Advice For First Time Speaker build

[Kirbs252]

Hey guys, my names David. Im 17 and just recently joined HT Guide and have been interested in Hi-Fi for many years. It wasnt until recently until I heard a pair(well actually 4) B&O Beolab 5's. That was beyond amazing.

Im interested in building a set of front floor standing speakers (full range) and need a bit of help. I know a fair bit, but my knowledge is still limited. I would like to go 4 way.Type of Crossover(was thinking of linkwitz-riley from what i've read, but then again I know little about crossovers)
Finally, brand of drivers... I was thinking of the Seas Excel, or maybe the Prestige.

What do you think?

Thanks guys..

[joecarrow]

What's your budget? That's really important. I think that something from Seas, Peerless, Vifa, Scan Speak, or Usher might be a good fit for you. Specifically, Usher is an internationally available asian driver that is a slightly cheaper alternative to the really expensive ones. The reason why the Dayton Reference series drivers are so popular around here is because they are cheap in the US. Internationally they make less sense after shipping and tax is included.

[kingpin]

What's your budget? That's really important. I think that something from Seas, Peerless, Vifa, Scan Speak, or Usher might be a good fit for you. Specifically, Usher is an internationally available asian driver that is a slightly cheaper alternative to the really expensive ones. The reason why the Dayton Reference series drivers are so popular around here is because they are cheap in the US. Internationally they make less sense after shipping and tax is included.

Joe.
You ever sleep man. :B

Mike

[Kirbs252]

well im not to sure of driver prices. Would around 200-400 dollars for drivers sound alright?

[---k---]

I don't want to be a party-pooper or crush your dreams, but designing a 4-way cross over is not the place to start for your first design. A simple two-way would likely be more appropriate. If you haven't already yet, you might want to read Speaker Building 201 and then Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. I'm currently a little overwhelmed while 3/4 way through LDC. While the process is easy, there is a lot of experience and "art" needed to do it well. I think you will see this as you get further into it. Just start out slow and simple.

[TacoD]

Try to build something posted in the "missions accomplished" forum, this way you can learn by doing. Also reading some books/ papers/ websites really helps.

[Kirbs252]

thanks ryan. I've since decided on going 3 way and possibly using the dayton reference drivers.

[ThomasW]

Your living in Oz complicates the situation, since you don't have ready access to low cost drivers like the Dayton Reference Series.

It's probably a good idea to see what drivers are available locally then see if someone has a proven design using some of those drivers.

[joecarrow]

Joe.
You ever sleep man. :B

Mike

I'm on the west coast, and I don't start my new job until Monday at the earliest... so, no!

Kirbs- keep in mind that a proper crossover can cost as much as the drivers. People have probably been telling you to go for an established design and to consider drivers other than the Dayton Reference, and I want to reiterate that again.

[Kirbs252]

Ok thanks for the info. I agree that the expectations I had were to high. Maybe a project like this might be bette. http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ilee/index.htm

[Operandi]

Ok thanks for the info. I agree that the expectations I had were to high. Maybe a project like this might be bette. http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ilee/index.htm

Perhaps if the Dayton drivers still represent a good deal where you are.

I think something like this Troels Gravesen Vifa tower would be a good 1st project, Vifa is generally pretty available.

[Kirbs252]

What I need to do is first work out the 3 drivers & brand, then I can move onto getting help with cabinet size and crossovers.

Ive been told Dayton Reference but apparantly you need to bi-amp or have sizable wattage per channel as they arnt too efficient. Seas also, but pricey(excel, maybe the prestige better choice?) Whats a good brand, readily available and not to $$$

[augerpro]

These guys just started carrying Dayton down in Oz: http://darcheraudio.com.au/
If this is your first project and *if* you want to design it yourself my suggestion is try using the TangBand W5-704S instead of a metal cone like Dayton. The good thing is they perform well, yet are cheap enough that they make a great start into this hobby. SEAS CA or P series are also easy to design with, although quite a bit more expensive.

[joecarrow]

I hate to say it, but DIYaudio.com has a sizable international community, with a small group of excellent contributors from Australia. That would be a good place to ask what stores people use to buy where you're from, and you'd be able to find out what brands are available and at what prices.

If you just happened to be taking a vacation in Dayton, Ohio, then I would whole heartedly recommend stuffing your luggage with Dayton Reference Series drivers. If you have to pay $100 in shipping and taxes on a $30 woofer, than I have to wonder if there is a $100 driver sold locally that would offer similar performance for less than $30 shipping and tax.

Regarding efficiency- it's true that the Dayton drivers aren't as efficient as some, but that's true for a lot of metal cone drivers. It's a tradeoff- a cone that behaves pistonically is often heavier than the floppy paper cones that can be more efficient due to lower mass. There are exceptions, of course, but usually at great cost.

