Questions about getting started

[Clienthes]

I recently reenlisted in the military, and got a nice little bonus. My wife made the mistake of telling me I could take a couple thousand dollars and "buy whatever I wanted." :twisted:

The first thing I'm buying, much to her dismay, is a table saw and a router. She thinks I'm completely handicapped int he DIY department because of an unfortunate incident while hanging some shelves (totally not my fault ops: ), but I did a bit of woodworking before I met her, and know how to use the tools well enough not to endanger lives. Anyway, I need to prove to her I can handle them so that she'll let me do a little home improvement when we buy a house in the near future.

After that I really want to build CJD's RS 3-ways. I have a couple questions about that project that I'd like to ask before I start ordering the wrong parts, tools, etc.

The first question, since I'll be ordering these first, is how many/what router bits will I be needing? I have no choice but to use MDF for the cabinet, because I'm in Korea. DIY anything isn't big here, so lumberyards that sell anything except pine are impossible to find. Anyway, I know MDF is hard on bits, and I figure that between the holes in the bracing and the baffle, I'm likely to go through a couple up-cut bits, right? Other than that, just a 3/4" chamfer bit?

Also, looking at the xover parts list, I'm not sure what I need. I couldn't seem to find parts that matched some of the values listed. The inductors have a resistance value listed (that's what the ohm value in parenthesis is, right?) that I couldn't seem to find matches for, and I'm not sure what kind of caps to use (there is a dizzying array of them at PE). I think I figured out the resistors, though (I hope).

The last and least important question is about finishing. I'm probably going to have this problem on other projects, though, so I've very curious. I've read several people mention tape-ease as a veneer supplier. I'm not looking at them specifically, but rather mail-order veneer vendors in general. Anything I order will have to make the journey to Korea through the USPS, so I'm wondering how well they'll survive the trip, and how they package/ship a 4'x8' sheet of veneer. 8O

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give me. I'm really looking forward to a good project to kill some time while I'm here away from my family (wife in grad school back in Michigan while I'm in her native coutry trying to keep sane). And thanks to CJD for the design! ;x(

[Clienthes]

Thanks!

Thanks Kingpin for the shopping list, that helps a ton!

I've been following your build for awhile now, by the way. Very nice. Might be pushing the limits of my wife's "anything you want" for me, or I'd be right behind you.

How hard is the MDF on tools? I remember reading in one of the threads about it ruining hole saws, router bits, etc. in short order. It takes a little time to get stuff mail-order, so I want to plan ahead and get any spares I might need before I start. Having to take a two week break because by hole saw got dull would be very irritating.

[JonMarsh]

The key to not ruining bits is using a sensible cutting speed. For this reason, the combination of a variable router with good grunt down low, and a sensible feed rate are the keys. Done properly, single bits will last a long, long time- you want to stay away from overheating them. (Don't forget a dust mask for you, either). Varable speed DeWalt, Bsoch and Hitachi, even Ryobi are the good way to go- besides the former, I have a Ryobi 2 HP variable speed I picked up which works well for the tasks I've been using it on, so for lighter duty use, a good inexpensive router is OK. (The Hitachi M12V is my favorite- have two of them). (I tend to setup routers for specific tasks and bits and leave them that way- improves shop productivity, but it does mean acquiring a few routers over the years).

Hole saws are problematic because they're not carbide, just hardened metal, and MDF does wear them out faster than pine or plywood. Again, sensible feed rates and operating speeds help- I find using hole saws with a drill press is more reliable than hand held usage. But in general, I stay away from hole saws anyway compared with a router and bits.

Good luck, and have fun with your project!

[Clienthes]

Thanks for the info!

[jonathanb3478]

Hole saws are problematic because they're not carbide, just hardened metal, and MDF does wear them out faster than pine or plywood.
...
But in general, I stay away from hole saws anyway compared with a router and bits.

Since I did not see Jon mention it, I will. For circle cutting, I strongly recommend the Jasper Model 200 Circle Jig.

I use that on my DeWalt DW625, which it has mounting holes for, and that is so easy it is a little scary. I have used a 2.5" hole saw on my 3/4HP Drill Press, and that was a nightmare in comparison. I mean truely horrible.

The a carbide bit is going to last a good while. Just do not get a "high speed steel" bit and expect any extended usage out of it in MDF. I would not be in a hurry to get duplicates of any solid carbide (or even just carbide tipped) bits. Much more important is to get truely high quality bits in the first place. They will last a bit longer, but do you really want a cheap, large, sharp metal bit spinning @ >20K RPM to give up the ghost while you are using it?

When I was looking to get my tools, last May, I put questions to the effect of "who makes the best router bits" on a few woodworking forums. Every single answer was something to the effect of "Whiteside", or "Whiteside and maybe MLCS". I mean, every single one. So, I got Whiteside bits. They were widely available on Amazon from a couple different dealers, so I went that way. I see those two dealers don't seel them anymore, but another good source is www.routerbits.com. I will be ordering a couple more from them, once I am back in construction mode.

