MTM RS180 Seas H1212 tester finished\Too revealing? (threads merged)

[probillygun]

Basically, I agree with most of that everyone has been saying in this thread.

I found the same issue with my MTM's (RS180 - RS28). The issue was - I had a very nasty peak at 2 KHz, and the simulation simply wasn't modeling it. Only real life measurements showed it - and it was quite ugly, a 3 dB peak with a very narrow bandwith. Ouch.

Only after taking real life measurements in baffle, modeling, and then re-measuring it, could I get rid of this baffle effect.

And even then, I found that I found the aluminum drivers to be extremely revealing on some badly recorded music (ie - too "forward"). Classical music sounds absolutely incredible, some pop - rock is too strident.

Anyway, you may even want to use a bit of a BBC dip. I tried it with my speakers, and it helped - a lot.

Now that I've built a couple of poly / paper cones, I find myself preferring their "warm" sound (OK, I know it's not "warm". Let's just say it has a different distortion profile, or a BBC dip is way easier to implement, or you don't have to worry about breakup nodes) to aluminum. BUT - and I'm pretty sure of this by now - I find that a well designed metal cone driver loudspeaker sounds a lot more accurate than a "pleasing" plastic-poly one. Pick your poison...

Thanks, This is pretty much what I thought too.

I've heard several designs over the last 30 + years, and have always been more pleased with the way more conventional drivers behave and sound with mediocre material. Generally I've always prefered the way paper based cones sound Vs metal for midrange. Not to say I havent heard metal drivers sound amazing with the proper demo material. I think its just more difficult to design and achieve. I don't typicaly prefer to listen to that genera of music that has recordings that are super clean and detailed. For me personally, as I attempt MY next design, I will probably stick with paper based cones rather than try metal and/or phase plugged drivers and keep things as simple as possible to make most of my recordings sound at least good and listenable to my ear.

BTW; I'm refering to speakers I've heard from many renouned manufactures, B&W, Vanderstien, Paradigm, Boston, Vienna Acoustics, ect...These have ALL been measured, tested and proven. Which is why I said in my earlier post that lets assume Brian's speakers were "Correct" even though they may not be. I'm trying to get ideas for how I want to design my next project and not end up with speakers that have a sound that's not pleasing to my ear with lesser recordings. My personal opinion is Brian won't be able to get rid of that "Midrange sound" that I don't prefer no matter what he does to them. Maybe he can prove me wrong. But currently I'm planning on staying away from ANY of the Dayton reference drivers as I feel they may be too low in distortion, or may just have a "Sound" I just dont care for for my application.

Thanks guys.
Bill

[cjd]

I should probably also mention - I found the RS180 measurements available from PE did not work well when I tried to "sim" model the WWMTM tower's with that as a midrange.

Paper cone distortion (particularly softer paper) definitely has a pleasing sound. Heck, so does poly. They don't break up in ways that make your ears cry at any rate.

C

[TurboFC3S]

I'm kinda late to the party here, but just wanted to echo similar sentiments about the Dayton drivers. I've built a couple published designs, the RS180/RS28 MTM using the rjbaudio 2-way schematic, and the Modula MT. The MTM was pretty much horrible listening to anything but the most-mellow of music, anything with a guitar or cymbals was painful. The Modula MT wasn't AS bad for me, but certainly wasn't pleasant.

I've since disassembled the MT and re-allocated the cabinets and put the drivers in my car doors. The MTM's I've spent a LOT of time on, measuring and tweaking, and they are better now - but still I can't listen to them for more than 30 minutes at a time.

I have high-quality front end gear (fully Bolder modded Squeezebox with silver bybee's, Parasound Halo C2, ICEpower 1000ASP amps, BPT 3.5 Sig balanced power), and what I find most shocking is that pretty much every speaker I've designed using paper, poly, or nextel cones is MORE detailed and revealing than either of the Dayton designs I built. On their own the Dayton designs would probably be thought of as good sounding, but when compared to the other stuff I have, I find them lacking in pretty much all areas.

With all that said, I haven't made any judgement about the drivers themselves - I'm sure there's a design out there that would change my experience with them, and I'd very much like to hear it.

