RMAF pics

[Jed]

Images not available

[Hdale85]

They didn't happen to have those new Klipsch speakers there did they? I'm not sure what kind of vendors are at RMAF. Just curious if they live up to their 15k dollar price.

[Jed]

They didn't happen to have those new Klipsch speakers there did they? I'm not sure what kind of vendors are at RMAF. Just curious if they live up to their 15k dollar price.

I only had a few hours so pretty much what you see in the pics is what I listened to.

[joetama]

I wish I could have gone this year....


Going to try to make it next year....

[crazybastard]

Great show this year. Didn't see the new Klipsch though. I thought the most impressive speakers were the feastrex in a horn loaded enclosure. Sounds great for a single driver. Costs an arm and a leg....~24k per pair for the drivers alone. Got to be the most expensive drivers ever. And it wasn't even their most expensive. I also listened to the MBL speakers. I thought they sounded crappy last year, so I listened again. Still sounds crappy. Got a look at the new sb acoustic drivers from the Madisound display. Promising, and good prices. Can't waite until someone tests them.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the pics, Jed- looks like you covered more rooms than I had a chance to, only could spend a couple of hours there on Saturday.

Here's one more for this thread....




We had some of the guys from the old Home Theater Talk forum, including some fellow DIYers, over this afternoon- they listened to Tom's triamped Acoustats, then the new pair of Modula NeoD's just built for Tom, setup for two channel on Thomas's family room system. They brought out some of their favorite CD's and we all had a pretty nice time.

[ColoradoTom]

We had some of the guys from the old Home Theater Talk forum, including some fellow DIYers, over this afternoon- they listened to Tom's triamped Acoustats, then the new pair of Modula NeoD's just built for Tom, setup for two channel on Thomas's family room system. They brought out some of their favorite CD's and we all had a pretty nice time.

Damn.... wish I could have made it. As it turns out with all the rain we got over the weekend I delevoped a leak in my garage right over my workshop :M and ended spending the night trying to keep my tools/projoects from getting ruined. Looks like I'll have to sneak over to Tom's some other time. Sorry I missed the fun.

[JoshK]

Wonder if anyone on this board heard the Emerald Physics dipole. There is a lot of buzz about it on another forum.

[TacoD]

Jed, I really like the Vivid loudspeakers from Laurence Dicky. What is your opinion about these?

[niget2002]

Here's a question I've had while looking at pictures of speakers.

I've noticed quite a few designs that look like the front baffles are bolted to the front of the speaker. If these are really bolted on, what's being used to seal the baffle to the rest of the box?

I'm only a semi-speaker building hobbyist, but I think I'd like to make it to some type of event like this one day.

[Johnloudb]

Hi Jed, Really nice picts. Did you listen to the Thiel speakers? How they sound? I know show conditions can be pitiful though.

[Jed]

Hi Jed, Really nice picts. Did you listen to the Thiel speakers? How they sound? I know show conditions can be pitiful though.

I didn't like many of the "box" speakers to tell you the truth. The Thiels were very thin sounding. I'm referring to Thiel USA. Didn't get a chance to hear the Avalons with Thiel and Partner drivers, but I did hear the very expensive Marten Design. Something was very wrong with that setup. The tweeters sounded like they were distorting, and the bass was lifeless. I think since they were playing vinyl, the cartridge wasn't set up properly.

[JonMarsh]

I was a bit surprised at how mediocre some of the demo's were. In several cases, what could have been a pretty good demo, like at Joseph audio, which was using Manley tube electronics, the flaw was what appeared to be a misaligned cartridge setup with considerable high frequency distortion.

The Coltrane Supremes had one of the worst value propositions at the show, in terms of perceived sound quality versus system cost. Most unfortunate.

~Jon

[Jed]

The Benchmark Dac solved a lot of those issues. I want one.

"The Coltrane Supremes had one of the worst value propositions at the show, in terms of perceived sound quality versus system cost. Most unfortunate."

