Crossover riddle

[JamesK]

It's my first time seeing the VR-11 by Von Schweikert. How many ways is this crossed over and why is there a ribbon on the back of the speaker?

Here's link to picture.

http://www.vonschweikert.com/vr11_LGpicture.html

It's fascinating to see this many drivers on one box. I can't even imagine how it all crosses over.

[SQdude]

Yes very interesting, it looks to be a 4-way design (not including the bass tower next to it which probably controlled via active XO). I presume the tweeter on the back generates a larger, more spacious sound field. What does the bass driver say on the cone, it looks like a crescent reminiscent of Diamond Audio (which is a car-fi brand)? Any idea on what retail price is?

[JamesK]

The bass tower is the back of the speaker.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I'd say a 5 way?

[Jed]

Yeah I'd say a 5 way?

so who's going to clone it? That what I want to know. :T

[KJP]

Manufacturer says it is a 6 way.

http://www.vonschweikert.com/zvr11.htm

[Hdale85]

The subwoofers on the back look like Diamond audio. The woofers look like Seas Excel 's. Not sure about the rest.

[Hdale85]

Wow 7.5 feet tall and 693lbs per tower.

[cjd]

so who's going to clone it? That what I want to know. :T

Someone with some cash to waste?

[JamesK]

They're only $150,000 a pair.

[cjd]

Well, ok, so you'd be throwing a little more cash away if you purchased new from the original manufacturer.

I'd be curious about how they sound, but I really prefer using a brush to do my hair... In *just* the right spot it has potential to be... well... uh, a nice penile enhancement? Might sound ok too. :P

[JamesK]

Oh I think somewhere I read the tweets above and below the ribbon are the SS 7000's

[Hdale85]

So just gotta figure out what ribbons it uses and what mids. The subs could easily be replaced with something MUCH better...Diamond audio is ok for cars? But I would think something from TC would be better.

[SQdude]

Doesn't Von Schweikert have a history of using Audax mids?

[Raptor550]

Well first you see, the subs are run through a flux capacitor *very pricey*, wherein they reuse past sound waves to archive that 96 decibel efficiency. The caps are not actually Solon, but instead "magic beans". The treble is enhanced by the pixie-dust mixed into the stain and the secret ingredient is love.

most of the high cost for these baby's is in buying love. As it turns out, the Beatles where wrong, you can buy love -it just turns out its really expensive.

[Hdale85]

These could probably be built for around 3k I bet. Probably about 500 in MDF alone And the crossover is going to be a real complicated one thats for sure. And going active would be even more of a pain! 6 channels of amplification per speaker??? Not to mention the active crossover for each of those channels.

[Pibborando]

I think it's fair to assume there's a bit of a markup on these...

Like a 50x markup.

Gotta pay the bills I guess. It's funny that these top of the line speakers don't even use the most top of the line drivers...

Has anyone seen MORE expensive speakers?

[Hdale85]

Well you also gotta consider they get discounts on all the parts... Probably costs them about 2k to build these. So probably closer to a 75x markup. I'm not sure the labor involved in building these is worth 148k dollars.

[Tommythecat]

You have to consider R&D costs too, as somehow they came to the conclusion that this design might actually be something worth doing.

Much funnier that anyone would assume it's worth copying.

And I'd assume they're using Diamond autosound subwoofers because of the airspace constraints. I doubt TC would come up with a reasonably priced woofer to work in the same volume.

[TacoD]

Someone with some cash to waste?

Someone with bad taste.... Sorry about that its not my brand and sound (only heard the VR-4 @ KR Kronzilla).

[Hdale85]

Well the OEM10 has 28mm of xmax and only needs .6 cu ft of air space. Not to mention I bet there is a decent amount of space in the top of that cabinet. TC has several drivers that require a small amount of space.

[Dennis H]

I'll bet they cost more to build than you guys are assuming. People squawk about the crossover cost of Jon's designs -- imagine a 6-way. You could have several $K in the XOs if you used good components. Then there's several $K in the drivers. Heck there's $1600 just in the Scanspeak ring radiators. And add several $K for the half ton of cabinets if they are built in the USA and nicely finished.