[Jim Holtz]

I'm kinda late to the party here, but just wanted to echo similar sentiments about the Dayton drivers. I've built a couple published designs, the RS180/RS28 MTM using the rjbaudio 2-way schematic, and the Modula MT. The MTM was pretty much horrible listening to anything but the most-mellow of music, anything with a guitar or cymbals was painful. The Modula MT wasn't AS bad for me, but certainly wasn't pleasant.

I've since disassembled the MT and re-allocated the cabinets and put the drivers in my car doors. The MTM's I've spent a LOT of time on, measuring and tweaking, and they are better now - but still I can't listen to them for more than 30 minutes at a time.

I have high-quality front end gear (fully Bolder modded Squeezebox with silver bybee's, Parasound Halo C2, ICEpower 1000ASP amps, BPT 3.5 Sig balanced power), and what I find most shocking is that pretty much every speaker I've designed using paper, poly, or nextel cones is MORE detailed and revealing than either of the Dayton designs I built. On their own the Dayton designs would probably be thought of as good sounding, but when compared to the other stuff I have, I find them lacking in pretty much all areas.

With all that said, I haven't made any judgement about the drivers themselves - I'm sure there's a design out there that would change my experience with them, and I'd very much like to hear it.

Interesting evaluation of the Modula M/T's. Here's a link to about 30 people that didn't agree with your evaluation. http://home.mchsi.com/~dpeterson/Iowadiy.html

Speaking of DIY's, why don't you bring all of the speakers you mentioned to a DIY near you this fall so we can get feedback from others on your designs? I followed one of your builds at Audio Circle as did many here so I'm surprised you stopped by again.

Jim

[TurboFC3S]

Interesting evaluation of the Modula M/T's. Here's a link to about 30 people that didn't agree with your evaluation. http://home.mchsi.com/~dpeterson/Iowadiy.html

Speaking of DIY's, why don't you bring all of the speakers you mentioned to a DIY near you this fall so we can get feedback from others on your designs? I followed one of your builds at Audio Circle as did many here so I'm surprised you stopped by again.

Jim

Oops, not sure why I called it the Modula MT ... this is the MT build I did, with the RS225's

http://www.markk.claub.net/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm

I almost came up with Pete last year, but I travel 15 or more weekends a year already and just didn't feel like giving up another weekend at home. I'll try again this year to make it work, I have a couple builds that are portable now ... I just spent about 2 hours putting some final touches on a XT25/M-165x bookshelf that sounds pretty good right now, that would be an easy one to bring. Others I could bring are a 2-way transmission line floorstander with Peerless 830884 and Morel Supremo 110 tweets, and the new Raw Acoustics OB2X. I could also bring my Dayton MTM's to see if everybody else hears the same problems in them I do.

[Jim Holtz]

Oops, not sure why I called it the Modula MT ... this is the MT build I did, with the RS225's

http://www.markk.claub.net/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm

I almost came up with Pete last year, but I travel 15 or more weekends a year already and just didn't feel like giving up another weekend at home. I'll try again this year to make it work, I have a couple builds that are portable now ... I just spent about 2 hours putting some final touches on a XT25/M-165x bookshelf that sounds pretty good right now, that would be an easy one to bring. Others I could bring are a 2-way transmission line floorstander with Peerless 830884 and Morel Supremo 110 tweets, and the new Raw Acoustics OB2X. I could also bring my Dayton MTM's to see if everybody else hears the same problems in them I do.

I didn't realize you were friends with Pete. I hope you can join us. I know Pete is planning on coming. He and I have "stimulating" discussions regarding ribbons. :rofl:

Here's a link to the Iowa DIY 2007 event. http://home.mchsi.com/~iowadiy2007/index.html

I'm not hosting this year but will be on hand with my Statements project and possible one other.

I hope to see you there.

Jim

[fjhuerta]

I'm kinda late to the party here, but just wanted to echo similar sentiments about the Dayton drivers. I've built a couple published designs, the RS180/RS28 MTM using the rjbaudio 2-way schematic, and the Modula MT. The MTM was pretty much horrible listening to anything but the most-mellow of music, anything with a guitar or cymbals was painful. The Modula MT wasn't AS bad for me, but certainly wasn't pleasant.

That's strange. I built the Natalies first, following the Mission Possible plans. And I had the same experience you did. Anything with cymbals or high energy was painful.

That's when I found out about the 3 dB peak at 2 KHz.