[Kirbs252]

well the Dayton RS might be the way to go. What do you recommend for 3 way. I was thinking:
2 x Reference Shielded 10" Woofer
2 x Reference Aluminum Dome Tweeter
2 x Reference Aluminum Dome Midrange

Interesting thing is that my brother is heading over to the states in less than 2 weeks, maybe I could get him to send them back marked as a 'gift' as to prevent import tax

[augerpro]

Interesting combo. The RS270 starts to break up around 750Hz though. I don't think most people cross the RS52 much under 800 Hz (I think) so that could be a problem crossing to the RS270. Maybe the RS225 would be better? I think there is a design like this floating around here somewhere.

[Kirbs252]

Which one is the RS225? Maybe I could replace the Woofer with a North 19W-06S Kevlar woofer about $49(us) a pair.
What combination do you recommend augerpro. I appreiciate you giving me your time. Thanks a lot.

[augerpro]

If you are prepared to put together and measurement setup and learn how to design XOs the options are pretty wide open. This is a pretty big commitment, but the most rewarding.

OTOH if you just want to build something that sounds good now, check the designs in the Missions Accomplished forum and build one of those.

[Kirbs252]

well I would prefer to start from scratch. I will be getting the enclosures made up(as I dont have right tools on hand). Just need to find what a good selection is for drivers, then can get dimensions for enclosure, and then make up X'over

[Operandi]

If this is your first crossover design wouldn't it be best to stick to 2-way?

[joecarrow]

Doing your first crossover design as a passive three-way with metal cone drivers is akin to saying, "I think I could stand to lose a few pounds. Isn't there a marathon going on around here today?"

I understand the need to feel like you designed it yourself, but trust me- there is a lot of work that needs to be done even without designing it yourself. The payoff will be immense either way you go, but if you elect to design the crossover yourself you could have a few months of hard work ahead of you to get anywhere close to the Mission Accomplished designs.

[tyler]

Have you checked the thread in the Mission Accomplished section by ET regarding the Natalie P?

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13969

I think this would be a great first project.

[Kirbs252]

Thanks a lot tyler, I think I will go with that one. Do they have dimensions for the enclosure, because it might be cheaper to get it made up here in Australia, or are they shipped in pieces from the states?

[joecarrow]

They're shipped pre-made; and they have to be in order to have such a seamless piano gloss finish.

It would probably be cheaper to have them made in Australia. The dimensions for the enclosure are on the Parts Express page, and they're honestly not too cheap to ship here in the US. They're a great value and their build quality and finish is excellent, but it's a big bulky thing to ship overseas.

[thadman]

why not go active with a Behringer DCX2496 and Crown XLS amplification. In that way, you could manipulate your settings (crossover points/slopes, equalization, etc) and not screw up your first time with a passive crossover.

Other than being able to use one amp (but placing a much harder load on that amp) and not wanting to let the "talent" of designing XOs to go to waste, I really dont see any benefits to passive.

[augerpro]

Variable slopes, assymetric slopes for better phase agreement, response contouring, and notches among other things

[Kirbs252]

I'm having difficulty finding the dimensions for the enclosure on the Parts Express site. Could anyone send me the link. Also, is that thread the whole article on how to build the Natalie P's?

[Andy_G]

Maybe its time that I butt in, if that's ok. !

Ok Kirbs, for your own sake, you need to look at the Peerless or Vifa range.
Seas can also be purchased down here, but price is a bit iffy.

I suggest you have a look through the WES range of drivers at http://www.wagner.net.au/speakers/
Maybe a kit from http://www.wagner.net.au/speakers/75-SpeakerSystems.pdf might be appropriate as a first speaker.

Seas can be purchased from http://www.acousticconcepts.com.au/

Apart from that, we are not blessed with much at sensible prices. Although a couple of the Jaycar bass drivers do a very good job eg I think they still carry the 10' poly I used in "Blackwood" (http://members.optusnet.com.au/~grad...lackwood.html),
what Jaycar have left as mids are not much chop at all :-(

You are in Perth or somewhere close, I assume? Do a phone book check for MASS technologies, maybe they still exist and have some drivers floating about.

[Kirbs252]

Hi Andy. Why do you recommend the Peerless or Vifa(are the locally available?) Also, I would need to find a kit that incorporates them, which makes it more difficult. The good thing with the Nat P system is that is not overally complicated and drivers are cheap with good sound. I was going to go with this because my brother is heading to the states in 2 weeks time, and I was going to get him to bring the drivers back. BTW, I'm situated in Melbourne. Thanks for your advice though.

If anyone knows the link to the full construction page for the Nat P's could you please direct me.

[Brian Bunge]

It's in the Missions Accomplished forum.

[PoorboyMike]

Click here--->NatP

There are links to the BOM (bill of materials) at the bottom of the 1st post. Don't forget to include 2 2" precision ports, some binding posts, #6 and #8 pan head screws, and some cabinet dampening foam.

[Andy_G]

Hi Kirbs,

Sorry about the Perth thing. Joe actually said "west coast" and my brain must have thought, "Perth".... DOH !!!

