New apartment, thinking of new HT

[joecarrow]

I have good news and bad news, and some of it is audio related.

First, the good news- my new place in Berkeley has a sweet view:



(no sock picture yet, but I'm working on it)

More good news is that my fiancee recently got into baseball, and agrees that we really need a flat panel HD tv :T

The bad news is that my listening room is now going to be less than 90 square feet. Here's the floor plan; the couch and TV are going in the small bedroom on the right:



Here's my audio conundrum, and why I'm starting a new thread. I still have the corner TV stand, but I clearly won't be able to fit a larger TV on there, and if I did, there just isn't space to put the Modulas on stands. Even if I did, they would need to be tucked right against the wall.



What's a guy to do? My first reaction was to try Zaph's slimline wall mounted speaker:

http://zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker20a.html

http://zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker20b.html

My main concern is that I'm going to sacrifice too much sound quality by going from the RS180 to the little Aurasound. Granted, I'll be sitting like eight feet from the speakers.... but come on- can anyone who's heard them both tell me that it wouldn't be a big sacrifice? I think I need more bass and more headroom.

I recognize that the days of "Wow, I don't even need a sub for movies" is over. What I'm not ready for is "Wow, music is lifeless without the sub."

Does anybody have any ideas or suggestions for a wall-mounted design that will keep it together and provide enough bass to leave the sub turned off for moderate rock and standard TV listening? I assume that I'm going to have to design it myself, but as always I find any comments and suggestions to be helpful.

Time frame is probably 6 months, budget is probably $500 without a sub, maybe a tad more for tools or cabinet materials. The portable PA project is still on the back burner because I couldn't forsee that such a nice apartment would come along and make me re-think my audio.

[kingpin]

Maybe The mini statements or Jon and Thomas's new design. Maybe even the one CJD is making up with Ryan. Some slim cabinets going on there.

Mike

EDit: oops just noticed that you said wall mounted. Sorry.

[JonMarsh]

Nice view, tough speaker problems! I've always considered the Modula MT's something like an "atomic unit", never tried anything smaller. What Jim Holtz is kicking around, an Aurasound 3" or a Tangband W4-1337S with a "mini" sub based on that new RS210 is the best idea I can think of quickly for a really "tiny" system. Something like Zaph's asymmetric cabinet wall mount, but I'd use dual 1337s in each one, plus a tweeter like the Peerless D26CN55, crossed in about 3000.

[Landroval]

How about the non-BSC Modula MT made to a slim on-wall enclosure?

[joecarrow]

Thank guys... it's definitely a tough nut to crack, trying to get some kind of decent sound out of a wall mounted (not in-wall) speaker. I guess these fancy new LCD TVs are a mixed blessing, eh? I'll look into these ideas and stew on them, and maybe see what folks in Japan are doing.

[dlneubec]

Hey Joe,

You know I never do anything simple :E and this concpet may not work, but I was studying the idea of doing a wall mounted surround speaker awhile back, using something like the RS150-4 and the 27TDFC. At any rate, the idea was to have both a diffuse and direct sound from one box. To do this I came up with the concept attached. It is sort of an MTMT arrangement, but covers 3 sides of the speaker vertically. In other words, it has a downfiring woofer, a front firing TM and a top firing tweeter. There would be nulls, of course, but it seemed to me that they would be generally running at 45º angles down and up from the front baflle, which would not necessarily be a bad thing.

Anyway, I once owned a 3way Allison speaker, the Allison 8, that had an upfiring 8" woofer designed to be placed right against the wall, with front firing mid and tweeter domes. The woofer was within 1/2" of the wall. It was one of my favorite commercial speakers, big soundstage, good bass, good imaging, etc. Allison was a pretty clever guy, so I figured it might not be impossible to develop my surround concpet into a wall mounted mains as well as surrounds. I figured sealed and crossing over to a powered sub at around 100-150hz or so, maybe even higher so the RS150's aren't pushed too hard from an excursion standpoint, or better yet to a stereo pair of subs situated below the mains on the floor.

