Wiring from main panel

**wmilas** · 01 January 2007, 13:34 Monday

I use a protector on my main panel. it occupies 2 20 amp slots (one on each pole) and has a box that juts out with the "guts", lights, status ect. I can give you the exact model number. Its a one use jobbie... once it goes it notifies you its bad and the blown part needs to be replaced.

The idea is that if you have an event on all the wires originating somewhere in the house (ie lightning bolt blows a hole in the roof and hits an outlet and travels down to the panel) it immediately shunts to ground. being on the panel its the best place to do it and protects the rest of the topology from an event racing back up another leg and wreaking havoc.

That said i still have an APC unit on my audio rack. Why? Well if for some horrible reason the even originates between the panel and the apc unit on that leg of wire, the panel surge isn't going to help me. Remote, but it could happen. The main reason is I wanted the RFI/EMI filtering that the APC unit provides.

If I ever get around to it I'd like to build one of those balanced power units with the RFI/EMI filtering.

Anwyas you can use both. IMHO it's silly not to use a panel guard as they are very affordable, easy to install, and very effective. You use a rack unit for a totally different reason... and they play nice together

**ThomasW** · 01 January 2007, 13:51 Monday

I too have whole house surge protection, and additional line conditioning and surge at each major outlet.

**chasw98** · 01 January 2007, 15:11 Monday

Originally posted by kingpin

Since I have a surge protector in the main panel does it hurt if I still use the existing one I have in my rack? Or will this cause any problems?

Would it be a good idea to get a ups for the tv to cool off the bulb when the power goes down.

Suggestions or comments on the wiring and the ups needed and welcomed.

Happy New Year
Mike

Mike:
Here is what I have done at my house. At the panel, whole house surge protection (Square D $50 at HD). 4 20 amp circuits wired with 10 ga copper & Hubbell hospital grade receptacles to the equipment location. 3 circuits feed my power amps. 1 circuit is routed through an EQUI=TECH 2KVA balanced power transformer. This circuit goes to the low level equipment. A monster HTS3500 is used to plug all the equipment into. I use this more for its switching capabilities than its power protection. I then have an APC battery backup that protects the HTPC and the projector so that line disturbances do not shut it off and turn it back on quickly. The UPS is not large, just enough to let me shut down safely if it looks like the power is going wacky for a while, maybe a 15 minute runtime. I have had no problems.

Chuck

**wmilas** · 01 January 2007, 21:14 Monday

I have a question. I see people refer to using hospital grade receptacles. What are the real differences between them and good receptacles picked up at home depot? Is it a tighter mechanical fitting on the prongs or somesuch?

**chasw98** · 01 January 2007, 21:24 Monday

The real differences are more metal being used in the construction, thicker plating on the blades, tighter mechanical fitting as you mentioned. They are just constructed better overall. Most Hospital Grade receptacles are rated for 20 amps as opposed to 15 amps for good quality receptacles. If you really want a good receptacle look for a $100 cryogenically treated unit.

Chuck

**kingpin** · 01 January 2007, 23:03 Monday

Thanks guys.
I guess I was on the right track with everything.
I guess the pocket books get lighter again

Mike

**Glen B** · 17 January 2007, 22:30 Wednesday

Originally posted by chasw98

The real differences are more metal being used in the construction, thicker plating on the blades, tighter mechanical fitting as you mentioned. They are just constructed better overall. Most Hospital Grade receptacles are rated for 20 amps as opposed to 15 amps for good quality receptacles. If you really want a good receptacle look for a $100 cryogenically treated unit.

Chuck

I just came across this post today. Some of the statements are incorrect. The primary difference between standard/commercial and hospital grade devices is that the latter often use phosphor bronze versus brass, the face is made of material that is resistant to the chemicals used in hospitals and the greater plug retention you mentioned. Commercial grade receptacles also feature the tighter grip and chemical resitant face. HG receptacles don't necessarily have thicker metal or plating. Most manufacturers seem to use 0.8mm contacts across all of their grades.

HG receptacles are also designed to minimize arcing that occurs when a plug is inserted/withdrawn. You don't need sparks in an environment where oxygen is being used. There is no "most HG receptacles being 20A versus 15A." Maybe what you see is 20A receptacles being touted by dealers who don't know better as having greater current carrying capability. The truth is, 20A and 15A receptacles are both readily available from manufacturers and are capable of carrying the same current. The only real difference between the two is the "T" neutral slot of the 20A receptacles that permit only 20A rated equipment to be plugged into the circuit. The National Electrical Code permits 15A receptacles to be installed on 20A individual circuits.

Additional discussion: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/twe...es/127541.html

**chasw98** · 17 January 2007, 22:51 Wednesday

Thank you Glen :T I did not realize those differences between receptacles. I have gained some knowledge. Now I am curious as to how or why you know this? Are you an engineer? I would say that most people in the electrical industry would not be aware of those differences.

