About Face ..... ;^)

[ThomasW]

Gees a good double entendre just can't be beat... :B

Act 1 Scene 1,

Time 19:15 (aka zero really dark 15) , Weather, light snow, 25 degrees F, Location, Casa de' Tomas'....

Lights!, Camera!, Action!

BOOM! (loud noise), followed by another BOOM! (yep second loud noise) followed by Ding Dong! (door bell)....

Open front door to find....FedEx truck at idle, belching diesel fumes, driver yells out BE CAREFUL THEY'RE HEAVY!

Look down, at my feet are two large boxes with unknown contents...

Fade to black.....

Act 1 Scene 2

Location, dining room table, yours truly armed with handful of Motrin and a box cutter....

Open the shipping box and you're greeted by...guess what?

Yep..... another box.

Open the second box then you see a 9" embossed logo in the top plate of the amp.....very tricky to photograph... 8O



At this point I'll steal one of Kevin's photographs since it's quite good...



Some thoughts....

Heavy,
Cool blue indicator LEDs
Heavy
It's really never off idle driving 4-12"s.
Heavy
Fans run constantly regardless of amp temp, so it needs to be somewhere other than the listening room (this one is in the basement)
Oh yea, BTW, did I say heavy..

I'll run this one in for a few days powering the sub, then see what it sounds like driving higher frequencies....

[---k---]

Nice. Those sure are pretty.

[cjd]

Theoretically, one (smaller) should be sitting on my doorstep as well. We'll see if I have the whole kit'n'kaboodle waiting for my leisure time to appear.

C

[Kevin Haskins]

I gave up trying to photograph that top.

It takes someone with more skill than I have. It looks pretty good and my pictures don't.

[cjd]

I'll try. SHould be a fun challenge.

IF I get my amp, that is. FedEx officially does not have a clue how to properly track a package.

Tempest-X is a beast. Very nice stuff!

C

[JimS]

I'll run this one in for a few days powering the sub, then see what it sounds like driving higher frequencies....

Technically is it still cheating if you just "break it in" before christmas and don't really use it for the higher frequencies?!?!?

Merry xmax to you . . . :B

[mazurek]

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on pairing a Crown XTI series amp (with integrated DSP) with the Exodus subwoofers instead of say a Face amp and Woofer Widget (or Behringer EQ). I'm exploring subwoofer options that would complement my existing system. I'm a little tired of building all the circuitry myself, and I've been trying to see what I could DIY with minimal custom equipment and extra boxes laying around.

[Kevin Haskins]

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on pairing a Crown XTI series amp (with integrated DSP) with the Exodus subwoofers instead of say a Face amp and Woofer Widget (or Behringer EQ). I'm exploring subwoofer options that would complement my existing system. I'm a little tired of building all the circuitry myself, and I've been trying to see what I could DIY with minimal custom equipment and extra boxes laying around.

No problem at all. Their DSP has four bands of PEQ. They don't have an integrated measurement system nor do they have some of the subwoofer specific functions but I think they have a general LP/HP filter in addition to the PEQ.

If your using a ported design check and make sure they have some way of setting a subsonic filter. Other than that it should do the trick.

[Biff]

Photography in 3 dimensions

That relief logo is very cool and deserves a cool shot. All it takes is to get your light source off axis and enough of it to dominate over your ambient level. Turn off the on camera flash for a starter, unless it has a swivel or bounce function. If it does you can put a white card, cutting board, etc. off camera to the top of the image and direct your flash there. Even better, get thee to a window with direct light coming in and angle that surface nearly oblique to the sunshine and get some serious shadows into those areas. The best readability is usually with light source to the top left giving a neat drop shadow down and to the right.

If, in spite of your best efforts this doesn't work, you can send them postage paid to my studio and, for the sake of the audio brotherhood, I will photograph them for you. Of course this will entail many hours bringing them up to operating temaparatures so that metal surfaces have their true shape and the LEDs are at their correct color temparature. This may require shipping us your speakers also, as we have only about 4 or 5 sets whose impedance profile may or may not match yours or the manufacturers and may cause the electronics to run in a different temp causing deflection of the surface panels and cooling surfaces.

I realize this endeavor may take days, weeks, or months, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make. As you may or may not know, we "hear" with our eyes, just as it is said we "eat" with our eyes. In order to verify this statement I suggest you close your eyes and picture Angelina singing the national anthem, then repeat, picturing Rosie doing same.

Email for our shipping address.

[---k---]

:rofl:

[cjd]

Logo shouldn't present *that* much of a difficulty Bent. At least, if I still remember my way around a photo studio. It has been a few years though... :P

C

[ThomasW]

The pic was taken at night using only the overhead light in the dining room and the flash in the camera. If I take the time to setup proper lighting equipment, I'm pretty sure I can get a better one.... :T

Thanks anyway Biff... :B

[cjd]

Yup. Front-lighting won't cut it. A nice oblique lighting angle should do it well.