One would have to play around with driver polarity on the up and downfiring drivers, and perhaps have a tweeter level control on the upfiring/ambiance tweeter. Anyway, I thought I'd throw the idea out to you just to see if it generated any further ideas on your part.

One thing for sure, I think they would throw a huge soundstage. The good thing about the small room is that it would not take too much sub or power to pressurize the room. :B

[cjd]

So I think this isn't as tough a problem as it may at first seem.

The first question I have is where are you going to actually put the gear.

The second question is, what are the size restrictions you DO have: how deep can the speaker be, how wide, and how tall. I have considered building my MTM (or perhaps a 2.5 way MMTMM variant) as wall-mounted "pillars" in my HT, framing a display (in my case, the screen since I use a projector).

C

[Brian Bunge]

So I think this isn't as tough a problem as it may at first seem.

The first question I have is where are you going to actually put the gear.

The second question is, what are the size restrictions you DO have: how deep can the speaker be, how wide, and how tall. I have considered building my MTM (or perhaps a 2.5 way MMTMM variant) as wall-mounted "pillars" in my HT, framing a display (in my case, the screen since I use a projector).

C

That's funny, Chris. I had a similar thought.

[joecarrow]

Hey Joe,

You know I never do anything simple :E and this concpet may not work, but I was studying the idea of doing a wall mounted surround speaker awhile back, using something like the RS150-4 and the 27TDFC. At any rate, the idea was to have both a diffuse and direct sound from one box. To do this I came up with the concept attached. It is sort of an MTMT arrangement, but covers 3 sides of the speaker vertically. In other words, it has a downfiring woofer, a front firing TM and a top firing tweeter. There would be nulls, of course, but it seemed to me that they would be generally running at 45º angles down and up from the front baflle, which would not necessarily be a bad thing.

Anyway, I once owned a 3way Allison speaker, the Allison 8, that had an upfiring 8" woofer designed to be placed right against the wall, with front firing mid and tweeter domes. The woofer was within 1/2" of the wall. It was one of my favorite commercial speakers, big soundstage, good bass, good imaging, etc. Allison was a pretty clever guy, so I figured it might not be impossible to develop my surround concpet into a wall mounted mains as well as surrounds. I figured sealed and crossing over to a powered sub at around 100-150hz or so, maybe even higher so the RS150's aren't pushed too hard from an excursion standpoint, or better yet to a stereo pair of subs situated below the mains on the floor.

One would have to play around with driver polarity on the up and downfiring drivers, and perhaps have a tweeter level control on the upfiring/ambiance tweeter. Anyway, I thought I'd throw the idea out to you just to see if it generated any further ideas on your part.

One thing for sure, I think they would throw a huge soundstage. The good thing about the small room is that it would not take too much sub or power to pressurize the room. :B

I knew I could count on you for an interesting idea 8)

Seriously, woofers firing in opposition could help cut down a lot on any vibrations sent to the walls. I'm not quite ready to follow you on your journey to experimenting with directivity and omni sound... not quite yet, so I'll probably skip the second tweeter.

[joecarrow]

So I think this isn't as tough a problem as it may at first seem.

The first question I have is where are you going to actually put the gear.

The second question is, what are the size restrictions you DO have: how deep can the speaker be, how wide, and how tall. I have considered building my MTM (or perhaps a 2.5 way MMTMM variant) as wall-mounted "pillars" in my HT, framing a display (in my case, the screen since I use a projector).

C

Here's the plan:



The brown is roughly the area of the couch, though it might slide away from the exterior wall and window a tad. The green represents approximately a 32" wall-mount LCD, and the red is where I'd like to put some wall-mount speakers. Each block is one square foot.

I completely forgot about your MTM when I was thinking about this. Can the sealed version give useful output very low, say 60 to 80 hz? I tend to listen at 75 db for loud movies, with peaks in the low 90s. The distance will obviously be small for this.

I'd like for the speakers to be no deeper than 6 inches, which is just beyond how far the LCD will stick out. They can be around 22 inches tall, and almost a foot wide. Yes, I'm saying that the volume could potentially be even larger than my Modula MTs, but the closer to matching the LCD the better.

[Hdale85]

I'd go with the on/near wall nat p's or modula mt's.

