Let me get this straight ...

[TurboFC3S]

So according to this:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24024

I can't talk about or post pictures of the MTMWW I'm building using GR Research drivers? Is that right?

[cotdt]

I'm sure it's fine to talk about the drivers, just not about the kit.

[cjd]

Is it a kit, or a new project and you're just using GR Research drivers?

If it's a kit, I think woodworking/finishing questions, etc. are probably not going to be an issue, general construction stuff probably wouldn't be a problem (i.e. here's a schematic, am I wiring this right). Though we're not support for any vendors... That's my take on things though, not any official word.

If it's using GR drivers I don't know - we use drivers from LOTS of vendors, but GR is different in that they also offer product beyond simple parts. Not sure if that makes them a tough call or not. But if you're not looking for discussion on the drivers themselves at all...

*shrug*

C

[TurboFC3S]

Search for the last thread I started about my GR project.

I started as a 2.5 way, decided that wasn't the best way to implement those drivers, and now am going MTMWW - the MTM part is essentially an AV/3, the WW is 2 M-165x woofers. It's not a kit by any means.

As somebody who runs 3 massive automotive forums and has to manage over 50 paying vendors, I think the rule is absolutely ridiculous. But of course I respect whatever the rules are here, just as I'd expect people to do on my forums. But if I can't post pictures, measurements, and have a discussion during the build I'd like to know now so I can head back over to diyaudio.com

[Dennis H]

So according to this:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24024

I can't talk about or post pictures of the MTMWW I'm building using GR Research drivers? Is that right?

No, that's not right. I don't see where it says that. Thomas's posting is about kits. You aren't building a kit. Drivers from whatever source are fair game on this forum. Talk away.

[digital desire]

I would say not a kit = post away!
Your own design.
But I'm new around here. I think that rule came up right after I posted asking if anyone built a certain kit.

[Dennis H]

nevermind

[Dan B]

Looks like this means drivers etc...

"Note this exclusion also includes discussion about any drivers or other components exclusive to kit vendors."

[Dennis H]

Oops, I guess it does say that. My bad.......

[Mazeroth]

I think you're going to have to go to diyaudio.

[cotdt]

ewww... nothing ever happens on diyaudio. all they talk about are horn-loaded enclosures...

[TurboFC3S]

Well, that's kinda why I'd like to be able to stay here and talk about it Although there are some European guys over there with unique and interesting perspectives. It would be fun to have some of those guys involved in the discussions here.

[Rick Craig]

Search for the last thread I started about my GR project.

I started as a 2.5 way, decided that wasn't the best way to implement those drivers, and now am going MTMWW - the MTM part is essentially an AV/3, the WW is 2 M-165x woofers. It's not a kit by any means.

As somebody who runs 3 massive automotive forums and has to manage over 50 paying vendors, I think the rule is absolutely ridiculous. But of course I respect whatever the rules are here, just as I'd expect people to do on my forums. But if I can't post pictures, measurements, and have a discussion during the build I'd like to know now so I can head back over to diyaudio.com

As a kit vendor I agree that the rules are too strict and eliminate a great deal of information that could make this forum better. I do understand some of the issues involved and the desire to keep things free of advertising / self-promotion by vendors.

Anyone who has followed the Madisound site for several years knows that they've allowed anyone to participate, including companies who could be considered their competitors. A few of those companies have in my opinion abused the forum in order to promote their products. Very unethical and I'm sure Thomas wants to avoid the same thing happening here. A little moderation helps keep the site enjoyable for everyone.

I disagree about forums that are run by the kit supplier as *always* being totally biased. I don't mind critical opinions in my Audio Circle forum as long as the tone is civil and the opinions have some technical credibility. These type of discussions can be beneficial for everyone if handled correctly.

[ThomasW]

I do understand some of the issues involved and the desire to keep things free of advertising / self-promotion by vendors.

It was not only advertising and self promotion that caused problems.

Certain kit vendors consider anything less than a glowing comment to be trashing their product. And over the years their behavior on the forum and via email has been quite problematic.

Discussion about drivers specific to certain kit vendors has also caused similar problems.

So.....

Jon and I talked about this situation at length, it was a mutual decision that we would not allow discussion about vendor kit's or drivers exclusive to kit vendors.

This is an unfortunate situation where the actions of a few vendors resulted in restrictions for all vendors.

[TurboFC3S]

:kneejerk:

Darn, was hoping there would be a smiley perfect for this situation ...

[JonMarsh]

This topic IS someting of a sticky wicket. Notice that we DO have a project posted for the Extremis 6.8 and Adire DOES offer kits. They sell their drivers through multiple sources, and Dan Wiggins DOES conduct himself professionally, even when we've had some critical feedback some aspects of the performance of the Extremis midwoofer.

Some other vendors have not been very professional in the past, and engaged in vitriolic attaches on and offline.

The expression of diverse opinions about speaker design is encouraged, within the context of philosophy of design and factual measurements and tests, as well as subjective evaluations and their corrlation with objective tests.

We don't sell designs or drivers on this board; the activities are non-commercial. When it discussion crosses into products which are sold as DIY kits, or sold exclusively through a DIY kit vendor, then it seems to be too easy for it to get personal.

I have considerable respect for those working to make a living for their families in this area by providing a well designed and contructed product that may not be offered by the so-called big guys- I've met a few of them, and some like Rick Craig and Jim Salk are complete professionals and gentleman.

It may be more appropriate to discuss complete kit designs in the same forum section as commercial speakers (that's where they compete in some sense, unless the "kit" is just drivers and crossover parts), but we're trying to come up with an idea/working concept for a forum section for ket/semi-kit products and their discussion; as Thomas points out, this seems to be an area where too frequently things can get out of hand, and we'd rather those problems occur elsewhere than here. We do not have the personal bandwidth to do a lot of refereeing of discussions.

Anyone with inputs please PM me.

Regards,

Jon

[TurboFC3S]

I'll send you something later Jon, I'm glad to see you're still searching for the right way to handle it. Like I said, I manage a cluster of forums that generated nearly a 1/2 billion page views a month ... so these types of issues come up daily

[johnADA]

I'm kinda at a loss for any understanding of this topic!!

DIY is DIY you would think!!!!

I understand basically the underpinnings of made for profit designs as you state how they can become problematic. But then again you admit to allowing some of them to exist for whatever reasoning. That doesn't make sense and looks to favoritism???
Then on the other hand I have seen and was involved myself in something very similar if not exact in nature of which is according to the rules as stated not allowed. What I mean here is its said that certain vendors take anything but a glowing comment as a trashing of their product. So a heated argument/debate occurs, which no one wants or is allowed. But on the other hand the drivers I picked, which aren't of any of the "elite" users designs and are lam blasted. I was pushed at something the elite has done, which to me is the same as what you wont allow Turbo to do. Its not to your, as a forum, design traits/characteristics, I guess I would call it, therefore not allowed???

Its still someone asking for help and opinions either way in a DIY atmosphere.

Its hard to get the point exact when your trying to keep a post to minimum.
But its as simple as this.
Your both the same from where I stand.
OK, one is for a cash value profit.
But a "Elite" design kit and this would include designing upon a given set of drivers/perimeters to be used, still is a profit, just not monetary wise.

I myself would just like the ideal in aid of any type, no matter what I used to achieve my end result. Now thats DIY!!