Mine showed up today. FedEx guy was driving a Budget rental truck.

[JamesK]

Try raking the light across from the side. Anytime you have a relief type object, it's easier to photograph by creating shadows. Let me know if that helps.

[Kevin Haskins]

Just a note, Face has extended my special pricing on these amps. I'm hoping it will be permanent. Due to dealer policies I'm unable to list them on my web site @ anything other than full retail but my "special" price is >40% off the listed price.

I've been very happy with the product quality and Face Audio as a company. They are very responsive to any problems I've had and have stood behind the product 100%.

[cjd]

Mine should finally get wired up Thursday or Friday.

Last night I was tearing into the wall installing the mains boxes (speakers) and wall bracing (access to the back of the wall and no drywall on that side means I'm building the studs to support this perfectly) and had music cranked with the lowly 240@ amp and single coils on just two of the four woofers. My wife came home and mentioned she heard the bass sitting in the driveway waiting for the garage door to open...

yeahhhhh.

I think I'm going to run this in "balanced" mode with a pair of Tempest-X's off each channel rather than trying to run it bridged. 450W for two should be more than enough I think.

Can't wait to fire the whole works up.

C

[Kevin Haskins]

I knew you needed that extra output.

The Tempest-X is pretty efficient. I list the efficiency in the numbers which is 1W/1M but most vendors are listing the sensitivity @ 2.83V. Its a trick to make customers think they are getting a more "efficient" subwoofer. You can add about 1.5-2db to the listed 87.2db 1W/1M number if your listing sensitivity and 99% of customers don't know the difference. Hey... maybe I should do that! ;-)

Long story short.... it doesn't take much in an IB to get a lot of output from them.

[cjd]

The reason I want the headroom: I like listening to organ music, and have a couple recordings done in Sydney on the 64' pipes... 8Hz. Plus I like that half-harmonic to be present. Because, you know, I can tell... (oh my, what's that behind you?! hmm... must have been nothing...)

uh... what was I saying?

Oh yeah. I'm not even getting that kind of sensitivity right now! Just one coil. And just two of the drivers, too! :lol:

I'm doomed.

C

[littlesaint]

Kevin,

Slightly OT, but any update on the Woofer Widget?

[Kevin Haskins]

We are working on it. My software guru is at CES this week. I'm finalizing some documentation and I should have some of the first units ready to ship soon.

The project has gone well considering the complexity. I'm sure some software gotchas will jump up once we start shipping early versions but it works amazingly well. Its a fun project to work on and I hope to extend it into a plate amp and add some additional features by 2nd Qtr this year.

[littlesaint]

We are working on it. My software guru is at CES this week. I'm finalizing some documentation and I should have some of the first units ready to ship soon.

The project has gone well considering the complexity. I'm sure some software gotchas will jump up once we start shipping early versions but it works amazingly well. Its a fun project to work on and I hope to extend it into a plate amp and add some additional features by 2nd Qtr this year.

Will the units be tweakable (warranty void type stuff) using the OEM software kit or are you locking them down?

[Kevin Haskins]

We will probably have software updates, but at this point, we don't have plans for additional "software modules". There are problems in that the firmware often needs to be updated to achieve some different electrical transfer functions. Its also hard to see the installed user base getting large enough to justify significant development time for anything other than the standard interface.

I'll have some firmware/software combinations that use my product line. Some examples are pre-loaded software curves for small-box Shiva-X & Tempest-X solutions that also utilize our soft-clipping circuit. I also forsee having a pre-determined dipole EQ curve for some of the dipole models and using the limiting function to control overdriving them.

Having such tools available for everyone creates a technical support nightmare because you need to have a good understanding of both the software/hardware limitations as well as a very good understanding of the acoustical/mechanical system of the transducer/enclosure. Its something we will offer for OEMs but not support at the DIY level.

[Dennis H]

So Chris or Thomas, how do they sound driving a fullrange main? Inquiring minds and all that.

[Kevin Haskins]

Yea... let us know what you think guys!

I'm kind of biased but my sounds pretty good. I have zero issues with running them full-range.

[cjd]

Oh, I forgot I was going to to install this on my mains and try it out. Thanks for the reminder!

C

[---k---]

Yeah, lug it back up stairs and hook it up to the big 3-ways! Inquiring minds want to know.

[cjd]

Well, that's the only place I actually can do full balanced signal. but I actually *can* - so... yeah. I will try to remember.

C

[ThomasW]

I prefer to 'run in' amps for a longtime before doing any critical listening.

