Filling a missing niche in accomplished designs

[Jed]

Thanks J-Dub. I was going to try to get all the wood cut for the Lineup Max speaker but ended up having an allergic reaction to some vitamins I took earlier today- last time I try to be healthy! I guess you are supposed to build up the doses slowly over time, instead of all at once. 8O

Anyhow, I'd be interested in seeing a drawing of your transmission line. Sounds neat.

I'm tempted to order up some more TB W4s and do an ultimate version with dual Aurasound NS10s (have 4) but I've got enough to do for now. :T

[J-Dub]

:rofl:

Yeah I try not to be healthy in an attempt to save my life all the time! :B

Seriously though, I hope all is well and you are feeling better.

As for the W3tl's, they are a 30" folded, tapered, tube 2:1 x SD ratio. Box is 13" high, 4.75" wide and 8.5" deep. (outside dimensions) Made from voidless .5" oak veneer ply.
I am breaking in the drivers as we speak. They have about 12 hours on them and the bass is really starting to kick in. The first several hours I was very disappointed with the bass but the imaging is unlike anything I have ever heard and the separation between instruments is impeccable. Now that the drivers are breaking in a little I had no idea that this little 3" driver was capable of such clean bass! They do phenomenal at close distances from the wall and with a close listening position. I am very happy with them.
Cost: $22 for the pair!

Would like to see your project with the TB W4's and NS10's but I'm willing to wait. Current project is obviously a hand full and a worthwhile one at that!
I may have to place an order for those W4's afterall. They do have a much higher xmax than the W3's too.
Hmmm may have to make another tl....

[Jed]

:rofl:

Hmmm may have to make another tl....

Might make a worthy box replacement for the W4 fullrange bass reflex box in the first post. By all means, do share box layout. I don't have time to do a transmission line style box at the moment and I'd bet a lot of people would like a skinny little fullrange tower.

Image not available

Another option people have is to build the Lineup F4 as a tower. Just keep the baffle width the same and driver placement the same and it should be a-ok.

[J-Dub]

BTW I am making a sub for the W3TL's out of the 5.25" Tang Band. Still don't know if I want to go ported or sealed though. Will update when it is done and the drivers are completely broken in.
Any one in San Antonio, Texas with measuring equipment and interested, please let me know!

JED, Thank you for letting me add to this thread. I know that you have already decided on a design to "fill the niche" but I appreciate you letting me throw in another idea.

If anyone wants me to make a separate thread I'd be happy to do so. I'm only posting because I thought it was relevant.

[J-Dub]

Hey those towers look great!
Looks like a TQWT. They need to be tall.

Do have a picture of the internals of the W3TL but dont know how to post. Will be happy to do so with exact dimensions. The box is rather simple after all of the math is done.

I like the idea of the Lineup F4 being a tower with the same baffle width. Great Idea!
Probably pass the WAF also.

[Hdale85]

Well he's actually building....7 designs lol A little something for everyone I guess. He's got the Fullrange,TM,MTM,MTMWWWW. The TM,MTM and MTMWWWW will have a variation with the D26 tweet and the NeoCD3.0.

[J-Dub]

yes indeed!

I am very interested to see how the Lineup F4 turns out!
Like to see how the MTMWWWW turns out too.
OK, well im addicted I'd like to see them all!

I love the last post about the F4's though, A tall TQWT or smaller folded TL would be nice.
I built the W3TL because I have no measuring equip and no measuring equip means no crossovers. This was a test to see what I could do with a fullrange and a box. I'm very glad I did!

The W4 1337SA that he is using is much higher quality than my W3's and has a 3 mm xmax. I think its also the only 4" that TB makes that hits 20k hz. I could be wrong on that but I dont remember many of them going above 15k. They ARE 50 something bucks each though! but still a very nice looking upper end driver for the price. Qes is a little high for a TL but not too high and the Qts is dead on perfect. I bet it would make a very nice fullrange TL.
Anxious to see what happens.

[Jed]

J-Dub. When you get a chance, please do post the enclosure design process here, if you like. It'll add some new flavor to the mix.

Transmission Lines Info

The Lineup F4 crossover will work well in a transmission line as long as the driver positioning is the same on a baffle layout width identical to the F4.