I don't know if this was because of the particular drivers I was using, or if the design is extremely sensitive to variations. One thing I know is - I had to re-design the entire crossover.

I could never understand what I did wrong.

[4thSeason]

Well I guess it is certainly time to measure these things. I ordered my M-Audio USB Pre from Newegg and its B/O right now, so I ordered one from amazon for $25 less. Who knows when I'll get it. Now if anyone wants they can chime in as to how we want it measures. I am not opposed to making an anechoic test arrea but it would be easier to do it in my dining room :P .

What software is best recomended? I have realRTA. a Notebook and ECM8000 and soon my MAudio. I certainly hope my measurements can shed some light on this discussion, lord knows I haven't.

Bri

[---k---]

But yet, I've listened to CJD's MTMs and 3-ways a couple of times and thought they were great. Lots of people love the DM RS 3-ways. But, on the other hand I've listened to those "renouned manufactures" with "tested and proven" designs using non-metallic cones and thought they were terrible. In fact, I had a pair of Paradigm Studio 40s sitting right next to CJD's budget MTM using the RS150s and the DIY with metal cones were clearly superior, and I wasn't listening to just pristine classical music. IIRC, I listened to Dave Mathews, Coldplay, Norah Jones, Live, and I'm sure a few others. I didn't have any problems.

Many here find Paridigms to be painful to listen to. If that or B&W is your idea of good, then.... to each his own.

[TurboFC3S]

I didn't realize you were friends with Pete. I hope you can join us. I know Pete is planning on coming. He and I have "stimulating" discussions regarding ribbons. :rofl:

Here's a link to the Iowa DIY 2007 event. http://home.mchsi.com/~iowadiy2007/index.html

I'm not hosting this year but will be on hand with my Statements project and possible one other.

I hope to see you there.

Pete's one of those "if you can't measure it, you can't hear it guys" so telling him why you enjoy ribbons usually doesn't get anywhere. Me, I have 4 sets of true ribbons in the house right now, all that matters to me is the sound. I couldn't care less if it's 200% 5th order distorition, if it sounds fantastic.

Thanks, I'd love to hear the Statements! They look like a great design, specifically I'd love to hear those 'tuned' chambers the mids are in. I just finished my first open baffle, that OB2X, and am planning on another using dipole bass, some custom C-Quenze 15H's I just ordered, and my Raven R2.1's.

[TurboFC3S]

Well I guess it is certainly time to measure these things. I ordered my M-Audio USB Pre from Newegg and its B/O right now, so I ordered one from amazon for $25 less. Who knows when I'll get it. Now if anyone wants they can chime in as to how we want it measures. I am not opposed to making an anechoic test arrea but it would be easier to do it in my dining room :P .

What software is best recomended? I have realRTA. a Notebook and ECM8000 and soon my MAudio. I certainly hope my measurements can shed some light on this discussion, lord knows I haven't.

Bri

Download the free Demo version of ARTA, it's all you need for measurements ... and you don't need an anechoic test area, just learn how to use the gating. Since you'll just be looking for the 'problem area' with the speakers, you can pretty much just slap everything together, do a measurement, and get the data you need.

[4thSeason]

Well Ryan I think Bill was making a generalization about speakers produced for the masses. He and I have both listened to B&W Nautilus Prestige speakers(Not to my tatse) but none the less quite above average.

But I agree with you in the regard to each his own. Where I feel he is coming from is he listened to my design and found that he, in his build, wants to stear clear of the possible challanges I am facing, which until tested, we don't exactly understand
His goals differ greatly from mine but none the less he is trying to be helpful in that he has listened to them first hand.

[cjd]

Pete's one of those "if you can't measure it, you can't hear it guys" so telling him why you enjoy ribbons usually doesn't get anywhere. Me, I have 4 sets of true ribbons in the house right now, all that matters to me is the sound. I couldn't care less if it's 200% 5th order distorition, if it sounds fantastic.

On the other hand, maybe Pete's one of those "your ears may like it, but it's not what you're saying it is you're hearing" guys. For example, perhaps not more accurate, and instead just your favorite form of distortion. If your ears disagree with measurements... it's probably your brain getting in the way. Dunno why, but I always feel the statement "can't measure it, can't hear it" is mildly insulting to the people said opinion is attributed.

