Natalie P's Vs Ascend acoustics CMT 340's

[nezz621]

recently i was looking into buying a set of speakers from ascend, but then i stumbled on the idea of DIY and it intrigued me. So now im trying to figure out the best type of speaker to build for my set up. Right now im looking at the Natalie P's and the daytom RS TMWW. can anyone compare these to the ascend 340s?


Ans also, which is a better speaker, the daytons or the Natalie Ps?

i also have to keep in mind this is for a 5.1 set up, so i need the speakers to match the center

All this research is making my head spin 8O

[clearwaterms]

*** the below content is the OPINION of a newbie, I have not built speakers, but have just spent alot of time researching, I feel my information is accurate, but that is my opinion, if anything is said to contradict what I have said, I would tend to believe what others are saying (controversly, if I am write, please feel free to back me up)***

recently i was looking into buying a set of speakers from ascend, but then i stumbled on the idea of DIY and it intrigued me. So now im trying to figure out the best type of speaker to build for my set up. Right now im looking at the Natalie P's and the daytom RS TMWW. can anyone compare these to the ascend 340s?


Ans also, which is a better speaker, the daytons or the Natalie Ps?

i also have to keep in mind this is for a 5.1 set up, so i need the speakers to match the center

All this research is making my head spin 8O

okay, I have not actually built any speakers, YET. But I will. here is my take. The Natalie P is a VERY popular style and it's just one version of the cross over for that speaker.

Check out this website for more details. http://rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html This is a comparison to six other possible cross over networks. The natalie P is the simplest (ie: cheapest) however it's still a well rated speaker setup.

Another very popular speaker is the Modula MT. Jon Marsh designed this speaker it's a MT speaker vs. the Natalie P and Ascend acoustics which are MTM. They are both two way speakers. Jon Marsh also has a cross over for the RS180 MTM, and it's available on this website as the Modula MTM. The reason I bring up the MT speaker is because it has bee compared to the ascend's recently, and while the people that wrote the review were ascend owners already, and they did ultimately choose the Ascends. (remember they have a bias, they already owned the ascend's) They did very much like the Modula MT's. It should be another speaker you consider.

as for the 5.1 setup... The Center channel is a tricky bag, because if you use a standard 2 way MTM, you get alot of off-axis issues, and generally any time you see a 2 way MTM speaker that is designed as a CC it will be a compromise. The nature of the MTM speaker is that it has great dispersion in a vertical alignment, however in a horizontal one, the designer has to make adjustments which ultimately means sacrifices to make it work. The better alternative is the WTMW speaker. The Dayton TMWW thread that you are looking at from this website has the details for that speaker in it as well. Dennis and Curt have designed cross over networks for them, and I have read reviews on both and they both sound excellent. Far better then anything you can buy for the sum of the parts you are putting into the project. The problem is that the cabinet is quite large, the W's are 8" drivers, which means the cabinet is 12" tall and like 16" deep, with cross bracing, it's probably a very heavy speaker. If that will work in your environment, you should be fine. If it's to big, Selah Audio offers a kit based 3 way that uses the RS180 7" driver as it's W's, and people have said that it should have excellent timbre with either of the L and R channels you choose. http://www.selahaudio.com/id115.html

Lastly, to compare the MTM to the TMWW speaker. I have not really read any reviews on these comparisons, the MTM is a two way speaker, and fits in a PE 1.0cu/ft enclosure, while the TMWW would require you to build an enclosure and is a full floor standing model.

Finally, my opinion, if you wish to stick with the proven designs of this website, then you can't go wrong, and will be happy with what ever you end up with. The contributors to this website are all excellent people. And I have a feeling that what ever you end up with you will be happy.

*** the above content is the OPINION of a newbie, I have not built speakers, but have just spent alot of time researching, I feel my information is accurate, but that is my opinion, if anything is said to contradict what I have said, I would tend to believe what others are saying (controversly, if I am write, please feel free to back me up)***

[oxcartdriver]

Right now im looking at the Natalie P's and the daytom RS TMWW.

Ans also, which is a better speaker, the daytons or the Natalie Ps?

i also have to keep in mind this is for a 5.1 set up, so i need the speakers to match the center
8O

The TMWW matching center channel is huge and heavy. Several of my friends state that the TMWW center looks more like a stage monitor than a center channel.

As to which one is "better" it depends, as most comparisons do. In my rather large room I prefer the TMWW's, but the Modula MTM's sound really nice. My room is 36x17x9 LxWxH. Voices may be a bit better with the MTM's. I need to take more time to compare the two designs, but just haven't had the chance. I should add my hearing rolls off at about 16-17Khz.