You're being too kind Jon- I found it unbearable. My sister and I just looked at eachother and asked, those tweeters cost how much? Again, I think it was the turntable misalignment, though.

[Johnloudb]

The Benchmark Dac solved a lot of those issues. I want one.

"The Coltrane Supremes had one of the worst value propositions at the show, in terms of perceived sound quality versus system cost. Most unfortunate."

You're being too kind Jon- I found it unbearable. My sister and I just looked at eachother and asked, those tweeters cost how much? Again, I think it was the turntable misalignment, though.

My dad has a bechmark for use with his headphones. It has a very nice natural sound, but Absolute Sound raved about this PS Audio Digital Link III using the new 192kHz DAC, and an all FET output stage. Said it made CDs sound like their SACD counterparts. $995.00

TAS Review

Might audition if possible.

[ThomasW]

Again, I think it was the turntable misalignment, though.

Believe it or not the Coltrane Supremes in the same room sounded worse last year. Hard to believe people showing a $250K speaker system can't get their equipment properly set up... :roll:

[JonMarsh]

The Benchmark Dac solved a lot of those issues. I want one.

"The Coltrane Supremes had one of the worst value propositions at the show, in terms of perceived sound quality versus system cost. Most unfortunate."

You're being too kind Jon- I found it unbearable. My sister and I just looked at eachother and asked, those tweeters cost how much? Again, I think it was the turntable misalignment, though.

To my ears, there were more problems than that- though Thomas reported the bass wasn't as heavy and unbalanced as last year, it sounded undefined in the 35-55 Hz area, mushy, and there was little focus or coherency to the middle and upper midrange- I mean, geez, they had the diamond 2" dome mid, the C90, the 3/4" diamond tweeter, and from what Thomas reported, the Isis introduction using the C90 and 1" diamond tweeter just wiped the floor on this leviathan. More like beached whale. Never seen so many Accuton drivers in one place, I don't know for sure which 7" besides the C90 was used (probably the C95-T5), and all the 8" Accuton's in the woofer cabinet- it was just a mess sonically. The little Ascendents in the Ayre/Avalon room were a far more convincing simulacrum of real music, and sounded much less like a speaker.

There was a lot of stuff at the show I found hard to believe, because I couldn't imagine someone taking something that sounded that colored somewhere to demo...

Just my inner curmudgeon coming out, I guess.... :W

~Jon

[Rick Craig]

Wonder if anyone on this board heard the Emerald Physics dipole. There is a lot of buzz about it on another forum.

It was among the few speakers I listened to. The two tracks I heard weren't the greatest source material but I think the speaker had some problems.

[Hdale85]

Sounds like this wasn't a very good event to attend this year. Or maybe its always like this? Personally I would make sure everythings perfect when I go out to demo a set of my speakers. Especially with how much most of these cost? Kind of strange.

[ThomasW]

This years show was the biggest and best show so far. There was an amazing number of products, many from companies completely new to me...

Issues with any show like this (including CES, HE or whatever) are the rooms are usually too small, too hot (imagine equipment running from 10:00AM until 6:00PM with the AC off because it makes to much noise) and the room acoustics are a nightmare to deal with. (On the plus side I saw room treatments in many many more rooms this year than in previous years.) All these things combine to make critical listening all but impossible. This is a given most people understand.

The other issue is that Jon and I are jaded, we've been going to shows like this since the late 1970's. And although the equipment changes the basic elements of these shows don't. The n00bs I talked to were really excited about the show and seeing all the equipment. For us it's a good time if we see and talk to old friends and get turned on to some great new music, all that happened.

[Piotr]

Did any of you guys find your way into the Sjofn/Guru room?


About the Coltrane Supreme, I may be wrong but I think they use the Neo 6.5" unit and not C95.