Chuck

**Glen B** · 17 January 2007, 23:33 Wednesday

Originally posted by chasw98

Thank you Glen :T I did not realize those differences between receptacles. I have gained some knowledge. Now I am curious as to how or why you know this? Are you an engineer? I would say that most people in the electrical industry would not be aware of those differences.

Chuck

I have an electrical background but no, I am not an engineer. Being an engineer does not necessarily make one knowledgeable about electrical wiring and devices. In New York City for example, even if you have a BSEE degree, you cannot obtain an electrician's license unless you can prove that you have a specified amount of hands-on experience working with your own tools on electrical installations. In other words, its about the knowledge and hands-on experience, not the formal qualifications or title. A lot of info. is readily available from the proper sources including the manufacturers if you take the time to do the research.

**Bent** · 17 January 2007, 23:34 Wednesday

I use an Ocelot home automation controller for doing my theater lighting, it uses the old un-reliable X-10 type of signal protocol to talk to my addressable dimmers (however, I've made it very reliable, a labour of love, of sorts). Most whole home surge supression systems will "eat" X-10 powerline carrier signals, so be wary of the supression system you install if using any X-10 or powerline carrier equipment.

**kingpin** · 11 February 2007, 01:16 Sunday

I am trying to get a jump(not literally) on this panel installation. I am not doing the sub panel install, there will be a licensed electrician doing this.

I have searched google but can't find the answer to this question.

How do you get power from the main panel?
ie. does it come from an empty or existing breaker, or some other way?

How much power can you put in the sub panel?
I am changing the sub panel I bought to a 2 leg system so I can install lights and minor appliances on one leg and my audio/video on the other leg.

The main panel has 3 empty spots in it right now.

Thanks
Mike

**Paul H** · 11 February 2007, 10:18 Sunday

Power from a main panel is fed to a sub-panel by a breaker - i.e. main panel breaker to sub-panel feed wire to sub-panel.

The breaker (in the main panel feeding the sub-panel) will be a 2-pole breaker, which will occupy two adjacent spaces in your panel. The wire between the main panel breaker and the sub-panel will be 4-wire, consisting of 2 ea 120 volts feeds (the 2 feeds are in opposite phase), 1 ground and 1 neutral.

The sub-panel can be 40, 60, 100amps - as long as all parts are sized appropriately.

**whoaru99** · 11 February 2007, 10:28 Sunday

Power from a main panel is fed to a sub-panel by a breaker - i.e. main panel breaker to sub-panel feed wire to sub-panel.

...

The sub-panel can be 40, 60, 100amps - as long as all parts are sized appropriately.

I believe there is a rule that governs the maximum size breaker you can install in the main panel that is used to feed the sub panel - although I don't know what that sizing is. The electrician will know that - at least I hope so, anyway.

Another option would be be to install a second main breaker panel that is fed directly from the meter. Surely this would be more expensive as the main breaker box would cost more than a sub panel plus feed breaker, larger wiring from meter to 2nd mains box would cost more, and quite possibly the meter & socket plus the service entrance wire might need to be changed to.

**Gir** · 11 February 2007, 17:33 Sunday

I've had a lot of experience with the APC UPS and some custom manufactured Falcon UPS, and I can tell you those are a reliable bunch, but you have to make sure you check on the battery every few months. Most of the models have some good filtering in them too, which is always a plus. BTW, I worked with most of these in a data center and various network/server closets. The SmartUPS are nice since you can program them to send e-mail diagnostics and such.

-Tyler

**crackyflipside** · 11 February 2007, 21:25 Sunday

Ok, well I guess I can add some substance to the discussion. By code, 20amp receptacles and bathroom receptacles are wired with no gauge smaller than 12AWG. 15amp receptacles use 14AWG.

Range/Oven is wired with 6AWG @ 50A breaker
Water Heater is wired with 10AWG @ 30A breaker

From my main service breaker (200A) outside to the Electric Panel it uses 3x 3AWG wires @ 200A breaker. 2 hots and one nuetral.

**kingpin** · 12 February 2007, 00:35 Monday

Thanks for the atest info gentlemen.
It looks like the main panel is 100amp service.
The electrician says that he can put a double pole 30amp breaker in which will give me a 60 amp sub panel.

On one leg I will have 2-20 amp breakers with isolated grounds for the av equipment, and 1-20amp on another leg for the lights and outlets.

Mike

**chasw98** · 12 February 2007, 09:16 Monday

Mike:
I am not sure how to solve the problem but you might want to look into this. I have a 200 amp service entrance to my house. I ran 3 20 amp dedicated circuits for the Home Theater (aka Living Room). One of the three circuits goes through an EQUI=TECH balanced power transformer. All the low level equipment is connected to this. The other 2 circuits are dedicated to my power amplifiers which state in the owners manual it is best if they are run from a dedicated 20 amp circuit. I used 10 AWG stranded copper for all circuits including neutrals.