[TurboFC3S]

On the other hand, maybe Pete's one of those "your ears may like it, but it's not what you're saying it is you're hearing" guys. For example, perhaps not more accurate, and instead just your favorite form of distortion. If your ears disagree with measurements... it's probably your brain getting in the way. Dunno why, but I always feel the statement "can't measure it, can't hear it" is mildly insulting to the people said opinion is attributed.

If you let some software and a mic tell your brain what you like instead of your ears, then you're missing the entire point of music.

[cjd]

Who said anything about telling your brain what you like? That's an asinine supposition put forth by people that (seem to) dislike what measurements say about their pet drivers to try to discredit such practices as measuring. And music has NOTHING to do with speaker design/building, except that in the end you'll be rendering music on the resulting equipment.

Saying you like "air" is a relatively empy and useless comment. Understanding you like the certain distortion profile of a ribbon tweeter and what it lends to the sound - now that's useful. You could force yourself to stick to ribbons, but may meet one you dislike. Uh oh, now what?! If you understand the measurements behind your likes (and dislikes) provides you a foundation on which to build. Saying you like the smooth sound of poly isn't necessarily helpful - there is stiff poly and there is floppy poly. What you may really mean is you like having all response from 1-3kHz heavily damped. Useful when you're listening to female vocalists that swallow the mic but rather hurtful if you prefer string orchestra.

The ear is an incredibly sensitive instrument. The brain is one of the worst interpreters of such a sensitive instrument to ever exist - it doesn't break things down (for most people) in a useful way for designing a speaker.

How many times do we hear someone blast a tweeter for being harsh when in fact it's the midrange causing the problems?

C

[fjhuerta]

Well I guess it is certainly time to measure these things. I ordered my M-Audio USB Pre from Newegg and its B/O right now, so I ordered one from amazon for $25 less. Who knows when I'll get it. Now if anyone wants they can chime in as to how we want it measures. I am not opposed to making an anechoic test arrea but it would be easier to do it in my dining room :P .

What software is best recomended? I have realRTA. a Notebook and ECM8000 and soon my MAudio. I certainly hope my measurements can shed some light on this discussion, lord knows I haven't.

Bri

With MLS software (justMLS, included on LSPCad, or SoundEasy), you don't need an anechoic room.

[---k---]

Well Ryan I think Bill was making a generalization

Well, thats the problems with generalizations.

A metal v. all other cone material threads really isn't useful. It isn't the cone material that is the issue usually, it is how the crossover deals with it. It is impossible to compare a to b.

I'm moving along now.

[AJINFLA]

Download the free Demo version of ARTA, it's all you need for measurements ... and you don't need an anechoic test area, just learn how to use the gating. Since you'll just be looking for the 'problem area' with the speakers, you can pretty much just slap everything together, do a measurement, and get the data you need.

If you let some software and a mic tell your brain what you like instead of your ears, then you're missing the entire point of music.

:scratchhead:

Why would there be a need to measure anything if then if he should just trust his ears? You just completely contradicted yourself. Does he "miss the point" and measure with software/mic, or just listen and let his ear/brain tell him what he likes?

I have high-quality front end gear (fully Bolder modded Squeezebox with silver bybee's, Parasound Halo C2, ICEpower 1000ASP amps, BPT 3.5 Sig balanced power), and what I find most shocking is that pretty much every speaker I've designed using paper, poly, or nextel cones is MORE detailed and revealing than either of the Dayton designs I built. On their own the Dayton designs would probably be thought of as good sounding, but when compared to the other stuff I have, I find them lacking in pretty much all areas. .

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "silver bybee"? What makes that gear "high quality"? Measured performance? Price? Something else?
I don't doubt you when you say that the paper and poly (BTW, the nextel cones are simply stiffened paper) designs that you created are more detailed/revealing than the Dayton metals. Nothing shocking there at all. But this has scant to do with the drivers themselves, but rather, the design(er). Some measured data from the different finished speakers would shed some light (for some), but I do have doubts - that there will be any.

cheers,

AJ

[Raptor550]

I used to use tracy chapman as a test cd. One problem, if it can be called that, is TC seems to make any reasonable system sound magnificant. It also has a cealing to how much it can improve. when some similar music will have benefit from moveing from a 7k speaker to a 30k I do not think tracy does (IMO). Its not good for seperating the wheat from the chaff.