This is a list of what I can recall I needed, and why I would use it. Take your pick, based on what you want to do with your router:

Description / Whiteside Model # / Cost / Useage

1/4" solid carbide, single flute, up-cut, spiral bit / RU2100 / $15.60 / Use with Jasper jig for cutouts.

1/2" 2-flute, carbide boring tip, straight cut bit/ 1052 / $12.20 / For removing material to make recesses for drivers in cutouts (use before the spiral up-cut cuts all the way through the panel, and so removes the 1/8" guide-hole in the center for the circle jig).

1/2" shaft, 3/4" roundover / 2010 / $45.60 / Most of the speaker projects I have seen are measured with 3/4" roundovers on all baffle edges - use this for best performance match.

1/2" shaft, 2" long, flush trim bit / 2408 / $21.44 / Cut enclosure panels oversized and trim the overhang off with this to make the panel the perfect size.

1/2" shaft, 3/4" tall cutting height, 30-degree chamfer / 2309 / $23.80 / chamfering back of baffle to improve driver airflow.

1/2" shaft, 1/8" roundover / 2005C / $18.00 / Rounding over external cabinet edges to remove easlily damaged, weak MDF sharp corners.

1/4" solid carbide, 2-flute, down-cut, spiral bit / RD2100 / $15.60 / Cutouts through applied veneering - helps to eliminate chipout on these types of cuts.

If all the ones you want add up to too much, you can get the more expensive bits from www.mlcswoodworking.com instead (they sell the 3/4" roundover for 1/2 as much for example), as they are rather well respected, too.

Also, I have ordered from TapeEase already. They just roll it up an put it in a box. I imagine a 4'X8' size (mine was much smaller) would make for a long shipping container. 8O They are a rather low-tech outfit for an online merchant, but I have no real complaints.


One last thing. I got the DeWalt DW625 because I only wanted only one, high quality router (at the time ), and I did not want the router to be the limiting factor for anything I wanted to do in the future. I achieved that, certainly, but in retrospect the DW621 would have been plenty of router for what I have been doing. My DW625 gives the distinct impression of a "hot knife through butter" with the MDF tasks I have asked of it. The built in dust collection on the DW621 (vs the adapter that came with mine) would have been a more useful feature for me than the extra power, in retrospect. I would highly recommend a DeWalt router, and I would most highly recommend the DW621, specifically.

[Ecir38]

I use the Dewalt DW621 too and the dust collection on it works great especially for speaker cutouts. Keep in mind if you go this route you will need a shop vac too. A small one with a 1 1/4 hose would be all you would need. You might want to get an extra hose so the vac won't be in the way.

I went with whiteside bits too and have done a good bit of cutting with them so far and haven't noticed any signs of wear. Downloading and printing out the routerbits.com catalog helped me allot when deciding on which bits to buy.

[jonathanb3478]

I use the Dewalt DW621 too and the dust collection on it works great especially for speaker cutouts. Keep in mind if you go this route you will need a shop vac too. A small one with a 1 1/4 hose would be all you would need.

I would say the "shop vac as DC" appoach is only appropriate if your "shop" is outside, like mine. Inside, a shop vac does not remove small enough particles to keep you healthy after repeated exposure. In my outside "shop", I just aim the exhaust of my "dust pump" into the nether regions of the backyard, so that stuff stays away from me.

For an inside shop you should use an actual DC setup with a powerful enough blower, a Clear Vue level cylcone seperator, and follow that up with a high quality, very small particle cartridge filter (or a pair of them, if needed for enough airflow).

This may be beyond the scope of your thread, however.

For some info on real DC indoors, and the health hazards of not being up to snuff, check this out. 8O

[---k---]

I recently reenlisted in the military, (

Thank you.


As far as your questions about which bits. I've used a bunch of MLCS bits. I think for this project, you won't go through more than one round-over bit, and chamfer bit, etc. The only bit that I could see you burning up and needing more than one of is the Up Spiral bit - especially if you use it to cut all your bracing holes. So this is the one that I would suggest getting at least two of. I don't know if it was just the bit up spiral bit I got from MLCS or if it is common, but it wasn't up to snuff like the rest of the bits I've used from them. The Bosch from Lowes was much better.

Good luck.

[Ecir38]

jonathanb3478, I follow ya but i use my DW621 inside with just a shop vac and it is for the most part a dust free enviroment. I would probably be exposed to more dust if i used a DW625 outside. Now a table saw is a differant matter.

[kingpin]

Jon is correct about the right speeds.
What I found is when using a hole saw they gummed up after 2-3 holes. This was on a drill press by the way. A wire brush held to the hole saw while it was spinning cleaned it up pretty good.

IMPORTANT

Image not available

Proper way to use a hole saw. I found this out to late.
In the pic above.
The light yellow is the hole you want to cut out. Before you use the hole saw to cut it drill 2 holes(white) on the outside edges and this lets the dust escape and makes drilling holes much easier and less costly.

