Filling a missing niche in accomplished designs

[PoorboyMike]

F4 port is 5/8". You can click on the 1st page and download drawings from my webshots folder. Just click on the picture and go into webshots to get the full resolution version.

I tried that but when I print it out it just comes out a solid black box. Not important now though, since you answered my question. :T

Got the boxes about done for the D44, just need to order the rest of the parts. I also have those 12 tweeters now and will send you out a couple tomorrow or Monday. No big rush on the testing though as I'm going to order a couple of D26s from Madisound tomorrow too. Can't wait to finish these and give them a listen. I'm curious as to how they sound compared to the NatP.

[Jed]

Sounds good Mike. I hope those OEM tweeters have the same flange as the D26. You should post pics of your build, if you get a chance. Also, I'm not sure the Natalie vs D44 is apples to apples, but it'll be interesting non the less.

I've got the Maxx's blasting in the other room at about 100DB @ 2 meters to test those series resistors augerpro was concerned about. It's 80-85db where I'm sitting 2 rooms over so don't worry about my hearing loss! Looks like a single 12watt is holding up with no problems (but very HOT), so the parallel 5ohm resistors will do even better. If you guys want to get a pair of 25Watt resistors to be on the safe side then go for it. I guess it just depends on whether or not you plan on using these as party speakers, in which case the advantages of the Eagles wouldn't be heard anyway.

[niget2002]

Wow... These are looking really nice and so far are looking exactly what I've been wanting for my living room's HT.

I've been trying to keep up with all the reading, but I haven't seen too much about the center speaker. If it comes out anywhere near the Maxx, then it should be great.

I also didn't see a BOM for the Lineup D44... is this because this speaker isn't finished yet?

I also have 1 other question. Is the Maxx the LR with 4 5" woofers? If so, what are you calling the two tall speakers with only the two woofers?

I can't wait to see a pic of full set of speakers... it should be really nice.

I'm hoping to use the center, Maxx, and Lineup D44 in my 5(possibly 7).1 setup.

I may also go with the two "smaller" tall speakers for the rears.

I definitely want to start with the center, then do the LR, then the rears.

Again, Thanks for all the effort you're putting into this system for all of us.

[Hdale85]

the TMWW's are the Mini Maxx's.

[Jed]

Wow... These are looking really nice and so far are looking exactly what I've been wanting for my living room's HT.

I've been trying to keep up with all the reading, but I haven't seen too much about the center speaker. If it comes out anywhere near the Maxx, then it should be great.

I also didn't see a BOM for the Lineup D44... is this because this speaker isn't finished yet?

I also have 1 other question. Is the Maxx the LR with 4 5" woofers? If so, what are you calling the two tall speakers with only the two woofers?

Hi, all the speakers with crossover schematics posted are "finalized" and ready for builders. The Maxx Center and Mini Maxx are in-development. Since I have a 3-day weekend, I imagine I'll get to the Center Channel this weekend and have some measurments ready. I'll try to get some BOMs ready for all the designs, too.

Jed

[Hdale85]

Not pressuring but just curious if you got around to the drawings for your new idea's on the center.

[PoorboyMike]

Sounds good Mike. I hope those OEM tweeters have the same flange as the D26. You should post pics of your build, if you get a chance. Also, I'm not sure the Natalie vs D44 is apples to apples, but it'll be interesting non the less.

I'm actually expecting the D44's to have a better midrange than the Nats. Might not be fair comparison if a sub isn't used, but with a sub, I think it will be close. Just from hearing Jim's impression of the W4, he seems to think it's a level above the RS drivers in midrange performance.

Here is where I am at so far. Had to go up to my dads and help him build a deck today, so I didn't make any more progress since yesterday.

Here is one with an 18v Makita next to it for size comparison.




And the other one still clamped up. I actually have 2 more clamps I could have used but ran out of real estate. :B

[Jed]

Not pressuring but just curious if you got around to the drawings for your new idea's on the center.

Just got CS3 Adobe Suite software today and a new IBM ThinkPad lenovo R61 laptop to play around with. I'll update it as soon as I can. Right now I'm updating all the BOMs.




Guys, I think I'm going to start a new Lineup Series Build thread, that way we can keep all the pictures of your progress in one place. I think ThomasW hinted at that awhile ago, so I think it is time.

[Hdale85]

Just be sure to put at the top build pics only or something so it doesn't get rediculously long or something. Unless thats what you want it for?