I have found that high fidelity CD's I do not like are the best to judge sound on. theres an "enhanced sterio" high-fi jazz cd that i never really liked but I found the better the system, the more I started to appritiate it. So I take some CD's I am *really* familiar with that would push a system that I can groove to: i like blue man group, holst, sujan stevens, and tortious.

-and some other stuff that I dont really like but I know will sound good:
cheseky's records demo CD, classic jazz, and stuff.

[Mark K]

Oops, not sure why I called it the Modula MT ... this is the MT build I did, with the RS225's

http://www.markk.claub.net/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm

I almost came up with Pete last year, but I travel 15 or more weekends a year already and just didn't feel like giving up another weekend at home. I'll try again this year to make it work, I have a couple builds that are portable now ... I just spent about 2 hours putting some final touches on a XT25/M-165x bookshelf that sounds pretty good right now, that would be an easy one to bring. Others I could bring are a 2-way transmission line floorstander with Peerless 830884 and Morel Supremo 110 tweets, and the new Raw Acoustics OB2X. I could also bring my Dayton MTM's to see if everybody else hears the same problems in them I do.

I wouldn't mind a bit more information about what you thought. I don't recall specifically emailing you about this design, unless I am not remembering correctly. I've specifically thrown out the disclaimer that the tweeters must be individually tested and pretty much offer anyone who wants free testing. Also, these do have full baffle step so sound overbearing near walls or in relatively small rooms.

As to detail. Detail is a nebulous term. True detail is generally only found when the spl is concert level. Anything less than that generally has less realism and detail. I would not describe the RS225/RS28A as detailed. It is neutral (except for the bafflestep). If you're looking for "detail" I would direct you to ribbons, focals and the like...

Sorry about the OT post. Not much to say except-if you don't measure...

Anybody remember the convergence adjustments in the back of old color tv's. You could play around for hours getting a "nice" visual picture only to notice the picture looked like junk on some other signal. If you didn't have the right test generators and knew the adjustment sequence, well...


Edit-I missed the part about the bybees.

jeez, use these bybees and I'm sure it will clear the sound up...

http://www.tweekgeek.com/product.asp?pf_id=BGGSPk

[TurboFC3S]

:scratchhead:

Why would there be a need to measure anything if then if he should just trust his ears? You just completely contradicted yourself. Does he "miss the point" and measure with software/mic, or just listen and let his ear/brain tell him what he likes?

Nice internet nit-picking simply to try and instigate drama that isn't there.

Nobody builds a speaker with JUST their ears, just like nobody does it with JUST measurement gear. You use both, but the final judge should always be your ears.

I know you get that, but if you just want to try and argue that's fine.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "silver bybee"? What makes that gear "high quality"? Measured performance? Price? Something else?
I don't doubt you when you say that the paper and poly (BTW, the nextel cones are simply stiffened paper) designs that you created are more detailed/revealing than the Dayton metals. Nothing shocking there at all. But this has scant to do with the drivers themselves, but rather, the design(er). Some measured data from the different finished speakers would shed some light (for some), but I do have doubts - that there will be any.

Here's the bybee website, they have all sorts of applications. Primarily what they achieve is lowering of the noise floor.

http://www.bybeetech.com/

Sorry, but just about anybody into audio would recognize my current front-end as high quality gear. I only made the comment to show what I'm using, and to rule that out as any source of problems.

How am I going to post measurements of the RS225/RS28 MT when I already said twice that the drivers have been mounted in my car doors? And the measurements from the MTM are pretty much flat, just like Roman shows they should look on his site. When I finish up the two other projects I'm in the middle of now, I'll take more and post them. But that's the whole point, they measure flat, nothing sticks out as a problem, yet they're simply harder to listen to than other speakers in the house which measure very much the same.

[Mark K]

:scratchhead:

Why would there be a need to measure anything if then if he should just trust his ears? You just completely contradicted yourself. Does he "miss the point" and measure with software/mic, or just listen and let his ear/brain tell him what he likes?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "silver bybee"? What makes that gear "high quality"? Measured performance? Price? Something else?
I don't doubt you when you say that the paper and poly (BTW, the nextel cones are simply stiffened paper) designs that you created are more detailed/revealing than the Dayton metals. Nothing shocking there at all. But this has scant to do with the drivers themselves, but rather, the design(er). Some measured data from the different finished speakers would shed some light (for some), but I do have doubts - that there will be any.

cheers,

AJ

AJ,

Don't you remember the in depth discussion of bybee filters on the MAD board a couple of years ago? Folks who use bybee filters are probably pursuing a different pathway to audio enlightenment.