I guess the only thing missing is an Omni Lineup F4 Transmission Line. Who wants to do that one! :lol:

[J-Dub]

Here are some pics of the W3TL.
I will try and modify them with the measurements when I get a little more time.

Ohh....I would love to try and design one around the W4 also. again, just need time. Will see what I can do.

The link you posted is good stuff. I have read a lot of Martins info but I have had to read it over and over. This link puts things in easier terms and I consider it a must read! HOWEVER, if you want to design a TL you absolutely have to read Martin Kings material also! The guy is a mathematical genius and THE pioneer of getting predictable responses from TL designs. If you try to design one any other way you will have to build, modify, rebuild, test, modify etc... Do it right the first time with his information.

[Jed]

Announcement

Ohh....I would love to try and design one around the W4 also. again, just need time. Will see what I can do.

Sounds good :T

Also, anyone interested in helping with the tuning of crossovers let me know. I'd like to see if the Lineup Series works on a variety of systems and I think it would be cool to get more of a collaborative thing going. For example, I'll have crossover version 1 done for all the systems, someone can listen and PM me their impressions, and we can go from there if modifications need to be made to the treble, mid, bass, etc.

So far PoorboyMike is helping out and will build either the Dome or Ribbon versions, and Dougie is interested in the R44s, and it looks like J-Dub wants to do a F4 variation, as well as JohnL. The more ears the better in my opinion. Although it might be difficult to get everyone to agree, I'm up to the challenge to meet a more universal approval of the sound on a variety of systems versus just mine, in my room, with my ears. It would be a bit more of an investment on your part because you'd have to by extra crossover parts for each version of crossover (if necessary), but I think the reward of contributing more to the end product will be worth it. Just my 2cents. So if you want to help, just PM me and let me know which speaker you are planning on building. Hopefully we'll have a few people for each design for the BSC versions and Non-BSC versions.

I've got a week before I start teaching again, so I want to get as much done as possible before then. Once the crossover tuning begins, it can drag on for awhile. I get pretty picky. Having multiple sets of ears to confirm what I am hearing will definitely speed up the process.

[J-Dub]

Jed, I dont think I will be able to do anything in one week but I will still put my best foot forward. Will need time to scrounge up some cash for the W4's also. Will keep you updated.

Going to wrk soon so this will be last post untill tonight.

Here is update to dimensions of W3TL

All interior boards are 3.75" wide. 1/2" Oak veneer ply. (voidless) but not 11ply

Top chamber (by driver) surface area of front is 2XSD = 14.0625"^2
Surface area of terminus void is 1XSD = 6.5625"^2
Length of tube is 30" 7.5X4=30
1/4 wavelength of FS: (1128/FS)/4=Length (EDIT: oops skipped some math) multiply by 12 for inches. ops:
FS=110hz
desired length = 30.75"
I balanced the stuffing to make the line appear longer. .75" is acceptable.

Enjoy!

[dawaro]

Maxx driver arrangement

Jed, have you modeled the layout for the WWWWMTM? I wonder if there would be any benefit to doing an arrangement like the Raw Acoustics Apex with a WMTMWWW?

Image not available

[seattle_ice]

Personally, I would love to see something like the Klipsch KS-7800-THX in wall IB (No enclosure) surrounds. Sometimes, you just don't have the room to even have the surrounds wall mounted. And the alternatives mostly make me want to hurl. :throwup:

[Jed]

I finalized some cabinet drawings. Check em out and let me know if you see anything that needs an adjustment.

I'll post this on the first page too.

Image not available

[Jed]

Jed, have you modeled the layout for the WWWWMTM? I wonder if there would be any benefit to doing an arrangement like the Raw Acoustics Apex with a WMTMWWW?

It definitely looks cool. :T I considered doing something like that, but it wasn't necesary since I can still get the tweeter at ear level with the MTMWWWW format, given the fact that I'm using small Ws.

Not sure how many people are really interested in the Lineup Max besides myself and PoorboyMike, though.

[sprint_9]

I might be interested in the Lineup Max but it will probably be a few months down the road ($$) and depends on the overall cost and listening impressions, as Im tossing around a few different build ideas.

One side note, Jed what do you think would be a good center for the Lineup Max's? Ive thought about that a little bit and kind of wonder if Jim's Statement center would work good, same drivers except for the woofers I think.

[Jed]

One side note, Jed what do you think would be a good center for the Lineup Max's? Ive thought about that a little bit and kind of wonder if Jim's Statement center would work good, same drivers except for the woofers I think.