[cjd]

Any of the on-wall designs will work out well including the Modula MT...

I'm curious why you have a height limit though - doesn't entirely make sense to me. :P

Regardless, the biggest issue I see is can you mount the drivers in the cabinet at 6" deep. My MTM does about what the MT does total output-wise. Just uses smaller drivers, so perhaps shallower. Maybe 5Hz better "reach" on the low end with the RS180 - those differences are really easy to model up. I was thinking you could go with a slot port and make an easy-to-attach cover/plug - no sub, run ported. Sub, run sealed, cross at 80Hz to 100Hz. If the RS180 will fit in a 6" deep cabinet it would work just fine too.

C

[dawaro]

If I remember right Poorboymike bought Augerpro's Bose Buster MTM design. It is fairly small and might work well. You could ask mike to try it out near or on wall and see what he thinks. I am thinking about using it for a PC set up but will likely be a couple of months before I do it since I am going to be traveling for business for the next 6 weeks.

[Jim Holtz]

I'd like for the speakers to be no deeper than 6 inches, which is just beyond how far the LCD will stick out. They can be around 22 inches tall, and almost a foot wide. Yes, I'm saying that the volume could potentially be even larger than my Modula MTs, but the closer to matching the LCD the better.

Hi Joe,

You have a problem getting decent imaging and good sound with the very close spacing of the speakers and wall mounting. It's not that much different than the corner positioning of the speakers you had in your previous apartment.

You need very small speakers. Although they haven't been designed yet, the W4-1337SA and the Aura NT-1 tweeter discussed in another thread are a perfect match for your requirements. Combined with a small sub and you'd have a very, very nice sounding speaker system.

My $.02 worth...

Jim

[joecarrow]

Any of the on-wall designs will work out well including the Modula MT...

I'm curious why you have a height limit though - doesn't entirely make sense to me. :P

Regardless, the biggest issue I see is can you mount the drivers in the cabinet at 6" deep. My MTM does about what the MT does total output-wise. Just uses smaller drivers, so perhaps shallower. Maybe 5Hz better "reach" on the low end with the RS180 - those differences are really easy to model up. I was thinking you could go with a slot port and make an easy-to-attach cover/plug - no sub, run ported. Sub, run sealed, cross at 80Hz to 100Hz. If the RS180 will fit in a 6" deep cabinet it would work just fine too.

C

I guess you've got me there- no good reason for the height limit, other than that I think it would look nice to match the TV.

As far as the bass and all that, sorry if it was lazy to ask how the MTM would do... I can definitely model that. I've just been tight for time. I'm glad to see that some of these options have been looking me in the face from the start.

[joecarrow]

Hi Joe,

You have a problem getting decent imaging and good sound with the very close spacing of the speakers and wall mounting. It's not that much different than the corner positioning of the speakers you had in your previous apartment.

You need very small speakers. Although they haven't been designed yet, the W4-1337SA and the Aura NT-1 tweeter discussed in another thread are a perfect match for your requirements. Combined with a small sub and you'd have a very, very nice sounding speaker system.

My $.02 worth...

Jim

Trust me, I'm not pretending that these things are going to win any awards :roll:

The proximity to stores, night life, friends, and public transit are all the biggest considerations when we were looking for a place. Some day we'll have a bigger place, and when that time comes... it'll sound nice. In the meanwhile, I try to make it to shows, and hold on to my Shure E2C headphones.

I think that all of this choice is starting to come down to the kind of bass modeling that I'm fairly comfortable with. I'll check out the W4-1337's as well as the Bose Buster, on-wall versions of Modula MT and Chris's MTM.

Thanks, guys!

[joecarrow]

New placement, pics

Alright, I've been moving into the new place for two weeks now, and it looks like the den is set up just about how it's going to be. It's not quite what I would have wanted, but wheelchair access takes #1 priority in this house.



It's in a little alcove sort of place where I'd originally put the desk, but with the couch like that my wife couldn't really get in there at all. This was the only way we could make decent use of the space. Here's a floor plan:



So- the larger the TV, the closer the speaker gets to the wall. I think the tweeter is about a foot from the wall now, the edge of the speaker.... eh....