[Raptor550]

Ruling out discounts: depending on the brand the plainers could be really expensive. the subs are between 139 and 192 each and the seas excel is about 163x8. estimating the other unknown drivers at 70, 100, and 130 for the plainers drivers alone would get you to $3060! they say they are using the frilly boteque foil stuff, such a complex crossover I'd guess might be as high as $500x2. 500 for mdf? sure. 4560 and make it a clean $4600 for the pair with stain and wispermat.

the leaves us $145,400 for R&D & construction.
thats 7270 hours of work @ $20 per hour.

I don't think It took that long to build. I still think some of the money went to flux-capacitors, pixie dust, love, and magic beans. OK, maybe not love thats cutting prices offley close. Hey Wilson audio has their super secret X material to help justify their price.

Maybe the high price is just to stay in leauge with the other expensive brans soas not to loose face. After all, if they were only 20k I would doubt there quality. In the mind of sombody with more money that sence:"only 20k? this it too good to be true, maybe these arn't as good as more expensive 100K speakers. I owe it to myself not to skimp".

(Edit: I left out the prices for the 4 plate amps.)

[cotdt]

Why the two dome tweeters? OK a large ribbon at the front and back is fine, but i don't see why they threw in another pair of tweeters.

[ThomasW]

Typical markup for a high-end loudspeaker is 10 times mfgr cost.

[Hdale85]

A 6way crossover is probably going to be more then 500 bucks per tower. Probably looking at something like 1-2k and extremely complicated. Although part of the crossover is handled by the plate amps so its actually a 5 way with subs.

[Dennis H]

Yeah, I'd guess Thomas is pretty close at $15K cost.

If he used mid-priced Chinese ribbons like an Aurum Cantus G5, that's still $1200 just for the ribbons And don't forget $1600 or so for 4000 watts of plate amps. And c'mon $500 for the cabinets? Let's see you build them with an equal quality finish (if you can), either with veneer and lacquer or piano gloss black, and keep track of your time. Then pay yourself union wages and charge shop overhead (rent, equipment, etc.) and see how much they really cost.

[ahaik]

Something like that would only be bought by some rich person in the Hamptons that
has no idea in audio and for him $150K is like $15 for some of us and he would probably
listen to it 3 times altogether. :lol:

[Raptor550]

I could be wrong, but I can't see these costing any more than 7k to make. rent, equipment & stuff is valid, but then subtract, bulk discounts and the fact that once you have done one set, each successive set will be cheaper. I could see these selling for 25k without any loss especially if your doing it out of your house. 40k would be fair with a bit to gain. But $150k a pop? thats allot. 6 sets will make you almost a millionaire 7 will put you over.

Even if its 15k to create,
at $20 per hour that still leaves 6760 hours of pay. Thats 3 1/2 years of 6 hour work days. and a good woodworker could put those cabinets together in less than two weeks if full time.

I am also betting all equipment has been paid off by previous projects.

[cjd]

Who works so cheap?

And, who cares how much they actually cost the company to make? I also would not be surprised if they run $15k.

[ThomasW]

Even if its 15k to create,
at $20 per hour that still leaves 6760 hours of pay.

A person can earn $15/hr working at Costco.

Loudspeakers like this aren't knocked off in China, where the workers earn in a month what someone in the US earns in a week or less.

Do you really think Von Schweikert's paying master cabinetmakers and skilled electronics assemblers $20/hr?

If so think again....

In addition the last time I studied marketing (this was just after the Civil War... ) 40% of the cost of a product was 'marketing'. I don't know if that figure is accurate for the high-end audio industry, so I'll ask around for an answer.

[JamesK]

Why the two dome tweeters? OK a large ribbon at the front and back is fine, but i don't see why they threw in another pair of tweeters.

I can understand possibly crossing the ribbons above 7 or 8k to allow them to take the high end, but why two dome tweeters? I've seen a design before that crossed at 15k. That seemed kinda high to me.

[wildfire99]

Perhaps the "marketing" expense is figuring out how many drivers you have to install in a box (even if they are disconnected and do nothing) before someone with a $100,000 credit limit gets a hard-on and impulse buys it just because it looks cool.

I remember looking at some of my cheap boom box speakers around here and marveling at all the various ways they faked tweeters and fancy cone features. Why would high-end be any different?

Of course arguably the domes handle the heavy lifting from 2k-10k so the ribbons don't have to work as hard.