I've got a center in the works, but maybe it's too small for your tastes if using it for center channel use. Essentially it's the D44 on its side with dual ports. There is a pic of it in the 1st post. After doing some simulations of the off axis response, there looks to be some problems with off axis response on the X axis above 15 Degrees. I might add a TB dome mid and put it below the D26 to help with power response [can cross lower to the mid/woofers]. We'll see.

[augerpro]

I've got a center in the works, but maybe it's too small for your tastes if using it for center channel use. Essentially it's the D44 on its side with dual ports. There is a pic of it in the 1st post. After doing some simulations of the off axis response, there looks to be some problems with off axis response on the X axis above 15 Degrees. I might add a TB dome mid and put it below the D26 to help with power response [can cross lower to the mid/woofers]. We'll see.

Maybe WMTW with D26, W4-1337 mid, and those TB woofers? Could be smaller alternative to the eventual CurtC center channel. Very nice work so far Jed!

[PoorboyMike]

Maybe WMTW with D26, W4-1337 mid, and those TB woofers? Could be smaller alternative to the eventual CurtC center channel. Very nice work so far Jed!

That's what I was thinking Brandon. If this Lineup turns out as good as I think it can, I'd hate to have the center channel be the weak link. We could keep the small one too, but maybe once all the designs are complete, we could chip in some more drivers/parts and get a top quality center channel. :B

[Jed]

That's what I was thinking Brandon. If this Lineup turns out as good as I think it can, I'd hate to have the center channel be the weak link. We could keep the small one too, but maybe once all the designs are complete, we could chip in some more drivers/parts and get a top quality center channel. :B

I'm game. :B It's only one more 3-way to design. :W

Alright, back to cutting wood for the Lineup Max. Maybe I'll be able to get one of the boxes assembled tomorrow, with any luck.

[J-Dub]

Have fun on the Lineup Max cutting!
I like all four woofers on bottom! as long as tweeter is at ear level as stated.
Its gonna have very cool aesthetics!

A special thanks to Jed, everyone...
He has put a lot of work into this thread and has accomplished a lot of stuff in a very short amount of time. And a special thanks to all of the contributers as well. This is a great thread! :T

As for the F4's Jed, was it essential that they remain small or were we still entertaining the Idea of a tall slender tower fullrange?

It will probably be easier to design a smaller folded TL but some tall TQWT's or ML-TQWT's would be pretty sweet too. They would just be much harder to design especially since I don't have mathcad.

W4's Fs= 70hz so a folded line wouldn't have to get too tall. Also the baffle will be a tad wider than mine which will account for some of the volume needed to offset the larger driver.
I think the original idea was to get some smaller more manageable sized speakers so I'll see what I can come up with tomorrow afternoon for a folded TL using the W4's.

[Jed]

I like the tall skinny idea, with a baffle width at 6". Don't worry about the "original" idea as that area is already covered with the F4 design (compact and high quality).

I think having a transmission line design would just add to the appeal factor. It would be your cabinet design with the F4 crossover in place. Sounds good to me. I think there is a demo version of MathCad somewhere in that link I provided above.

As for the Lineup Max, I ended up getting indecisive about a few things so I'm going back to redraw the bracing setup. I'm going to have a small brace between each "sub" to stiffen it up a bit more. I'd hate to spend all that time building it and have flexing of the cabinet walls.

Crossover assembly will commence this Wed., when my parts come in. Once I start listening things will slow down a bit. I want to make sure the drivers and passive components have a few hours/days of listening on them before I finalize any crossovers

By the way thank you for the compliments everyone. This has been a lot of fun for me and I can't wait to play these new speakers on my new Aragon 8002 amplifier and Bedini Preamp setup.

[J-Dub]

I was afraid you'd say that! :B

Cool I'll see if I can get mathcad up and running then see what I can get going on a tall TQWT or even a tall ML-TQWT. I haven't built either one of those so this should be a fun one.
I agree that the taller version would be more appealing.

"I'd hate to spend all that time building it and have flexing of the cabinet walls."
Measure twice cut once :T

[Johnloudb]

Not sure how many people are really interested in the Lineup Max besides myself and PoorboyMike, though.

I'm very interested in the Maxx (I think many are) ... just have a lot on my plate right now. I predict they'll sound great. I hope to build one in the future.

