way designs with large bass drivers or multiple bass-drivers. I am also considering the RJB audio Alpheus MKII as the designer seems to like the same type of music I do. Also, thank you for your other recommendations as I will try to research them.Comment
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I don't mean to sound rude, but you are kinda in the wrong place for questions like this. There are lots of audio boards where subjectivity is the bread and butter, but here measurements rule and most people will only present things a fact if they can measure them. Sure, comparisons could be made between commercial speakers and these designs, but unless you have measured the design in question it just isn't the kind of comparison you will usually find here.Originally posted by tcsubwoofer
As for me, I will say this: Zaph is right. Apart from the fact that Zaph is almost always right :W all signs point to these speakers not being right for you. I have heard the VA speakers, but my only experience with Zaph's designs is the BAMTM - but I would guess that he has a pretty consistent "house sound" as the audiophile would say. They are very different speakers. Strangely the "audiophile" in the story has it right; the VA speakers have a very markedly exaggerated mid-bass. That is probably what you are reacting to, and I guarantee that Zaph's design will not deliver that for you (nor, I would guess, would he want it to).
Good luck in your hunting!
-ChadComment
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I agree with Chad. The ZDT3s won't give you what you're looking for. They are pretty darn neutral.Comment
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I've found as I have gotten older I care less about bass "punch" and overall SPLs. I'm not implying you are a teenager or are only interested in "loud", just stating that my tastes have changed and I'm (hopefully) getting around to a point. I'm now looking more for detail and accuracy. The ZDT3.5 has shown me what I've been missing with my previous equipment. They may not have as much bass as what I had before, but I'm finding out that this is because the music isn't supposed to have as much bass as it had on my old equipment. I was overdoing it. I'm also realizing that there is bass in recordings I've never noticed before because I can now hear it with the ZDT3.5. What was once a thump is now the sound of a beater hitting a kick drum followed by the low percussive notes of the drum. Resonant tones aren't there anymore that I had accepted as normal. And that is just the low end.
10-15 years ago I did what most people in their teens and 20s do and pushed in the loudness button, turned up the tone controls, made a "smile" with the eq, shoved the speakers into a corner because that's how you get more bass. Now I realize that all the fiddling I was doing wasn't necessary. Good recordings sound good. Some of the bad recordings I have now really stand out as being bad. But that isn't the fault of the ZDT3.5. To me, the ZDT3.5 does its job by "getting out of the way."
So if you have figured out what you like the way I am, then the ZDT3.5 may not be for you. Nothing wrong with that, to each his own.
Where do you live? Put you location in your profile and you may find someone near you that would allow you to hear them.Comment
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I hope I am not thread craping here but I was wondering if someone could help me. I am going to build the ZDT3.5's and on Mr.Krutke's web site he say's that there will be a center ch. version to follow some day. I was just wondering if it would be wise to order the drivers now while they are on sale?
Thank you BobbyComment
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Yes, most definitely. Check out his blog post about the ZDT3.5:Originally posted by tylerdurden
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Thank you Stang. It was probably a silly question but I wanted to make sure. Jeez I didnt even know he had a blog. Cool! Thanks again!Comment
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Yea, for sure. Stangbat and I have Mr. Krutkes original CC design. I built ahead so all I need is the crossover components for the new Dayton tweeter. Hopefully there isn't a redesign on the CC enclosure. I doubt there will be knowing Mr. Krutke as his enclouser for the ZDT3.5 are used in a few of his designs. My Dayton drivers for the CC arrived today. I saved alot of money buying ahead on those. I know I get impatient waiting for updates, but Mr. Krutke is very good at keeping a timeline....Originally posted by tylerdurdenComment
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I cant wait to start!! I have to get my shop all put back together as we just moved to a new place. I hate moving but the upside is I will now (finally) have a dedicated listening/home theater room. I just ordered everything AND I remembered to put HTGuide as a reference at check out this time. I was tempted to do a faster delivery but this will give me time to put the shop together and finish out the theater room.Comment
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I remember him saying somewhere that the CC enclosure will be the same. There really is no reason it should change anyway.