Yes. Peerless and Vifa and Scan are available through WES, SpeakerBits etc

Speakerbits is in Melbourne http://www.speakerbits.com/ but just looking, their prices are pretty unreal !!

If you have an ABN you may be able to arrange trade discount with WES, which will save you a LOT of funds.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. :T

[Kirbs252]

ah ok,I just checked, the inductors are on the list of materials. I thought they had to be wound from scratch. Only thing is that if I use other drivers, I cant use that crossover or enclosure...

Is there a local distributor for Dayton?

[augerpro]

Did you contact that Darcher Audio I linked to? You should probably call them since I don't think their website is up to date. They just started carrying Dayton I believe.

I think your decision comes down mostly to cost. If the Daytons are reasonable anything from this site would be highly recomended. If they are pretty expensive the Peerless kits in that Wagner link look nice.

For some other options using SEAS, Peerless, or Dayton look here: http://rjbaudio.com/projects.html

http://www.zaphaudio.com/

You''l just have to see what drivers are available and for what price and find a project from there.

[Kirbs252]

well im a bit stuck, because I would like to go with the Nat P design, but if I choose you use better/more efficient driver(which I would like to) I will have to find an enclosure that suits them(or could I still use the Nat P one?) and a new crossover...
Solution anyone??

[---k---]

The PE RS drivers are very good drivers - hence all the projects using them. And the NatP and Modulas are not inefficient speakers. They aren't a Klipsh Horn, but... They are probably about normal compared to most commercial speakers. To me, whether a speaker is efficient or not is down a few notches of important - my amp has a volume knob.

[joecarrow]

I say that if you can get the RS drivers for cheap, then they're the value leader. If it's too much trouble to get them where you are, then look at the other designs using Seas, Vifa, and Peerless.

[Kirbs252]

I'll give that a shot.Out of the seas, vifa & peerless, whats best bang for buck?

[joecarrow]

It depends on the driver!

I think that the best bang for the buck out of the whole lot of them, without much question, is the Seas H1212 and H1189 tweeters. They're essentially the same tweeter, but one is a hard dome and the other is soft. These are available for about $32 in the US.

For a step up, the new Peerless HDS tweeter is an excellent performer at a bit over $50. It's supposed to be solidly in competition with some of the best tweeters out there, if I recall correctly.

For mids, vifa has a small neodymium driver that would be good for crossing over higher to a small mid- the D26NC55 tweeter is the one I'm talking about. It won't play as low as the others, but for $27 its quite good.

For mids and woofers, I have of an opinion, but zaphaudio.com has some data on many 6.5" drivers. All of the tweeters I mentioned would be able to work in a 2-way with many of the woofers listed in his 6.5-7" woofer comparison. His data should be able to show which would be compatible.

[Andy_G]

I'll give that a shot.Out of the seas, vifa & peerless, whats best bang for buck?

As I said before, if you can get trade price from WES, you are way in front with Peerless or Vifa.

The Seas distributor charges too much (imo), some Aussie guys find it cheaper to buy Seas from overseas and pay the freight !!!

I don't know what price the the Dayton stuff lands here for (contact Darcher), but whatever you buy from OS, remember to factor in the freight (can be very expensive if you want them quickly and/or you are buying heavy woofers), the time if you go surface mail, and the exchange rate.. (which isn't too bad at the moment).

[Kirbs252]

Ok much appreciated. I spoke to Dan today and have decided(finally) to go with this design here. http://zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker16.html

It uses the Vifa and Seas drivers which will be better than the Daytons. Drivers will be more expensive, but they will be top notch speakers. Been told they should compete with 2-5k speakers. As with the enclosure, I was looking for floorstanding, can use a floorstanding case as designed, but maybe just the boxes on stands?

[Andy_G]

Good choice.

The Seas tweeter will set you back about $56 from Aranmar (Acoustic Concepts).
The Vifa XG's you can get from WES, I can't give you a price at the moment cos Remy has my catalog, and it only has trade prices in it anyway. If you know someone with an ABN, eg a mate who does car stuff you may be able to get Trade prices through WES, helps A LOT !!

You can also get Solen caps and coils (ouch on the Solen coil prices) from WES, or use the standard 18awg WES coils which are cheaper. Wes also have other poly caps, but go with the Solen if the funds are there.

You can get other caps down here, but generally they are at a premium price as far as I have found, so I stick to Solens. I think SpeakerBits or someone sells Auricaps ??

For the 30uF cap, you will need 2 x 15uF or 3 x 10uF because WES only go up to 15uF on the Solens

remember that in Zaph's x-o diagram, R1 and R6 don't really exist, they are the coil Dc impedances.

Good Luck !!

[Kirbs252]

Much appreciated andy, thanks. I'm glad I've decided on these, just much better design and sound. I will be building the floorstanding version and slightly altering the box to make the front completely flush(instead of the drivers on the removable baffle) and making the back removable( just easier for lining and replacing the foam in 20 years time and to get to parts )

Just with the ABN thing, it wouldnt really help me for just 6 drivers would it?