Anyway, I will mod my site to state that the RS225/RS28A's are not compatible with bybee filters...

[TurboFC3S]

I wouldn't mind a bit more information about what you thought. I don't recall specifically emailing you about this design, unless I am not remembering correctly. I've specifically thrown out the disclaimer that the tweeters must be individually tested and pretty much offer anyone who wants free testing. Also, these do have full baffle step so sound overbearing near walls or in relatively small rooms.

As to detail. Detail is a nebulous term. True detail is generally only found when the spl is concert level. Anything less than that generally has less realism and detail. I would not describe the RS225/RS28A as detailed. It is neutral (except for the bafflestep). If you're looking for "detail" I would direct you to ribbons, focals and the like...

Sorry about the OT post. Not much to say except-if you don't measure...

Anybody remember the convergence adjustments in the back of old color tv's. You could play around for hours getting a "nice" visual picture only to notice the picture looked like junk on some other signal. If you didn't have the right test generators and knew the adjustment sequence, well...


Edit-I missed the part about the bybees.

jeez, use these bybees and I'm sure it will clear the sound up...

http://www.tweekgeek.com/product.asp?pf_id=BGGSPk

I simply built my pair with your schematics. I measured after, and it looked nice, I don't remember exactly but I do remember comparing to your published response curves and they were near identical. I used them about 6 feet out from the walls too, so full baffle step was needed. They did have nice bass for a small sealed bookshelf, and I like the RS28 sound. I don't know, maybe I'm more sensitive to that upper-midrange edge, but that's what makes these (for me) and the RS180 MTM's so hard to listen too.

Detail in this case I'm thinking of micro-detail, simply the ability to discern all the small bits of the music separately. For comparisons I use my Wharfedale Evo 30's, because they completely lack that ability! I don't think of detail and natural as being mutually exclusive.

BTW, only fools pay those ridiculous prices for some of the Bybee products. The bybee's I'm talking about were part of the Squeezebox modifications from Bolder - http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/Detail?no=387 - and there are bybee's in my BPT 3.5 Sig, and I've picked up some raw ones cheap (like $50 each) just for playing around with.

[AJINFLA]

Nobody builds a speaker with JUST their ears

On the contrary. I would say the majority on DIY sites do just that. This place is possibly the exception.

Here's the bybee website, they have all sorts of applications. Primarily what they achieve is lowering of the noise floor.

That was some extremely entertaining reading. Thank you.
Lowers noise floor eh? Terrific, because that is quite measurable. Seen any/got any measurements of such?

How am I going to post measurements of the RS225/RS28 MT when I already said twice that the drivers have been mounted in my car doors?

I was hoping you might have taken some when/while they were built. That's generally when measurements should be done. Apparently none were. It might have been easier to figure out what went wrong that way.

And the measurements from the MTM are pretty much flat, just like Roman shows they should look on his site. When I finish up the two other projects I'm in the middle of now, I'll take more and post them. But that's the whole point, they measure flat, nothing sticks out as a problem, yet they're simply harder to listen to than other speakers in the house which measure very much the same.

Measure "Pretty much flat"? What measures flat? Impedance? Phase? On axis FR? Distortion? Off axis FR? At what distance/SPL?

I noticed both designs feature the same tweeter and you stated

I've built a couple published designs, the RS180/RS28 MTM using the rjbaudio 2-way schematic, and the Modula MT. The MTM was pretty much horrible listening to anything but the most-mellow of music, anything with a guitar or cymbals was painful. The Modula MT (MarkK's RS225/RS28 ) wasn't AS bad for me, but certainly wasn't pleasant.

Do you think it might have been the metal RS28 (in those measured/built to spec loudspeakers) making the top end painful/unpleasant?

cheers,

AJ

[AJINFLA]

AJ,

Don't you remember the in depth discussion of bybee filters on the MAD board a couple of years ago? Folks who use bybee filters are probably pursuing a different pathway to audio enlightenment.