[Jed]

Just be sure to put at the top build pics only or something so it doesn't get rediculously long or something. Unless thats what you want it for?

I want to organize the info a bit better. You can see I started a Thread for the fullrange and 2-ways. I'll have a separate thread for the Maxx designs. That way people can ask questions and post their builds in a more specific place. Either in the Maxx thread or the Lineup 2 way thread. If it doesn't work Thomas or Jon can just delete them and we can keep this thread going, but I just think there are so many designs, it will be good to have it broken down more.

To post your pictures and questions about Maxx builds: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27584

To post your pictures and questions about the Lineup 2-ways or fullrange:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27583

[Jed]

Today you tease us again with the thought of an "Ultra" design :E This beggs the question - are you going to consider a Maxx design using the Fountek NeoCD3.0?

This may end up being my 2-channel reference. I can't make up my mind which tweeter to use though. The D26 seems to be a natural fit given the 3.5way crossover that is planned.

Four W4 titanium drivers in a 2.5 way with D26, and Two Aurasound NS10s in series make up the 3.5way concept. Note, this is just a concept drawing. I have no idea when I'll have time to work on it. I have some Visaton Ke25sc tweeters I could substitute, but I think the D26 tests really well and it's small form factor is a real advantage in this format. I like the slim design aesthetics so much I couldn't help myself with this one.

Image not available

[Brian Bunge]

Jed,

Those look really interesting. I've followed this thread closely and I think this design is the most intriguing to me. One thing I'd think would work well would be to mount the second 10" driver in the same position but on the other side of the cabinet. While having a high/low combo on opposite sides of the cabinet might not totally cancel out the mechanical forces, I'd think it would take care of most of them and help reduce interaction with the mid's.

[Hdale85]

I had pictured something a bit different. Like a WMTMW with the NS10's and maybe open backed mids? For my 2 channel system I'd like either open backed mids or a full ob design.

[Jed]

I had pictured something a bit different. Like a WMTMW with the NS10's and maybe open backed mids? For my 2 channel system I'd like either open backed mids or a full ob design.

I'd imagine it would be difficult getting an F3 of 150hz with W4s in an Open Back configuration given the dipole rolloff. However, that wouldn't be necessary if going with a front mounted woofer format. I thought the Lineup Ultima should be in keeping with the series. One characteristics being a small front or using the least amount of floor-space as possible.

Jed,

Those look really interesting. I've followed this thread closely and I think this design is the most intriguing to me. One thing I'd think would work well would be to mount the second 10" driver in the same position but on the other side of the cabinet. While having a high/low combo on opposite sides of the cabinet might not totally cancel out the mechanical forces, I'd think it would take care of most of them and help reduce interaction with the mid's.

Thanks Brian,

I thought about the push push configuration, unfortunately given the 5.5" depth of the NS10, the cabinet width would have to be around 11". In that case one could just front mount them and save a lot of trouble. A hi/lo configuration might work given this situation, but then I'd have to thicken that wall as well and lose much needed volume.

Jed

[Hdale85]

Makes sense. I hadn't really thought of it as being a slim design like the rest of the series but coming from that standpoint it makes a lot more sense the way you designed it. Either way bet they will sound great.

[Jed]

Makes sense. I hadn't really thought of it as being a slim design like the rest of the series but coming from that standpoint it makes a lot more sense the way you designed it. Either way bet they will sound great.

Maybe we should rename the speakers the "WAF series" j/k. Seriously, it seems like I could make a million of these slim speakers and my wife is really diggin all of them.

[Dennis H]

I thought about the push push configuration, unfortunately given the 5.5" depth of the NS10, the cabinet width would have to be around 11".

I think Brian meant to have one above the other like you do only one is on the other side.

[Johnloudb]

;x( This Ultima looks like another winner. ;x(

Jed,

Those look really interesting. I've followed this thread closely and I think this design is the most intriguing to me. One thing I'd think would work well would be to mount the second 10" driver in the same position but on the other side of the cabinet. While having a high/low combo on opposite sides of the cabinet might not totally cancel out the mechanical forces, I'd think it would take care of most of them and help reduce interaction with the mid's.

I really like that idea. I think Brian did mean one above the other on opposite sides. Given the thinness of the cabinet, I think it would give the woofers a better foundation and help cancel vibrations. Might help with room placement too, but I wouldn't know anything about that.