Maybe WMTW with D26, W4-1337 mid, and those TB woofers? Could be smaller alternative to the eventual CurtC center channel. Very nice work so far Jed!

Like that idea!
If the Fountek Neo3 does sound better, how we gonna fit that in a center channel? 8O

[Jed]

I was afraid you'd say that! :B

Look at it this way, it'll be a nice challenge. :T

[Jed]

Like that idea!
If the Fountek Neo3 does sound better, how we gonna fit that in a center channel? 8O

It would just mean a 10.5" height with the Fountek. With a D26, we're looking at 8.5" as I'd have the tweeter stacked vertically over the mid to help with off axis cancelation issues.

[wildfire99]

I wonder if there would be any benefit to doing an arrangement like the Raw Acoustics Apex with a WMTMWWW?

Don't forget the rear-mounted 4" ambiance driver. Mmm... overkill.

[Hdale85]

What kind of crossover points are the MTMWWWW's going to have? I'm guessing your going to have the MTM part the same as the 44's? How low is it looking these will play? You probably said this at some point. My Klipsch towers go down to about 47Hz or so. Be nice if these could play lower

[Johnloudb]

TL Maxx

I was afraid you'd say that! :B

Cool I'll see if I can get mathcad up and running then see what I can get going on a tall TQWT or even a tall ML-TQWT. I haven't built either one of those so this should be a fun one.
I agree that the taller version would be more appealing.

"I'd hate to spend all that time building it and have flexing of the cabinet walls."
Measure twice cut once :T

Well, I've got your back. :B You build the smaller one and I'll build the Quarter Wave TL Maxx, It'll take me a while, but I've got a bit of a head start. These are Old IMF Monitor MKII loudspeakers. I've been wanting to replace the woofers and turn'em into subs. But they have a 5" midrange cylinder ... might be perfect for a W4.
I'll might add a Vifa tweeter in next, followed by a Fountek Neo3.

I do have the box dimensions which I downloaded off the internet. I know the electrical specs on the old KEF 138B (or 139, I forget) woofers. A Peerless sub, or Usher 10" has specs close. I'll be looking more.

The line is tuned for about 22Hz, from what I can tell. Does this interest anyone??? Probably, just be doing this for myself.

:a> :takecover:

Image not available

[Jed]

What kind of crossover points are the MTMWWWW's going to have? I'm guessing your going to have the MTM part the same as the 44's?

250HZ-300HZ and 2.2K-2.5K for the D26 (same as D44). Probably 4th order flat delay bandpass sections. Parts count will be in the realm of Jon's new center channel, so these won't be cheap. My guess is they'll play down to 40HZ with a port tuned below Fs. The port will fire out the rear and closely loaded to the floor so I can tune it lower and get some gain from the floor boundary. This is similar to what Jon does with his downfiring port configuration.

[Jed]

Image not available

Well, you might be getting away from the spouse approved form factor with this one.

[dawaro]

Maxx Center??

Maybe this could be used as the format for the Maxx center???

Image not available

[Hdale85]

That thing looks huge. Got a link to cabinet drawings or anything? Where did you find that. I'm not sure that really fits the slender style of the tower .

[Landroval]

That thing looks huge. Got a link to cabinet drawings or anything? Where did you find that. I'm not sure that really fits the slender style of the tower .

It's the RAW Acoustics Apex C:

http://www.rawacoustics.com/item__Apex_C_Center_Channel,803.html

[dawaro]

That thing looks huge. Got a link to cabinet drawings or anything? Where did you find that. I'm not sure that really fits the slender style of the tower .

The height could be reduced dramatically by using the Vifa tweeter instead of the ribbon.

[J-Dub]

TL Maxx

Well, I've got your back. :B You build the smaller one and I'll build the Quarter Wave TL Maxx, It'll take me a while, but I've got a bit of a head start. These are Old IMF Monitor MKII loudspeakers. I've been wanting to replace the woofers and turn'em into subs. But they have a 5" midrange cylinder ... might be perfect for a W4.
I'll might add a Vifa tweeter in next, followed by a Fountek Neo3.

I do have the box dimensions which I downloaded off the internet. I know the electrical specs on the old KEF 138B (or 139, I forget) woofers. A Peerless sub, or Usher 10" has specs close. I'll be looking more.