Anyway, I will mod my site to state that the RS225/RS28A's are not compatible with bybee filters...

No. But that probably has more to do with selective memory loss or the data banks eventually dumping utterly useless information cells.
I've found a much more scientifically rigorous and consistent way to improve upon my stereo qwality at a bargain price.

There are also options to add Bybee Purifiers in the analog and/or digital signal path
Bybee Purifiers will give yout sound a "blacker" background. There are three choices: Copper, Silver or Gold, The Silver is a more "accurate" sound than the Copper. The Gold is a warmer, more "analog" sound.

I'm shocked that they missed that Silver is also great for warding off vampires, which is a significant problem in audiophile circles.
Oh well. Gotta give dem yout's what dey want.

cheers,

AJ

[Mark K]

I simply built my pair with your schematics. I measured after, and it looked nice, I don't remember exactly but I do remember comparing to your published response curves and they were near identical. I used them about 6 feet out from the walls too, so full baffle step was needed. They did have nice bass for a small sealed bookshelf, and I like the RS28 sound. I don't know, maybe I'm more sensitive to that upper-midrange edge, but that's what makes these (for me) and the RS180 MTM's so hard to listen too.

Detail in this case I'm thinking of micro-detail, simply the ability to discern all the small bits of the music separately. For comparisons I use my Wharfedale Evo 30's, because they completely lack that ability! I don't think of detail and natural as being mutually exclusive.

BTW, only fools pay those ridiculous prices for some of the Bybee products. The bybee's I'm talking about were part of the Squeezebox modifications from Bolder - http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/Detail?no=387 - and there are bybee's in my BPT 3.5 Sig, and I've picked up some raw ones cheap (like $50 each) just for playing around with.

What kind of measurement setup do you have? What was the measurement setup? Did you test the tweeters distortion performance?

I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but again, upper midrange harshness would most likely come only from a pair of tweeters that could not handle a low xover point. This is a well known problem that I have made painstaking attempts to document. As correctly designed, while this speaker does have limitations, an upper midrange harshness is not one of them. You either had a set of tweeters that could not handle 1.3k and did not check this, or your drivers/implimentation had other issues (Although I am not aware of any RS midwoofers with the type of issue you describe.) As I believe I commented on, the limitation of these is a midrange congestion at high spls. Better than the typical 7" MT, but still there, as is the case with any two way. I hear it, and the measurements confirm it.

I have not discerned any midrange harshness in my pair, upper or otherwise. Neigher did anyone else at the diy these were demo'd at. And, this makes sense as I cannot find any excess distortion measurements in the midrange. So you see, measurments and listening agree, as they should.

[ThomasW]

This isn't a thread about "tweaks".

This means discussion regarding Bybee's or anything like them don't belong here.

So everyone, it's time to get back on topic.....

[fjhuerta]

Sorry, but just about anybody into audio would recognize my current front-end as high quality gear. I only made the comment to show what I'm using, and to rule that out as any source of problems.

Not to nitpick, but I considered your rig to be mid-fi. I use McIntosh vintage tube equipment (MC-30's with the MX-110) - now *that's* what I consider high quality gear (let's see if your gear keeps on working almost 50 years later!).

Just joking - high quality gear is in the eyes of the beholder I don't think bragging about your equipment's quality will get you very far in a forum like this.

[fjhuerta]

That was some extremely entertaining reading. Thank you.
Lowers noise floor eh? Terrific, because that is quite measurable. Seen any/got any measurements of such?

March 19, 2007
THE BEST BYBEE ACCESSORY EVER!
The newly developed Bybee Golden Goddess 'Super Effect' Speaker Bullets, connected at the end of your speaker cables, deliver the equivalent of system-wide internal Bybee upgrades

I see someone just found out the Machina Dynamica guys have a great sca... er... business going on, and decided to imitate their model...

[ThomasW]

If this thread doesn't quickly return to the original topic it's going to be locked.

[TurboFC3S]

The point I was trying to add to this topic was my experience, which was almost exactly that of the OP. Both my Dayton Reference systems would sound pretty good on a lot of acoustic or more mellow music, but would show a really hard edge on rock and more complex music - and Tool Undertow was one that really showed the edge, just as the OP also found.

[cjd]

Was there classical in that "complex music"?