Here is what happens. I have an AC voltmeter in my Monster HTS3500 "power conditioner". I mostly use the monster for its switching and delayed turn on - turn off capabilities. When playing music fairly loud +100 db SPL, I can watch the voltmeter drop to around 110 volts. I have verified this with my Fluke voltmeter. Now I do not believe that I am drawing so much current that I am taxing the circuits but still the voltage drops. You might want to ask your electrician whether it is worth it to beef up the wiring or what can be done to avoid voltage sags before you commit to wiring your sub panel. It might be a better idea to tap off the incoming service rather than through a 30 amp breaker. I don't know the answer to this but I do know that an amplifier rated for 100 watts at 120 VAC will not put out 100 watts at a lower voltage.

Chuck

**Dennis H** · 12 February 2007, 15:33 Monday

On one leg I will have 2-20 amp breakers with isolated grounds for the av equipment, and 1-20amp on another leg for the lights and outlets.

Yeah, be sure everthing connected to your AV system is on the same leg. That will help (but not guarantee) prevent hum and noise.

**kingpin** · 12 February 2007, 17:51 Monday

So this whole issue was kind of puzzling me as I was still not sure of how things worked amperage wise and how the ratings worked.

This is what I was told.

When you say you are running a 60 amp sub-panel this means that you are using a 2pole 60 amp breaker from the main panel.
This means that each leg in the sub-panel is rated for 60 amps.
I thought that meant you were getting 30 amps per leg.
So it boils down to the fact that this may be 2 much for me.

I will be running either a 6 or 8 gauge wire from the main panel to the sub panel in case of future upgrades. A 2 pole 40 amp breaker form the main panel which gives me 40 amps per leg.
2-20 amp breakers for the av equipment on one leg.

1-20 amp breaker for lights and outlets and 1-20 amp for the microwave and the fridge on the other leg.
I think I understand it all now.

**Dennis H** · 12 February 2007, 18:13 Monday

Yeah you've got it right. 40A at 240V gives you two legs, each with 40A at 120V. Your electrician is right to put a breaker at the main panel. Otherwise the wire between the main panel and the sub panel would need to be heavy enough to carry the whole 100A service.

You probably know this but the legs alternate as you go down the line of breakers so you can put in a double breaker and get 240V. Be a bit careful about breaker placement in the sub panel to make sure your AV stuff is on one leg and everything else is on the other leg.

About the voltage drop Chuck mentioned, it's legal and it doesn't hurt to use bigger wire, e.g. 20A breaker - 10 ga. wire - 20A receptacle. Also, use the screw terminals on the receptacles rather than the push-in terminals to get better contact.

**kingpin** · 12 February 2007, 18:30 Monday

Originally posted by Dennis H

You probably know this but the legs alternate as you go down the line of breakers so you can put in a double breaker and get 240V. Be a bit careful about breaker placement in the sub panel to make sure your AV stuff is on one leg and everything else is on the other leg.

Yup I found this out by torturing an electrician with questions.
I originally thought that 2 legs meant the panel had 2 opposing sides of breakers. Not really the case. The panel I have has 10 slots right down the middle and the legs alternate as I go along. Just like you said.

Originally posted by Dennis H

About the voltage drop Chuck mentioned, it's legal and it doesn't hurt to use bigger wire, e.g. 20A breaker - 10 ga. wire - 20A receptacle. Also, use the screw terminals on the receptacles rather than the push-in terminals to get better contact.

The run from the sub panel to the outlets will be around 40-50 feet.
The idea right now is to put the sub panel 2 feet away from the main panel.
Would it be more beneficial to move the box closer to the equipment?
I could split the difference easily/20 feet from main panel--->20 feet to outlets.
Awe, probably won't make any difference.
Geez, soon I am going to be buying anti-static spray for all my wires. :B

Thanks Dennis and everyone else who has chimed in so far.

Btw. I recently bought a Tripp Lite's SMART1200LCD UPS. Mostly for my DLP tv. It has a voltage regulator and protects against brown-outs and such.

-SMART1200LCD Digital Uninterruptible Power Supply offers voltage regulation, surge suppression and long-lasting battery support during blackouts
-1200VA/700W power handling
-8 UPS battery-supported outlets
-Regulates brownouts and overvoltages from 75V to 147V back to usable levels without using battery power

**PMazz** · 12 February 2007, 20:50 Monday

Don't forget to disconnect the grounding strap on the sub panel's ground block. Could cause a loop.

Pete

Wiring from main panel

Wiring from main panel

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