Give us a shout and we'll help out with any pointers. These were the first speakers each of us have built and if we can do it, you can too. There really weren't any surprises but I did figure out a few things that will make life easier the second time around.Originally posted by tylerdurdenComment
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Thank you. I will definately take you up on some pointers. The only part that scares me are the xovers as I have little expeirience. The cabs are going to be the fun part for me as I have worked with wood my whole life and love doing it. Im trying now to decide what material too use. I hate MDF but I do understand its benefits. I have alot of ply wood around cuz I used to build custom cabinets. So I may use that. I have also been looking at some slabs of exotics that I could mill myself. AHHH decisions decisions!! :B
BobbyComment
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As I've gotten older, I've gone in the other directionOriginally posted by stangbat When I first got into 'audiophilia', I used to listen for the fingers scraping on the strings, the precise imaging, the difference in sheen between the cymbals. But after a while, that turned into an intellectual observation of the music rather than an emotional connection with it. Recently I spent some time listening to this at the VSAC show:
A good acoustic jazz recording reminded me of what a real drumkit and piano feel like (I used to play in a band in college, and was taking piano lessons until a few months ago when we had our first child). Punch? This had punch I'm sure it measures very poorly on many many parameters, but the one thing it did better than almost any other system I've heard, is lifelike dynamics. I've heard the big Kharmas and Wilsons and Avalons, and they're not even close.
It's all a matter of what you're looking for. For me, I'm not satisfied by something that achieves tonal accuracy at the cost of scale and dynamics. Everyone has to find their point of balance with all the compromises that go into every design.
Which is way OT for this thread, and somewhat orthogonal to your point about boosted bass (which I agree with), but I just wanted to mention that there's more to 'punch' than just the loudness control.Comment
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I don't think it would matter. When I was putting the ZDT3 center design into my PE 1ft^3 MTM enclosure, John said that the woofer to mid distance isn't super critical, but the T-M placement is. There is some flexibility I think.Originally posted by Blktre
Tyler- if you have some good ply around, I'd just use that.
You know, I think before long I'll be going down that path. For me, the ZDT3s are as high fidelity as I'll ever likely need or want.As I've gotten older, I've gone in the other directionComment
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BTW, thanks for this reply. This is exactly the information I was looking for.Originally posted by jkrutke
I finished Blktre's crossovers today. Now he just has to get the easy part(s) done. :BComment
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I have auditioned the ZDT3.5
FYI to everyone interested in building these,
stangbat was nice enough to invite me over to audition his Zaph designed ZDT3.5 speakers and the sound was just incredible. I am currently building two other Zaph designed speakers because my designs just never sounded the way I thought they should. I used mathematical formulas and calculations from the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook to design the crossovers and enclosures and had some nice sounding speakers but nothing compared to what I just heard. If you build these speakers as outlined in the Zaph design you will have a grin from ear to ear, you will get Goosebumps.
The imaging is excellent, the bass is tight and so much more bass output than I expected. I like Rock and these sound so good. The sound quality is amazing; you will never regret building these.
You are not going to believe your ears when you hear these!
I am not a salesman, they sound this good.
I had decided to build a Zaph design after reading his website and noticing that he is just plain good at crossover design, has lots of experience, and some measuring equipment. I had never listened to one of his speakers before.
But now I have, and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I made the right choice.
Thank you stangbat for letting me audition your ZDT3.5's. And your build quality is superb. Well Done.Comment
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Quick note to those building the ZDT3.5:
I recently purchased the crossover components from PE, and proceeded to unwind the 0.1mH inductor for the tweeter filter to 0.08 as per John's instructions. I always measure inductors when I receive them (I have a decent multimeter, and the WT3, which are usually spot on to the spec value), and all of the inductors in the order were fine, except the "0.1mH". It was more like 0.88mH, and only needed three turns removed to hit 0.8mH (John says 7 turns I believe).
Anyway, perhaps just component variability, but I thought others might want to know so they don't unwind the tweeter inductor below the desired value.
-EdComment
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Homebrew,Originally posted by Homebrew
great that you shared your impression. I'm sure people interested by this design will find it useful. Can you also tell what design di dyou choose for your self?
Eddo,Originally posted by eddo
I can confirm this is not uncommon. I purchased about 3 different sizes of Solen coils and they were all a little higher then the labelled rating.
PeterComment
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I am building the Waveguide TMM and the BAMTM, I can post some pics of the build. The enclosures are almost done. After hearing stangbat,s ZDT3.5 I bet I get them done faster.