A lot of rock is recorded as well as it could be - some of it is downright poorly recorded/mastered, the goal to get it to sound "right" on cheap crap systems. Highly revealing systems don't do so well with this stuff.

C

[AJINFLA]

The point I was trying to add to this topic was my experience, which was almost exactly that of the OP.

The experience of non-measurement before or during the design process?
Leading to unsatisfactory results. Then blaming the drive units. :roll:
Hopefully the OP will show us some measurements eventually so we can see the issues involved. No such luck with you it would appear.

cheers,

AJ

[TurboFC3S]

Was there classical in that "complex music"?

A lot of rock is recorded as well as it could be - some of it is downright poorly recorded/mastered, the goal to get it to sound "right" on cheap crap systems. Highly revealing systems don't do so well with this stuff.

C

Some classical yes, I have a Telarc disc, called something like "Ultimate Demo" that I use for testing ... and my wife is a pianist and listed to some Rudolf Serkin.

I know most rock is recorded horribly, but Tool isn't one of those.

[Dennis H]

Oops, nevermind.

[speedle]

Aren't we still waiting for some measurements here?

I admit to being intrigued by this RS28 inconsistency issue, maybe it explains why my left speaker doesn't sound exactly like the right one. Or maybe not. Anyway, we're all just trying to learn here.

[fjhuerta]

Aren't we still waiting for some measurements here?

I admit to being intrigued by this RS28 inconsistency issue, maybe it explains why my left speaker doesn't sound exactly like the right one. Or maybe not. Anyway, we're all just trying to learn here.

I'd have assumed the RS28 issues would be addressed by now. IIRC, Darren inspected all of them personally at one time... am I wrong?

[JonMarsh]

Darren has been gone a long time.

[---k---]

But, they have been testing each one and labeling the sensitivity on the driver.

[Jim Holtz]

I don't think there was ever an issue with the RS28 not meeting it's spec of 1.6K. It's when you push it to the extremes as Mark did in his design that not all were able to perform equally. It is also the reason that Mark cautioned everyone to be sure and test their RS28's to make sure before building his design.

That's how I remember the discussion anyway.

Jim

[4thSeason]

Been away on buiness for a week sorry I haven't been on. Just like building I am certainly no expert at testing either. I did run the RTA with pink noise to establish some sort of curve to show so far. This is in my living room about ten inches from the speaker on axis. Again be gentle I am still learning here. Any measurements you guys want me to make just let me know and if I can do it I will do my best.

Bri

[cjd]

Looks pretty darned flat to me. Which many people are not very used to hearing - they like a nice "BBC dip".

What mic are you using? (trying to establish if the rise in output at the top is the mic, the speaker, or something of both. If it's real, it may be the culprit. That will make things like fingers moving over wound guitar strings almost make me cringe (Paradigm anyone?! :cry: )

Try the same measurement at your listening position also - that will show us what's going on in the room that may be causing trouble.

[AJINFLA]

Looks pretty darned flat to me

I disagree. That's a huge rise at the top end that should not be there. Change the "dB Top" from 180 to 100dB. to increase the vertical scale resolution. The scale/resolution being used would be ok for Tangband or maybe Fostex.
Use at least 1/6th octave, preferably 1/12th resolution, not 1/3rd.
Keep in mind that the XO was designed incompetently in fantasy land. No measurements were taken during the design/build process.
Individual driver responses (baffle mounted) are needed as well. With mic to speaker position being held relatively constant.

cheers,

AJ

[cjd]

AJ, I should have said, it seems relatively flat through the crossover region which is where some thought problems might exist. I still think they might.

Aside from the changes AJ mantioned, take some off-axis measurements at 1 meter.

C

[JonMarsh]

I'm with AJ on this one- that's about an 8 dB peak at 10 kHz.

More important is how the midwoofer rolls off, and how well it's stuff above 2 kHz is suppressed. You can do a final curve that looks flat but has so much crud at -15 dB coming from the midwoofer that it's unlistenable.

Now, I'm not such a fan of BBC dips, either, though with a lot of recordings it may be desirable. On that point I'm with CJD, but it takes care with source material, room setup, and electronics for that to work out well. Even the Orions have a BBC dip (not very big, but it's engineered in there). The power response of the three way I'm working on will have a bit of a BBC dip, but not the on axis.