/Peter

[JonMarsh]

They have one of the C90 style Neo units (C173N-T6-90)(like I'm using in my Isiris), and underneath it a big stack of the more conventional 6.5/7, (presumably used in the lower midrange/upper bass?)with out the damping plugs- could be C95-T6 aka C173-T6-95, like we're using for Tom's Isiris Jr., or could be the lower efficiency C92-6. Can't readily tell from eye balling them.

[Piotr]

I'm not sure but I think they use the neo equipped midbass C²173N-T6-96 which is the midwoofer with standard cone but with the new chassis and neo motor. It could be that they use the standard C95T. The difference between old C95T and C173N-T6-96 can bee seen here; http://www.clofis.nl/nl/thiel/C173N-T6-96.pdf

The UH-neo motor seems to result in lower distortion and higher sensitivity in the upper range making the C173N-T6 bee an interesting alternative for a two way. Used as in Coltrane Supreme, between aprox. 70Hz and 200-300Hz(?) the old C95T may be as good though.

The C92 was/is used in the first models, Miles and Mingus, from Marten.


/Peter

[JoshK]

Am I reading this right? That C___96 looks to have some store energy problem right at 700hz with a corresponding blip in the FR. I would think that would make it hard to make a 2 way with this driver.

[Piotr]

Both drivers in that graph show some odd behaviour below 1k which makes me wonder if it's a question of baffle effects. It probably is. The C95's I have measured does not show any signs of problem in that area.


/Peter

[JonMarsh]

I didn't see any odd behavior below 1 kHz with the C95 I measured for ThomasW's system. OTOH, I do see the breakup peak occurring at about 3.7 kHz, not at 5.3 kHz as the PDF shows- this behavior seems to be dependent on the finished cone thickness, which does vary apparently in driver runs. This shows up in parts like the C79's I've measured also.

[Hdale85]

So they have some consistancy issues?

[JonMarsh]

So they have some consistancy issues?

You betcha! That's why they only sell them in matched pairs. Means that any notch filters may have to be tuned to the specific driver pair.

But not in a frequency range you should be running them in....

The original C90 should be crossed no higher than 3 kHz, IMO, the C95 ~ 2 kHz IMO. Significant HD amplification sets in above that.

~Jon

[Hdale85]

What about the C79?

[JonMarsh]

The upper limit and peak is not consistent pair to pair- the published PDF is different from the pair I have- by about 2-3 kHz.

[Hdale85]

You think there is a better option for a midrange in that price range? I was thinking about trying them out becuase they look very interesting.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, the C89. Less rear masking, higher Xmax, easier mounting.

Got both, so I'm entitled to an opinion. :W :B

[Hdale85]

And only a few bucks more.

[Jed]

The upper limit and peak is not consistent pair to pair- the published PDF is different from the pair I have- by about 2-3 kHz.

Jon,

My pair (C79s) were pretty close to the published specs, so I guess it's a bit of a pain that they very so much. Pretty much requires one to have measuring equipment to verify the results when implementing a DIY design/crossover.

[Piotr]

Yup, the breakup always need a matched notch for every driver.

In the good ol' C92 I have measured break up from 5400Hz up to 6200Hz. I've had six units or so.

Even the shape of the peak may vary in shape from "peaky" to "flat", one peak or two very closed peaks (C95T-11). The in band match of the driver pairs/quads are very impressive though and that is what really counts IMO.

/Peter

[Jed]

Yup, the breakup always need a matched notch for every driver.

/Peter

Wonder if Avalon and the like do "custom" notch filters for every speaker.

[Dennis H]

Wow, these Accutons really redefine "hard to work with" don't they? I wonder if the manufacturers using them bother to tune their notch filters for every driver? I'd bet Avalon does but the others?

Edit: Jed beat me to it.

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

My pair (C79s) were pretty close to the published specs, so I guess it's a bit of a pain that they very so much. Pretty much requires one to have measuring equipment to verify the results when implementing a DIY design/crossover.

