Advice on building a set of mains!

[Cataclysm]

This Friday I recently polished off a 15" Rythmik sub build, so now I am look at my antiquated main speakers as the next task on my "hit list". Thusly, I have gone through pretty much every build documented in the Mission Accomplished section, as well as the DIY speaker guide thread somewhere on here, but I am still left a bit out in left field.

I guess the issue I am having is a matter of reference, and never having the privilege of auditioning any of the projects on here makes it hard for me to mentally stack up a build versus something mass-produced, so here-in lies my question:

At the moment I am looking to either buy the latest revision of Paradigm's Studio 100's, OR (preferably), build something myself that will match our out-do them in a comparably sized enclosure. I was thinking of the Khanspires or Lineup-Maxx's, but maybe one of you guys can point me in the right direction. :T
(I guess I should also add that this is a 2 channel only deal)

~Any input is greatly appreciated!

[cjd]

Well, I might be able to help you.

My budget (~$250-300 for the pair depending on crossover and tweeter choice - I've WAY too many variants) beat out Paradigm Studio 40's without a look back.

I've not heard the Maxx's but I did hear a pair of the little TM's Ryan built. Nice sound. I think I prefer the RS150 (!) midrange quality... or I'm just that much more used to it (uh, let's see... my MTM's in one room, just used the RS150 for my HT mid... mains have the RS180 which I don't like as much as the 150...) Ok, yeah. I'll accept that it's a familiarity thing. Seriously, either the Maxx or the Khanspire should be a pretty incredible system.

C

[Jed]

If you decide on a Lineup Maxx, I'd go for the MaxxL16 version. I've actually toyed with the idea of plugging in the Seas 27DXT in that design as a tweeter alternative. Let me know if you are interested.

The pair of L16s do really well in a sealed box and combined with the W4-1337 it is some of the best midrange I've ever heard (including systems with Accuton Seas etc etc).

The nice thing about the MaxxL16 is the small footprint and great midrange performance.

[---k---]

My budget (~$250-300 for the pair depending on crossover and tweeter choice - I've WAY too many variants) beat out Paradigm Studio 40's without a look back.

Yep:

Not a good photo, but you see there: Ascend 340SE, Studio 40s, DynAudio 42s


Any of the big Mission Accomplished speakers should make you happier than the Studio 100s. However, I've owner Atoms and Titans and always thought highly of the Studios and thought they would be in my future. They have a very different sound to them. Most of the speakers here are designed to be very flat and neutral, which is technically better. But, it if you're really into Paradigm, there is a slim chance you may not be happy. But, I doubt that.

[ahaik]

I had the studio 100's V.2, some consider them better sounding then later versions.
They where no match for my Modula MT's (except for lower end extension) and not even the Microbes (www.rjbaudio.com).
After I built the Statements I didn't even bother comparing them, there was no point !!
They went Ebay the next day :B
Any of the speakers in the Mission Accomplished section would beat the Studio 100's easily :T just pick one.

Asi.

[Cataclysm]

I enjoy the sound of the Studio 100's, but I only used them to help establish a ballpark in-terms of capability and quality, so I don't think I'll be disappointed with any of the offerings on here. :W

Right now I am seriously liking the looks of the MaxxL16. The footprint is actually a lot smaller than I was anticipating, the driver load-out seems superb, as does the aesthetics of such an enclosure.

Couple more questions (and probably not the last!):

1) Would I be best to go sealed or vented? I was favoring sealed just by virtue of having a very musical 15" sub to augment the hampered low end extension, but I've been wrong before...

2) For someone not well versed with the Seas 27DXT, what are the potential benefits of this tweeter vs. the current?
(You've peaked my interest on this one)

3) These speakers get used for entertainment purposes on the main floor of my house, and as such they require some decent SPL output. I can easily swing enough depth to double the volume for the woofer compartment, so would it be feasible to run 4 L16's without having to re-design the whole crossover?

~Great insight so far, I really appreciate it.

[Jed]

1) Would I be best to go sealed or vented? I was favoring sealed just by virtue of having a very musical 15" sub to augment the hampered low end extension, but I've been wrong before...