[Clienthes]

Thanks for all the replies. I was planning on going through MLCS for the bits, and was aware that carbide bit was the way to go. I have never worked with MDF before, and I read so many comments about MDF wearing out tools that I guess I got a little paranoid.

I wouldn't want to use a hole saw without a drill press, and I don't have access to one of those. My shop is really just the roof of my apartment, so buying a drill press and lugging it up a flight of stairs just to do holes in MDF when I already have a router doesn't appeal. Just lugging the saw up there, let alone the MDF sheets, is going to be plenty of pain and suffering. If my landlord lets me build a tool shed up there, it might be a different story But a band saw would come before a drill press anyway.

Does anyone have any experience with online wood/veneer sales? I haven't been able to get a reply from any of them, and I'm worried about shipping something like veneer through the mail. I've never used veneer before so I don't know how durable it is; most of my limited wood working experience was with oak and maple boards that I really didn't want to veneer.

[jonathanb3478]

jonathanb3478, I follow ya but i use my DW621 inside with just a shop vac and it is for the most part a dust free enviroment. I would probably be exposed to more dust if i used a DW625 outside. Now a table saw is a differant matter.

The true problem isn't dust you see, it is the ~2.5 micron dust.

My DW625 has a DC adapter, but the plastic structure will not stand up as well to a strong tug from the vacuume hose, as would yours. It is removable, though. I get almost no dust remaining on my workpiece when using it and my shop vac. However, I know that there is a bunch of dust too small to see pouring out the outlet of that shop vac, so I point the outlet into the rest of the backyard.

Maybe you could put a hose on your outlet and run it out a window.

[jonathanb3478]

Does anyone have any experience with online wood/veneer sales? I haven't been able to get a reply from any of them, and I'm worried about shipping something like veneer through the mail.

As I said, I ordered from TapeEase, but they were not full 4'X8' veneer sheets. They were left over pieces. The biggest was 4'X20", with the grain running the 20" direction. I got a 6" square box that was a bit over 20" tall, with the veneer loosely rolled up in it. It arrived in good shape.

As for asking TapeEase any questions, as I already mentioned, they are not a very tech-savy outfit. If you have a question for them (mine, for instance: "What is my tracking number?") you need to pick up the phone and call them. Their email communication skills are, shall I say, under developed.

That was my experience, anyway.

[Dennis H]

If you're really worried about it, many shop vacs double as a leaf blower (good thing to look for if you're buying one). That means the exhaust port will accept a hose and you can pipe the exhaust outdoors.

[Chris7]

Does anyone have any experience with online wood/veneer sales? I haven't been able to get a reply from any of them, and I'm worried about shipping something like veneer through the mail. I've never used veneer before so I don't know how durable it is; most of my limited wood working experience was with oak and maple boards that I really didn't want to veneer.

Unless you're looking for something really exotic, I'd recommend just finding a veneer source in your local area. The advantage of this is you'll actually have a chance to inspect the sheets of veneer before you buy, choosing one with a grain you like. There are carpenters all over, just find out where in your area they get their woods and veneers. Carpenters are practical people and local pricing is usually very good (provided you don't go to a general retail store). Last week I bought a sheet of Teragren (good quality) bamboo veneer locally for less than half of what Oakwood sells it for online. Don't overlook wood wholesalers. The place I go to is a wholesaler, but they sell individual veneer sheets to individual customers, provided it's for your own use, not resale. You don't have to buy in bulk or anything.

[Dennis H]

Clienthes is in Korea. That makes sourcing materials a bit more difficult.

[augerpro]

The true problem isn't dust you see, it is the ~2.5 micron dust.

My DW625 has a DC adapter, but the plastic structure will not stand up as well to a strong tug from the vacuume hose, as would yours. It is removable, though. I get almost no dust remaining on my workpiece when using it and my shop vac. However, I know that there is a bunch of dust too small to see pouring out the outlet of that shop vac, so I point the outlet into the rest of the backyard.

Maybe you could put a hose on your outlet and run it out a window.

I don't know what brand you have, but Craftsmen has 3 levels of filters. The standard one that comes with the vac, then one that also filters sheetrock dust and some other dust, then HEPA that also filters pollens and whatnot. I use the middle one. If I was the OP I'd check out the Craftsmen and get the better filter. Judging from the stock at HD the other brands don't seem to offer better filter, or at least HD doesn't stock them.

[Chris7]

Clienthes is in Korea. That makes sourcing materials a bit more difficult.

I know, but there are commercial home and cabinet builders all over the world, even Korea. Find out where these folks purchase their veneers. i.e. I'm not talking about going to Home Depot or a similar DIY store.

[jonathanb3478]

I don't know what brand you have, but Craftsmen has 3 levels of filters.

Well, I use a bag in my craftsman model (a 12ga). I want to replace the cartrige with a HEPA model, since my cartridge is just a backup in case of a bag breat ATM, but can't justify the expense when I am just filtering what goes into the backyard.

Indoors, however, I would use a drywall effective bag + HEPA cartridge combo, for sure.