Oh, also, Thanks Zaph!Comment
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Thanks for the kind words regarding my build, Homebrew. I also had not heard a Zaph design before I built mine, and I haven't heard any others. I'm excited that I'll get to hear some more when you get yours done.
I built Blktre's crossovers using PE's parts. I don't have an LCR meter. Maybe I'd better find one to check the inductors.Comment
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i am pondering which CC desighn to do and this looks pretty good. If I picked up half the Kit at parts express would that be what I need for the CC? are they nearly the same? Am I missing a website the has the CC's schematics?
I plan to make a purchase at the tent sale this weekend.Comment
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The CC design has not been released yet. A comment by John on this forum a few days ago makes it sound like it should be released within the next week. If you are going to pick up parts this weekend, it is safe to pick up everything but the crossover components. Although the crossovers will probably not be much different than the towers, we just don't know for sure what the final design will be. BTW, pick up four port tubes. Krutke recommends joining the tubes together so there is a flare on each end, therefore the quantity needed is double what the site puts into your shopping cart.Originally posted by Raptor550Comment
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I think the tweeters are out of stock still. At least at last check today they where. The site says they are due back in stock 7-17.Comment
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Scoop
Center design should be posted today or tomorrow.
The sealed version is quite small, BAMTT size.Comment
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Hello.
I am interested in building the ZDT3.5
But I have a question before beginning: is there a reason to go with ZRT 2.5 instead? Price is higher with ZRT, but what is the gain?
I am listening to rock (60-90s), jazz and classical music. Room is 5x6m (~16.4x19.6ft)
ThanksComment
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I haven't heard either one, but the Revelator system is likely to be cleaner (lower distortion) and a bit smoother than the Dayton. Nothing against the Dayton drivers, they are good performing drivers at their price (or higher), but of the Revelators, Zaph said, "These are a couple of the best performing speakers at any price." The Revelator woofers show a bit lower distortion on the bottom end than the RS180s in Zaph's comparison.
Is the performance gain worth the money? That's your decision, made more difficult by not being able to audition them first.Comment
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You will not be unhappy with ZDT3.5s
I have not built Zaph's exact design. I built a version with RS225s since I had some around at the time and wanted to try the RS52. They sounded great. For my HT I decided to build a modified version of the ZDC. They are in ported enclosures and sound great for music. With dual RS315HF subs for movies there is a lot of bass.
My computer speakers, that I am listening to now, are a pair of Zaph's ZBM4s. They are not popular because they do not cost enough, but they are amazing.Attached FilesComment
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Modula MTMs use RS180s
I went to Zaph's web site and it did not look to me like the Scans were lower distortion. If they are it isn't much at five times the price.
It occurred to me that the ZDT3.5 uses the same drivers on the low end as the Modula MTMs which have been praised by many. I have not built them but I have built the Nat Ps which are very good as are the Modula MTs.Comment
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I listen to the same type music as you do and as I am sure the ZRT's are great speakers, I wouldnt give up my ZDT's for the price. For the extra expense I would have a hard time moving to the ZR's.Comment
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8" driver sound more logical to me than 7" when paired with RS52. But WAF is lowerOriginally posted by Ray_D
Did someone tried using RS52 in MTM configuration. I suppose the baffle of RS52 has to be cut so it ca be closer to tweeter.Comment
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I wonder if Dayton RSS210H can go high enough to be used with RS52. 700-800Hz LR4 active crossover.Comment
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Angular dispersion
Originally posted by tpsorin8" driver sound more logical to me than 7" when paired with RS52. But WAF is lower
Did someone tried using RS52 in MTM configuration. I suppose the baffle of RS52 has to be cut so it ca be closer to tweeter.
The RS52 could be used as a tweeter if you did not want to go too high. The main problem which can not be dealt with in the crossover is that the dome is too large for good off axis output at high frequencies. That's why pairing it with the small tweeter makes sense. At the high crossover frequency, the tweeters harmonics are quickly beyond audible. With either RS180s or RS225s on the low end, this is an outstanding performer at any price.Comment
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I don't want to use RS52 as tweeter. I am asking about using 2xRS52 per side to get more dynamics.Originally posted by Ray_DComment
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Dynamics?
What do you mean by dynamics? Do you mean you want it to play louder? How loud do you want to play?Originally posted by tpsorinComment
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