2) For someone not well versed with the Seas 27DXT, what are the potential benefits of this tweeter vs. the current?
(You've peaked my interest on this one)

3) These speakers get used for entertainment purposes on the main floor of my house, and as such they require some decent SPL output. I can easily swing enough depth to double the volume for the woofer compartment, so would it be feasible to run 4 L16's without having to re-design the whole crossover?

~Great insight so far, I really appreciate it.

1.) Go sealed if you want to use your subwoofer
2.) The new Seas DXT tweeter has superb off axis response, and when the response is flattened using a passive crossover, it has very low distortion. Even lower if we fit a ferrofluid motor on it, as John Krutke pointed out.
3.) If you want to do a MaxxL16 with 4 woofers that can be arranged. If you are serious lets start a build thread as I've been planning an "ultimate" version of the Lineup series for some time now.



Pictured above are a few concept drawings I played around with. The left speaker could be built sealed, but if you want to go ported, the L16s need a fairly large box. Thus, a much taller box is required to get more volume. The advantage of the L16 over say an RS180 is the lower distortion from 50-400hz, if using them in a 3-way, like I've done in the Lineup MaxxL16 and MaxxL16CC. The T/S parameters of the L16 seem to suggest a sealed alignment would work well. I've heard it both ways and you won't really need a sub if going ported. They go extremely low for their size. The problem then becomes power handling even though they have 6mm xmax, the limited Sd of the driver makes reproducing very low frequencies quite demanding. Though a pair of L16s will play Very Loud- The more the better in my opinion, even with a sub. That said I was very happy with just a pair of them. I'm just curious to see what is possible if taking it to the next level.

Jed

[Dean100]

I presently have the Studio 100's V2 and since completing the Nat P's I don't even listen to the Studios anymore. :T

The Nat P's have a far better soundstage and just flat out sound better. Fairly soon, I will try to decide what to build next. But it will probably be one of the "larger" designs here at HTG.

BTW, if you know anyone who wants to buy my Studio 100's send them my way.

[Cataclysm]

If you want to do a MaxxL16 with 4 woofers that can be arranged. If you are serious lets start a build thread as I've been planning an "ultimate" version of the Lineup series for some time now.

Right now I am still in the planning phase, trying to put feelers out, getting an idea of what kind of visual design I can forge to match what I already have, and all the while still satisfying the demands of the drivers. I would hold off on making a build thread until something tangible materializes from my end, or anyone else’s for that matter.

When I have 14 glorious drivers lined up like soldiers ready to commit sonic heresy on my dinner table, that’s when things are 100% serious and committed.

On the flip-side:
I still have to convince my girlfriend that DIY is the way to go. As much as I *know* all the ups and downs, it's sometimes hard to get that better half on board. :rofl:

She's still pushing for the 100's because they're marked down to $1500 for the pair, and as best as I can figure, a pair of 'Lineup Ultima' towers will cost an estimated $1650 (on the high side) for a fully completed pair, finished to my standards, from scratch. Now although that isn't a really fair comparison, it is a necessary one.

[Operandi]

She's still pushing for the 100's because they're marked down to $1500 for the pair, and as best as I can figure, a pair of 'Lineup Ultima' towers will cost an estimated $1650 (on the high side) for a fully completed pair, finished to my standards, from scratch. Now although that isn't a really fair comparison, it is a necessary one.

I haven't heard the Maxx but I doubt Paradigm has anything that could really compare favorably to any of the Maxxs.

In addition to the satisfaction of having built them yourself you will have something truly unique. I think as long as you have the ability, resources, and time, DIY is the way to go.

[Cataclysm]

I haven't heard the Maxx but I doubt Paradigm has anything that could really compare favorably to any of the Maxxs.

In addition to the satisfaction of having built them yourself you will have something truly unique. I think as long as you have the ability, resources, and time, DIY is the way to go.

Oh absolutely, and if it were just myself that I needed to satisfy, I'd be impatiently waiting for a nice fat order of parts right now.