One of my Face amps has been powering the small IB since 12/14 (roughly 300+hrs of operation). Not quite Ayre's 500hr recommended burn-in time but probably enough...

Later today I'll play musical chairs and move that unit so it's powering the top end drivers of the Isiris prototype. That should be fairly revealing of what it sounds like for full-range use.

[Dennis H]

Later today I'll play musical chairs and move that unit so it's powering the top end drivers of the Isiris prototype. That should be fairly revealing of what it sounds like for full-range use.

While you're at it, how about trying the DEQ2496 in there as well in straight passthrough? It's a tough job but you're our designated crash test dummy, Thomas!

[CraigJ]

Later today I'll play musical chairs and move that unit so it's powering the top end drivers of the Isiris prototype. That should be fairly revealing of what it sounds like for full-range use.

arty:
Good luck with the DCX.

[Operandi]

How is the active cooling in these in terms of noise? I assume the fan/s speed is thermally controlled?

[ThomasW]

Round One....

For a few days now I've been playing around with the NeoDcc. They were fired up for the RMAF demo then put in storage. I took pulled them out of storage on monday to give them a good listen..

With an Ayre V5-xe powering the NeoDcc (~150Hz and up), I wanted to go in and decrease the amount of mid and tweeter attenuation since they seemed a too 'soft' in the top end.

With the F1200ST in the loop my reaction is exactly the opposite, I would go in and increase the HF attenuation since the top end output seems hot. There's an interesting 'transparency' to this amp, but there's also a 'spitty' or 'ssssss-sibilant' edge to the HF.

For a final comparison I put an Aragon 8008BB on the Neo's. Like the F1200ST this amp had more mid/treble but without the sibilance.

All the above was done using a single CD Laurie Anderson's "Strange Angels" as the test disc. This isn't a world class recording but I have every nuance of the disc memorized.

Before doing further testing I decided to change from single stereo active XO to dual mono crossovers to eliminate any potential crosstalk. To get the system operational in this configuration I need to make up some more balanced ICs. So the amp comparison using better source recordings is postponed until the cables are done.

Other than output changes to balance the gain differences, nothing in the system was changed when the amps were swapped. From source components to power amps the system runs fully balanced.

Dennis,

I'll see about the DEQ when I'm done playing with the power amps. It's not real easy to add another EQ into the system. Currently there's no EQ on the top end and there's no space in the rack to put in another piece of gear.

[kingpin]

I wish one of you genius's lived in or ever travelled to Ontario. I so badly want and need somebody to help me fine tune all my audio stuff.

So if anyone is ever going through Toronto get a hold of me and I will make it worth your while to drop in here.

I still drop by here everyday and read about things I have no clue what you guys are talking about. I haven't forgot you guys and how much you helped me with my projects. My place is yours. Just getting my sh!t together hopefully.

Mike

[Brian Bunge]

Thomas (or anyone else),

Can you give us some idea of how loud the fans are on the F1200 compared to say an EP2500?

[ThomasW]

These are the first fan cooled amps I've owned or heard so I have no basis for comparison.

The fans on one of my F1200ST amps runs quite a bit louder than the fans on the other amp even when there's no load. I'll put a SPL meter on both later today.

[Brian Bunge]

Cool! (no pun intended)

Thanks, Thomas.

[ThomasW]

1" from one fan on each amp

Amp 1 75dB-76dB
Amp 2 80dB-81dB

These are unweighted measurements. The amps are on a heavy shelving unit, 3' out from the wall

Since the amps never get warm I'd love to swap the fans out for quieter units. Unfortunately the amps have a holographic tape seals on each side of the top. Removing/breaking the seals voids the warranty.

[---k---]

Removing/breaking the seals voids the warranty.

Ahhhh, you said these were quality units. You'll never need that warrenty. :P

[Kevin Haskins]

1" from one fan on each amp

Amp 1 75dB-76dB
Amp 2 80dB-81dB

These are unweighted measurements. The amps are on a heavy shelving unit, 3' out from the wall

Since the amps never get warm I'd love to swap the fans out for quieter units. Unfortunately the amps have a holographic tape seals on each side of the top. Removing/breaking the seals voids the warranty.

I've ordered a pair of low-noise fans. I'm also seeing what I can do about warranty issues related to customers changing fans. Most vendors won't give something in writing but I should be able to strong-arm them into honoring any warranty issue as long as the failure wasn't related to changing the fans.

[chasw98]

[QUOTE=ThomasW]1" from one fan on each amp

Amp 1 75dB-76dB
Amp 2 80dB-81dB

These are unweighted measurements. The amps are on a heavy shelving unit, 3' out from the wall

[QUOTE]

Those are almost exactly the same levels I got when measuring the Behringer EP2500's fans.