Definitely does. Just one of the costs of doing business with these, I guess...

It's probably hard to get those diaphragms exactly to spec.

I'd be surprised if Avalon didn't... they do a thorough QA on each speaker during production; it's what we call an FSV- "Factory Select Value".


~Jon

[Hdale85]

Well I'd really like to do a speaker looking like an Avalon design. Right now my idea is AirCir 6600, C79 (or C89), and dual NS10's. But right now I'm just kind of brainstorming. This is going to be a long project for me probably at least a year long. It will be actively crossed as well.

[ColoradoTom]

Damn.... wish I could have made it. As it turns out with all the rain we got over the weekend I delevoped a leak in my garage right over my workshop :M and ended spending the night trying to keep my tools/projoects from getting ruined. Looks like I'll have to sneak over to Tom's some other time. Sorry I missed the fun.

Well..... I've been trying to get someone to help me repair the problems with my roof and I decided that I might have to do it myself. In researching roofing materials I came across this Grace product that is an "Ice & Water Shield" made from rubberized asphalt adhesive backed by a layer of high density cross laminated polyethylene..

http://www.graceathome.com/pages/roofing.htm

Has anybody wondered if this would be good to line the inside of speaker cabinets to lessen panel vibrations?? It looks like you could line several cabinets for less than a $100.00 US

If I purchase some I'll stick some on some MDF and see what happens!!!

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Well I'd really like to do a speaker looking like an Avalon design. Right now my idea is AirCir 6600, C79 (or C89), and dual NS10's. But right now I'm just kind of brainstorming. This is going to be a long project for me probably at least a year long. It will be actively crossed as well.

well, possibly the M12ta will give you some ideas, I've started prepping panels to cut, and the CAD drawings are close to finished. Expect to see a bit more about them in early December, hopefully.

~Jon

[ThomasW]

Well..... I've been trying to get someone to help me repair the problems with my roof and I decided that I might have to do it myself. In researching roofing materials I came across this Grace product that is an "Ice & Water Shield" made from rubberized asphalt adhesive backed by a layer of high density cross laminated polyethylene..

http://www.graceathome.com/pages/roofing.htm

Has anybody wondered if this would be good to line the inside of speaker cabinets to lessen panel vibrations?? It looks like you could line several cabinets for less than a $100.00 US

If I purchase some I'll stick some on some MDF and see what happens!!!

Tom

Well we put it on my mother's roof before placing concrete tiles and it works great.

As far as using it to damp speaker cabinet walls, any cabinets we build don't need that kind of damping since they're so thick to begin with.

[Jed]

Jed, I really like the Vivid loudspeakers from Laurence Dicky. What is your opinion about these?

One of the best box speakers for sure, Taco. Do you have any more info on them? Very low coloration, but they had a better setup than a lot of folks... bigger room etc.

Here's what I found online:

http://www.vividaudio.com/product_K1.php

[Jed]

Here's a question I've had while looking at pictures of speakers.

I've noticed quite a few designs that look like the front baffles are bolted to the front of the speaker. If these are really bolted on, what's being used to seal the baffle to the rest of the box?

I'm only a semi-speaker building hobbyist, but I think I'd like to make it to some type of event like this one day.

some kind of gasket rubber or felt does the trick. Some people on this board use PE dampening vinyl.

[TacoD]

One of the best box speakers for sure, Taco. Do you have any more info on them? Very low coloration, but they had a better setup than a lot of folks... bigger room etc.

Here's what I found online:
http://www.vividaudio.com/product_K1.php

I spoke with Laurence Dicky about these speakers when he was in Holland to demo his speakers with Chapter audio. The man is very knowledgeable, and he has put a lot of tricks in his loudspeaker. A Dutch hifi web magazine (www.hifi.nl) made a podcast of an interview with Laurence.

Interview with Laurence

Jed, are you also going to start open baffle loudspeakers I think those have their own problems and are not "better" than box loudspeakers, only different.