[cjd]

Somewhere out there someone compared the big 3-ways I did (the "big brother" of the Khanspires, so to speak) with commercial speakers. I believe he found things to get interesting and competitive when he finally got in the $20,000+ range on commercial speaks.

That may or may not compare. It's tough. But Brian Bunge was selling his marked down to only $1500 if I remember! Beautiful cherry veneer, high-polish black baffle.

[ahaik]

That may or may not compare. It's tough. But Brian Bunge was selling his marked down to only $1500 if I remember! Beautiful cherry veneer, high-polish black baffle.

That's a real steal, it doesn't get any better then that.
The only difference is the absence of a sticker with a famous name (and SQ).
I sold my Studio 100's, used the money toward the Statements and had some left for equipment :B

[Cataclysm]

I believe he found things to get interesting and competitive when he finally got in the $20,000+ range on commercial speaks.

But, but, but! Everyone knows boutique speakers use flux capacitors in their crossover networks and enclosures made of materials like "-X-" and Unobtanium. :rf

I always thought it would be cool to have an amp that went to 11 though, Heh.

[cjd]

My amp goes to 11. Well, the pre-amp. Amps just have a power switch.

[Jed]

Rig

When I have 14 glorious drivers lined up like soldiers ready to commit sonic heresy on my dinner table, that’s when things are 100% serious and committed.

'Lineup Ultima' towers will cost an estimated $1650 (on the high side) for a fully completed pair, finished to my standards, from scratch. Now although that isn't a really fair comparison, it is a necessary one.

Madisound is increasing the cost of SEAS standard drivers by 15% March 1st. So for 8 L16s that's about an additional $90.

I guess the bottom line is if you go this route I'd do it soon.

[Brian Bunge]

Somewhere out there someone compared the big 3-ways I did (the "big brother" of the Khanspires, so to speak) with commercial speakers. I believe he found things to get interesting and competitive when he finally got in the $20,000+ range on commercial speaks.

That may or may not compare. It's tough. But Brian Bunge was selling his marked down to only $1500 if I remember! Beautiful cherry veneer, high-polish black baffle.

Yep, they're very nice speakers. Unfortunately, if someone doesn't take 'em off my hands soon they will be no more. I'll gut them and re-use the drivers (except for the RS270's) and crossovers for my next pair of speakers. I guess the cabinets will make for some nice cat condos. I imagine they'd probably ruin the finish though!

[JonP]

Madisound is increasing the cost of SEAS standard drivers by 15% March 1st. So for 8 L16s that's about an additional $90.

I guess the bottom line is if you go this route I'd do it soon.

Haven't they done their price hike already? I noticed today that a 27TDFC was $35...

Ah... no, just crept up a bit since I last bought some, just looked:

"SEAS Price Increase

SEAS price increase and statement from Seas, “Effective at the end of February 2008, prices on SEAS products will increase approximately 15% for Prestige drivers, and 10% for Excel drivers....."

New prices will be in effect on March 1st. If you’ve been holding off on that Seas kit, now is the time to buy."

Bummer...

[Cataclysm]

Simple, buy your drivers elsewhere. :T

I support Parts Express even though I take it up the butt for shipping, but they're a sponsor of this site so it's worth it. For everything else, a local audio shop here has always been more than willing to outsource and get OEM drivers for me as "replacements".

[Jed]

Simple, buy your drivers elsewhere. :T

Madisound is the main importer and the problem is the decline in the US dollar, so everyone is going to be more expensive for reselling SEAS drivers. PE doesn't carry them. Maybe Solen will be cheaper if you live in Canada.

[Operandi]

Madisound is the main importer and the problem is the decline in the US dollar, so everyone is going to be more expensive for reselling SEAS drivers. PE doesn't carry them. Maybe Solen will be cheaper if you live in Canada.

Have Peerless and Vifa been going up? I haven't noticed but then I've been buying mostly Dayton and Tang Band stuff recently.

[Jed]

Have Peerless and Vifa been going up? I haven't noticed but then I've been buying mostly Dayton and Tang Band stuff recently.

The biggest price increases I've seen have been from Accuton and Seas.