[Jed]

I really like that idea. I think Brian did mean one above the other on opposite sides. Given the thinness of the cabinet, I think it would give the woofers a better foundation and help cancel vibrations. Might help with room placement too, but I wouldn't know anything about that.

This is THE design I'm really excited about! I'll give some thought to the Hi/Lo opposite mounted woofers too. I might add a pair of passive radiators to balance things off visually, and the width might increase to 7.5". Gotta keep them skinny though.

[Jed]

I couldn't resist picking up a bunch of these to test, W4 656SC:

Image not available

They're onsale for $16 right now at PE- so hey, why not pick up a bunch and see how they sound? I'll do some distortion testing to see how they compare to the W4 13337s. I don't expect them to compete (no copper in the gap?), but they might offer a nice alternative for people looking for more of a budget HT. Even when they go back to regular price they'll still be only $26. Not bad for a driver with a nice cast frame, vented motor, and large shielded magnet. We'll see if it's performance equals the sum of its parts.

[Hdale85]

Jed how much do the ns10's go for?

[Johnloudb]

Jed how much do the ns10's go for?

At Madisound $171.00 each.
NS10

A you considering these over the MAXXs? 8O By all means, go for it. :righton:

[jrmxj]

jed, do you plan to sub the 656 in current designs or you planing somthing new?

[Hdale85]

No if I build the Ultima's would be for a different speaker. Unless I move the Maxx's to rear duty but I already have wood for the Mini's for rears .

[Jed]

jed, do you plan to sub the 656 in current designs or you planing somthing new?

I'll have crossovers for the MaxxB = D26, pair of W4 656, and the W5 subs
Right now I have a topology developed for the Lineup MaxxB and it is sounding good, but at higher volumes female vocals aren't as liquid, detailed or transparent. May try something steeper to tame the 3rd order peak at 2.2-2.3k.

This may be used in my personal budget style HT- and no the W4 656 is not as musical, detailed, or tranparent as the W4- 1337s, but they are more than capable, especially for the type of source equipment I'll be using in my HT. Just a Yamaha receiver, nothing fancy at first.

Next, I'm going to take the (8] W4 1337 and team them up in the Lineup Ultima. I have to do more testing on the Visaton Ke25sc tweeters to see how they compare to the D26 in a more controlled test. I've done some distortion testing but my mic has changed etc.

Jed

[jrmxj]

jed, the maxxB's sound like what i'm looking for they will be use 100% for HT in a fairly small room 15X18X8.
thanks

[J-Dub]

WOW JED!

Talk about keeping people interested in a thread!

OK, the Ultima's look ultimate!

I love the concept! Do you think you have enough volume down there to get the 10's to do what you want? I'm not a fan of passives but I love the ported design mentioned above with the high low config. just dont know if youll be able to get the port in there and the (side firing) baffle thickness could become an issue. I see in the original you compensated for this by doubling up the side baffle width. some creative bracing might do the trick.

;x( Again, EVERYONE, thanks to Jed for all of the work and creativity on all of these designs! We all know what kind of commitment this takes! Thanks for the dedication! ;x(

[Johnloudb]

Jed, I second all of that. :agree: You might even try a couple different box configurations for the Ultimas and see what sounds best. I'm a big fan of experimentation, and this way you won't get bored. :B And keep this thread going forever!!!

Enjoy the beer fest ... :beer:

[Jed]

jed, the maxxB's sound like what i'm looking for they will be use 100% for HT in a fairly small room 15X18X8.
thanks

The W4 656 are on sale now so you might want to pick some up soon.

. . . and this way you won't get bored.

New opportunities and many different configurations await. Speaker building is perfect for keeping me interested for a long time.

WOW JED!

Talk about keeping people interested in a thread!

OK, the Ultima's look ultimate!

I love the concept! Do you think you have enough volume down there to get the 10's to do what you want? I'm not a fan of passives but I love the ported design mentioned above with the high low config. just dont know if youll be able to get the port in there and the (side firing) baffle thickness could become an issue. I see in the original you compensated for this by doubling up the side baffle width. some creative bracing might do the trick.

;x( Again, EVERYONE, thanks to Jed for all of the work and creativity on all of these designs! We all know what kind of commitment this takes! Thanks for the dedication! ;x(

Thanks J-Dub. I've really learned a lot about getting the DIY loudspeaker community involved in a design and now I'm trying things I never thought were possible. For that I thank you all because I'm pushing my own personal limits of creativity and it has certainly been enjoyable throughout the process.

