Nat P's for surround use, in my room?

[Scott Simonian]

Hello there fellas. My home theater is going thru some big upgrades this summer. Currently working on a 100" 16:9 acoustic transparent screen. Soon to get a newer receiver with latest audio codecs and thought now is a good time to upgrade the speakers as well.

Currently I have a pair of Adire 281's and a LCC (the original) for the front three. For many years I have been using cheapo KLH speakers for surrounds. I have been tired of the KLH's for about as long as I have had them. Sure, they have more impact than the mini surrounds I had about 10 years ago but they still sound awful.

Sorry for the rant...Ill get to what I need to ask now.

I have been thinking about upgrading my speakers to be all matching but I can't do that anymore. All the Adire speakers up front are discontinued and I have found no place that sells the kits anymore. I thought, maybe Ill just keep the fronts for a while longer and just upgrade the surrounds. I would like to keep the dynamic ability of the surrounds to be close to my fronts so I thought that the Natalie P would be a perfect choice. Not quite the same as the 281's but as close as I can get for now. If I like the NatP's and want to upgrade the fronts I could make those NatP's too and really have them match for once.

The question I have is if anyone has used the Nat P for surround use and what you think of them. I know there is a onwall/inwall xover for them so somebody is doing it. The problem I have here is that I have a narrow room and I am not sure if that will be a big issue or not. My room is pretty narrow, just under 11 feet wide.

Here's an old picture of where I sit and one of the 7.1 setups I tried.



I looks a little different now but you get an idea of where I sit with the picture. What you can't see is where I want my Nat P's to go if I can use them. That little clock on top of the dvds is about where the NatP would go but about 6' off the floor. Thats about where the surrounds would go. Plus, those KLH's in the back are about where I'd put the rear surrounds but up higher on the wall. I think that would be okay for the NatP's but I wasn't sure if they would work so close on the side walls. I'll take a new pic thats better. Let me know what you guys think.

Anyway, sorry for being so drawn out. Just trying to help you get where I am trying to go.

Those walls where I want the Nat P's to go needs some serious acoustic absorption too...awful awful 'slap echo'. I may to fix that before the new speakers get built.

[ThomasW]

These are going to be in boxes or built in?

[Scott Simonian]

Hi, Thomas!

Omg, I left out that "little" detail. Yes, the plan was to use the curved PE cabinets that they sell. As slick as it would be to go inwall, I can't have them be that permanent. So I am looking to use those cabs with these particular speaker mounts on PE. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=240-710

I would really like to use those with the curved cabinet but I fear that the combination may not work. It would be really cool to have NatP's as my surrounds.

[PoorboyMike]

I bought those same mounts for a set a NatPs. I haven't tried them out yet, but I will say that I'm surprised at how small they are and question weather or not they will hold them up. I'm not saying they wont do the trick, but I was hoping they would be a little beefier for something with a 50lb rating.

[Scott Simonian]

I bought those same mounts for a set a NatPs. I haven't tried them out yet, but I will say that I'm surprised at how small they are and question weather or not they will hold them up. I'm not saying they wont do the trick, but I was hoping they would be a little beefier for something with a 50lb rating.

Oh did you? Do you plan on installing them anytime soon? If you do, please post your feelings about those mounts. I thought they looked a little small in the picture too. I just hope that they don't have an inflated weight rating.

Looks like if I can't go with the NatP's (I soooo want to use them) I will go with these: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=302-961

[kingpin]

These are the only decent speaker mounts I found. In fact they are amazing and heavy duty. Holding up a pair of 35 lb speakers with ease. All steel except for the knobs. They have a steel spline in the middle where the srcews lock onto. There are 4 knobs in total to make sure it's locked in place.

http://www.htd.com/speaker-cables-accessories/Wall-Mount-Speaker-Brackets/BR1-Heavy-Duty-Brackets

Images not available

[Scott Simonian]

Yeah, those do look pretty heavy duty. Cool. Another speaker mount to look out for. Guess that wont be much of a problem then.

The main obstacle is still remains though...would it be a good idea to have a NatP at my sides when my room is barely 11' wide at the seat? They will obviously be off the floor but would the depth of these, plus, the MTM nature of the NatP be an unwise decision for surrounds in my room?

[Geoff Gunnell]

Could you be more specific what your concern with MTMs at under 2 meters is?

If it's woofer combing, you should be able to place/aim the Nats so the entire couch is within +/- 15 degrees . . .

I've not heard the Nats, but I have used other MTMs as surrounds and the most noticable problem (with any unidirectional surrounds) in a narrow room is that some seating positions are MUCH closer to one surround than the other, making level settings a compromise and locallization next to impossible to avoid. The DIY community rarely posts designs for multi-directional speakers like the Axiom QS-8s, which are widely acknowleged to perform well in placements such as yours. One exception is Danny Richie at gr-research.

If you want to see what a more diffuse sound field is like, try ceiling-bouncing the speakers you have. It helps to have per-channel multi-band EQ.

For multichannel music, the Nat's should be excellent as direct radiators, and you can always ceiling bounce them if you need a more diffuse rear sound field for movies. Also, if you've never had five (or seven) IDENTICAL speakers (not just voiced alike) you are in for a sound field treat, and the Nats are affordable enough to make that possible.

[Scott Simonian]

Oops. Im sorry I wasnt more specific earlier.

My main concern is with this nearfield setting I have that the multiple drivers may not be completely blended together at this distance. I love MTM's and would like to use them all around but I was worried in this narrow room that it would not work. If I use NatP's on the side they will be pretty close to the listening position. Its a tough call but I know I want really great performance from every speaker.

I have looked into some more diffuse speakers out there. Found a few that I would consider but having matching speakers makes that tough. I heard that the NatP's are rather neutral sounding and I think that would be good for my Adire speakers up front. Have looked at some from Danny Richie or even something like those from Klipsch. The Klipsch would certainly not blend with my Adire's, I am sure.

Quite a head scratcher this speaker upgrade path has been for me...

Hell, to be honest, I'd really like to build a triple set of line array speakers for the front and have some surrounds that would sound similar. *sigh* Don't know if that is even possible. The array I really want are from a company that starts with a 'G' and the speakers start with an 'A' and end with a 'LS'. Too bad I can't find them in singles.

Gah! Ranting about line arrays now...

Currently, I have no way of trying out my surrounds pointed anyway other than forward as they are tall (4 feet tall) floorstanders. My listening habits are mostly movies and some games. I don't listen to music much more in my theater and when I did it was purely 2ch stuff.

This sure is tough. I fear that I may have to upgrade to a whole Klipsch setup *gasp!* or just go with those smaller, 'Encore' kits from Parts Express. They should sound pretty good, just not as dynamic as my fronts will be. That may just be the crux of this room until I move somewhere else...

[Geoff Gunnell]

Scott, you were on the right track to begin with (IMO)

I've used MTM's with more spacing between the woofers and far less sophisticated crossovers than the Natalies and not had any issues with driver integration as close a 5 feet.

If you are worried about driver integration from an MTM. don't even THINK about line arrays -- seriously, your room as a little small for distributed source speakers (IMO).

Hang a 4x4 or 4x8 foot panel on the wall at each end of the couch (GIK Acoustics is one reasonably priced source or you can DIY), and cover those sliding doors with something -- if the doors are used, a pull cord drapery rod with some heavy lined 'blackout' drapes will help.

If you've got enough money to afford better than 5 Natalies, go with 5 Neo D's.

As far as the K word -- stick with the ones Paul designed (IMO)