Speakers Anonymous

[Branwell]

I must say, this hobby is infuriating…..

Got some modular three ways with a DEQX crossover which makes them really easy to reconfigure….and therein lies the problem.

I found that all the configurations I have have strengths and weaknesse, and all of them can sound outstanding…..on certain music…..at certain playback levels.

Problem is, I’ve not come across any single configuration that does it all really well and this leads to a constant rotation of modules…….

The weeks flavor is - WMTMs configured with 15” pro bass drivers in ported boxes, Seas W18ex mids in sealed boxes and Seas Millennium tweeters. This mornings crossover used 96db slopes at 200hz and 2000hz. Tonight, who knows…..

Damn…this stuffs like crack…need to go to a Speakers Anonymous meeting... :B

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, you've got problems. The thing is, recordings are made with different monitors under different conditions, and optimizing for the sound you want in your room could involve a lot of fiddling.

How about figuring out some classes of "presets" that deal with typical classes, like hard rock/pop of middling quality, neafield mic'd jazz, farfield classical, nearfield classical, etc? You'd be imposing some "house curves" on top of the setup and equalization required to get a good measured house curve with the system... Don't forget using something like RPG Acoustics room Optimizer to figure out your best starting point acoustically before diving into the electronic control.

~Jon

[TacoD]

If my project is finished I always start another project. At some point I do not know which driver to use this time .

Like Jon said, make a couple of presets (not too many, otherwise you cannot choose ).

[mazurek]

I'm relatively inexperienced with this compared to the veterans, but in my experience there are some key problems that lead to annoyance. And I as well am motivated in some cases by annoyance with the sound, but I'd say I'm definitely getting closer.

I think the first thing to annoy me when listening to relatively well designed speakers is peaky response (which may not be apparent if you only measured at one polar location) and nonlinear distortion.

The thing that annoys me over longer periods of time is the omission of certain parts of the frequency spectrum, either on axis or in an un-uniform power response.

I agree with Jon, that ultimately you'd need eq to get all music to sound good. But I think you first need to work out all the problems making your speakers sound overtly bad. After all sorts of measurements, I find that tuning the speakers to sound the least bad possible with a large variety of recordings gets far more mileage than tuning for great sound with audiophile recordings. I've heard some real bad systems sound absolutely great with the right audiophile garbage.

Then after you tune out the overtly annoying things, I would apply eq.

[JonMarsh]

I'm relatively inexperienced with this compared to the veterans, but in my experience there are some key problems that lead to annoyance. And I as well am motivated in some cases by annoyance with the sound, but I'd say I'm definitely getting closer.

I think the first thing to annoy me when listening to relatively well designed speakers is peaky response (which may not be apparent if you only measured at one polar location) and nonlinear distortion.

The thing that annoys me over longer periods of time is the omission of certain parts of the frequency spectrum, either on axis or in an un-uniform power response.

I agree with Jon, that ultimately you'd need eq to get all music to sound good. But I think you first need to work out all the problems making your speakers sound overtly bad. After all sorts of measurements, I find that tuning the speakers to sound the least bad possible with a large variety of recordings gets far more mileage than tuning for great sound with audiophile recordings. I've heard some real bad systems sound absolutely great with the right audiophile garbage.

Then after you tune out the overtly annoying things, I would apply eq.

I'm too naive- I already ASSUME one has done the ground work and the speaker has uniform on and off axis repsonse, smooth power response, minimal interaction with the room, correct placement in the room, and doesn't use drivers in a part of the range where they generate higher levels of linear or nonlinear distortion.

But certainly good points and reminders to raise...

I mention room placement because it can result in so many problems with monpole speakers- I didn't hear a single one at CES 2006 that had good uniform in room bass response. Of course, what do you expect in hotel rooms, but then, large hotel rooms are not so different from many of our homes, eh?

[cjd]

So, if you want to eliminate some of the misery, upgrade to a passive between the mids and tweet. I heard a surprising difference in one of Jim Salk's when he want DEQX to passive on the exact same speakers - mostly low level detail as usual, and definitely subtle. I wasn't in the sweet spot for that change though, and the room was pretty rough.

C

[kingpin]

Me to, me to.

I can't stop fiddling with the cx2310 crossover when playing different styles of music.
Would be nice to have the DCX where I could store some presets.
Lots of fiddling goes on when one listens to music from Sarah McLaughlin to The Tragically Hip to Bob Marley to Metallica.

I am know starting to look for music that has been remastered or on DVD audio for a cleaner sound.

I am really starting to hate the quality of some of the music I own.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Mike

[Branwell]

Hey C,

Interesting comment about running a passive mid to tweeter crossover.

I’m not so good at creating passive crossovers and to date have not created any that can outperform the DEQX, however, I do have a pair of MT speakers that use the Scan Speak 18W/8545s and Northcreek D28 tweeters from the Northcreek Borallis kit.

Using these as the mid / tweeter units on the three ways with Norths passive crossover doing mid to tweeter and the DEQX just handling mid to bass, does result in better sound than having the DEQX handle the tweeter mid integration as well as mid to bass.

The MTM tops I’m currently using containing the Seas drivers are the BESL Series 5s. I got them a while back without crossovers. Am planning on building up the passive networks for them and see how they fare.

branwell

[cjd]

Ahh, I know the BESL's. Heard them with the sub, all crossed with the DCX. I was quite disappointed.

That driver combo is one I would consider as an upgrade in my WWMTM's though, superb stuff.

C

[Branwell]

C,

I have a real love hate relationship with the Seas w18 Excel bass mids. Currently loving em.

They do have something special about the midrange, but they just don’t seem to get me excited in the bass department….and I don’t mean lo bass. Even handed off to real bass drivers at 100hz doesn’t seem do it. To me, one really needs to hand them off above 180hz to get the best from them. I noticed the same thing with the W22. Just don’t seem to have any real bite down low, almost sound compressed.

Anyway, all’s fun……

branwell

[cjd]

Yup. I wouldn't toss the RS270's at all for a Seas variant. I cross above 300Hz to the 180's.

C