About the volume for the 10s, in a heavily stuffed box I can get the tuning down into the 30s. Luckily the Aurasound NS10 does not need a large box at all.

[Johnloudb]

Jed,

If you think about it, take some pictures at the RMAF and post some of your favorite gear. If you see any Sound Lab speaker setups, take a picture. Thanks

[Jed]

Jed,

If you think about it, take some pictures at the RMAF and post some of your favorite gear. If you see any Sound Lab speaker setups, take a picture. Thanks

will do- I'll probably take as many pictures as I can.

[JonMarsh]

I have to do more testing on the Visaton Ke25sc tweeters to see how they compare to the D26 in a more controlled test. I've done some distortion testing but my mic has changed etc.

Jed

So far I've still only gotten one of the two Ke25sc I've ordered from eSpeakers. Some quick tests nearfield were not what I hoped, but I've yet to put it on a nice baffle and wring it out. I've got a feeling the D26 may kick it to the curb, regardless of cost.

[Jed]

So far I've still only gotten one of the two Ke25sc I've ordered from eSpeakers. Some quick tests nearfield were not what I hoped, but I've yet to put it on a nice baffle and wring it out. I've got a feeling the D26 may kick it to the curb, regardless of cost.

I'll report back my findings, but I get a feeling you are right. The D26 is one clean tweeter, and I love how nicely it works in MTM formats.

[Jed]

I spent a good few weeks working on the MaxxB speakers, but I found them to really not have the magic of the W4 1337 version (fine for HT only system). The poly cones, while fairly easy to listen to, have some issues in the male vocal range, and also require a low crossover point to the tweeter due to the 2.2k 3rd order distortion peak that I measured. With all things considered, it is not much more expensive to build the Maxx W4 1337 version, but if someone was wanting the crossover for the MaxxB, I can PM the crossover to you. I don't want to leave anyone hanging if they happened to buy the Poly W4 656s when they were onsale. I'm glad I tried them out though, because it helps answer those questions of whether or not the TB W4-1337 is THAT good. I think the answer is YES.

One question still remains however, and that is whether or not the W5 876s are the real deal. The distortion tests I took of this particular woofer suggest a useable range up to around 250HZ. I ended up taking them up to 250HZ LR2 to the Tang Band W4 1337s and found the bass reproduction very pleasing. However, as some have noted, if we compare the TB W5 876 to woofers like the RS225, it is cleary understandable that the W5 could be considered a weak link in terms of low harmonic distortion and deep reaching extention. Though, having 4 W5s in series parallel definitely helps matters, and allows one to meet the design objectives of having a high power handling speaker with a lot of dynamics and higher effeciency.

I keep searching for better ways to do things or a design strategy that might take things to the next level. Don't take this as second guessing of the the Maxx design.

For example, now that I have tests results back about the new SEAS L16, and received comments like "this is the best 5.5" woofer I've tested below 300hz", it makes me wonder if I should try it in the Maxx speaker. It would have to be a sealed design though, if keeping the original size bass enclosure, as the L16 RN SL appears optimized for sealed boxes and bass would be somewhere in the 40-50hz range "in room". Or, a pair per side could be ported for an F3 in the mid to low 30s.

The question I have is whether or not a speaker with the L16 really is just another speaker in the Lineup Maxx series, or if is should find a home in a totally new project. My focus still remains to finish the Maxx Center and Mini-Maxx. The Maxx Center taking primary focus, but in the end I design to keep having fun and to learn. Hopefully the L16 will interest a bunch of folks and we can try something new, when I'm done!

[jrmxj]

jed, thank you for all the hard work. i'm waiting on the mini-max as i plan to use a sub in my ht and being in a fairly small room, 14x16x8 i think they may be right for me.
thanks
john

[Jed]

jed, thank you for all the hard work. i'm waiting on the mini-max as i plan to use a sub in my ht and being in a fairly small room, 14x16x8 i think they may be right for me.
thanks
john

Great to hear John. I kinda had you in mind when I made the post about the W4 656s. I think you will be very happy with the Mini-Maxx. Your response also give me a little nudge to finish them.

[jdybnis]

On the MiniMaxx, it may mitigate floor bounce if you drop the woofers a little lower and maybe even space them apart a bit.

[Jed]

Good point Josh. The woofers center should be around 18" off the floor to help reduce floor bounce at 250-300hz. Though there are advantages to having the woofers closer to the midranges crossed LR2- better integration with the mids etc. I'll look into it once I get further along.