The line is tuned for about 22Hz, from what I can tell. Does this interest anyone??? Probably, just be doing this for myself.

:a> :takecover:

Image not available

Yes I would be interested to see how the remodeling of those would go. I bet it would be a neat project. I remember seeing the original marketing material / whitepapers on them and how, exactly they were consructed. From what I understand they were the cats meow back in the day.

I think I will try to stick with the program on this one though. I am actually getting pretty excited about designing a TQWT with a 6" baffle for Jed's crossover. This is a good oportunity for me, also, as I have never built my own crossovers and it will be easier for me to copy Jed's design. I'm thinking of putting the crossover on display at the bottom of the tower with some plexiglass in front. This could be a bad idea though, as my soldering skills are novice at best. Ok they are inexistant. I just think there are a lot of guys out there with some real creativity and some mad crossover skills. That said, why would you hide something that took so much effort and time. Plus, I just like the look of them. Maybe I'll make it an option. On one it will be hidden the other on display.

What do you think Jed, should we call it the F4QW?

[J-Dub]

JOHNLOUDB,

Here is a place to start but not as detailed as what I had found before. I'll keep looking.

http://imf-electronics.com/tls80/index.html

[J-Dub]

repeat post sorry.

[Jed]

What do you think Jed, should we call it the F4QW?

Sounds good. :T

[Jed]

Maxx Center??

Maybe this could be used as the format for the Maxx center???

Image not available

That could work, if there is interest in such a beast.

4 of the W5s only need about 1 cubic foot, so it wouldn't have to be more than 12" deep.

That said, there is A Lot of work to be done before a center is developed. I still have to build the Max enclosures, and I might upgrade my mic to something more hi-end than the Behringer, for all the measurements that are to come. If someone wants to send a cabinet out to me, by all means, go for it.

Jed

[Johnloudb]

That thing looks huge. Got a link to cabinet drawings or anything? Where did you find that. I'm not sure that really fits the slender style of the tower .

Probably looks bigger. It's 41" H X 19" W X 17" D, a good sized speaker.
I do have diagrams somewhere, Looks like J-Dub found some.

[Johnloudb]

JOHNLOUDB,

Here is a place to start but not as detailed as what I had found before. I'll keep looking.
http://imf-electronics.com/tls80/index.html

Thanks,

The IMF Monitors were well respected in the 70's. The bass was outstanding ... Wilson used a number of KEF 139B drivers in his WAMM speaker in the 80s. My Dad bought these when I was about 4.

The Tang-Band W8Q-1071 (8.5" X 12") has almost exact dimensions of KEF 139B. The Qts of .29 a bit low (KEF = .37). I definitely want to get a good woofer though.

You're project sounds exciting, I look forward to seeing it progress. :T

Edit: scratch the W8Q, looks terrible.

[Dennis H]

I might upgrade my mic to something more hi-end than the Behringer

Just send the Behringer off to Kim Girardin and get it calibrated for about $40 last I heard. Realistically you're looking at $1K+ to get a "good" mic that doesn't need calibration. Most of the cheap ones use the Panasonic capsules just like the Behringer and the Panasonics were good enough for SL's DIY mic so they should be good enough for us too.

Kim Girardin
Wadenhome Sound
1400 Homer Rd. Suite 2
Winona, MN, 55987, USA

Phone: 507-454-8844

E-mail: kmgrdn@luminet.net

[Jed]

Just send the Behringer off to Kim Girardin and get it calibrated for about $40 last I heard. Realistically you're looking at $1K+ to get a "good" mic that doesn't need calibration. Most of the cheap ones use the Panasonic capsules just like the Behringer and the Panasonics were good enough for SL's DIY mic so they should be good enough for us too.

Kim Girardin
Wadenhome Sound
1400 Homer Rd. Suite 2
Winona, MN, 55987, USA

Phone: 507-454-8844

E-mail: kmgrdn@luminet.net

Thanks for the info Dennis. I'm just kinda in a time crunch, so I might look into the Bamberg mic that comes with a calibration file for $125.

Jed

[Wilk]

With proper cal data, the Berigner mic's are as accurate as anything else. The only thing to gain from a more expensive unit is more bandwidth, and more sensitivity. Most of the more expensive models have a flatter response curve on them, but this really doesn't matter if you are using a cal file with them.