[---k---]

I own Ascend 340SE. CJD here was nice enough to bring over his DIY MTM design. Chris's was better. The NatP are generally considered even better than Chris's design.

If you want to DIY, are doing this to have fun and as an excuse to buy more tools, and don't care about resale value of the speakers, etc., then you can't go wrong with any of the Mission Accomplished designs. I'm very confident that all of them are better than the Ascends.

However, they will have a different sound, it may not be you cup of tea. There are a couple of different tweeter designs for the ModulaMT to suit different tastes. Not sure about the NatP.

Jon is also rumored to be designing a new wtmw center channel that will be smaller than the current one.

[nezz621]

Phew... los of info to digest here. Thanks for all the advice and info. I feel alot better about this now. So all i have to do now is choose which project to do. I'm also going to consider which project will work best with a center channel and I'll also have to choose a sub to build. Id really like to build towers for the L and R channels so is tht going to effect how well my center will match up with them?

Gotta admit this is really exciting!

[digital desire]

I am sailing a similar boat!

I posted on diy also, looking for input to update my HT.
I have built my share of speakers, but the last ones were quite some time ago. My brother in law however is a master woodworker.
The frustrating part is not being able to hear before you build, and not knowing if the sound you are after will be there when you are done.
My HT is in the finished basement of a raised ranch, and I have had a old set of bose direct reflecting speakers (10.2 original series) that actually did a great job. They are nearing retirement.
On my short list are:
raw acoustics HT8's
Raw acoustics Apex II (Damn big though, perhaps over kill. The speaker blasting out the back would bring back some spatial imaging, one of the things I like about my current speakers)
Nat p's
and the wwmt's.
Also, on the VERY SHORT LIST are these: http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/KITDDR.htm
Here is the room for the HT, my sub is in the right corner, a tc sounds 2k with a buttkicker and LT.
Wish I knew, wish I knew....

[Jim Holtz]

I posted on diy also, looking for input to update my HT.
I have built my share of speakers, but the last ones were quite some time ago. My brother in law however is a master woodworker.
The frustrating part is not being able to hear before you build, and not knowing if the sound you are after will be there when you are done.
My HT is in the finished basement of a raised ranch, and I have had a old set of bose direct reflecting speakers (10.2 original series) that actually did a great job. They are nearing retirement.
On my short list are:
raw acoustics HT8's
Raw acoustics Apex II (Damn big though, perhaps over kill. The speaker blasting out the back would bring back some spatial imaging, one of the things I like about my current speakers)
Nat p's
and the wwmt's.
Also, on the VERY SHORT LIST are these: http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/KITDDR.htm
Here is the room for the HT, my sub is in the right corner, a tc sounds 2k with a buttkicker and LT.
Wish I knew, wish I knew....

I'll address this response to both the original poster and this post. DIY speakers that are of the caliber of the designs listed here strive for accuracy rather than a "specific" sound. Each design will take you closer to the original performance than ""most" commercial speakers costing many times more than your investment for the specific DIY speaker. I'm referring specifically to music.

Home theater is a different situation. A really good music system can and usually will make excellent mains down to their lower limits in a home theater system. A sub is required for a home theater. Inexpensive mains like the Ascends, Adire stuff etc. can work fine in a home theater but will easily be surpassed if you want to enjoy music the way it was meant to be reproduced.

If your only goal is home theater, build the Modula M/T's, stuff the ports and cross your sub with a 24 db crossover (either in the plate amp or a combination of the receiver and the plate amp) around 60Hz - 70 Hz. Integration will be excellent and you can unplug the ports and turn off the sub when you want to listen to music. The TC Sounds 2000 is a very nice sub however and could sound great if blended well. Home theater subs are usually cranked way up to rock the house on movies. Subs don't sound so good adjusted that way for music however.

There are lots of posts about timber matched centers or exactly the same center as the mains. Here's my take on it. The center is the most important speaker in a home theater system and should be voiced the same as the mains. It does not have to be an exact driver match however. The center carries dialog and the mains become effects channels. Voicing is important to get the panning correct but that's about it. Similar drivers do make it easier to accomplish the task. Bottom line, build a center by the same designer as the mains and it'll blend well.

As always, this is just my opinion and worth exactly what it cost you. YMMV...



Jim

[digital desire]

Thanks for the insight Jim.
Would the mtm *and* the mt (for the center) be a useable option? I have read where the mtm does not do so well as a center, at least not as well as the mt?
I really like the music turned up sometimes. I also have been flying for a living for the last 23 years, and I think my ears tend to like a bit of a brighter side.

But, I LOVE the bass!

As far as the duality that is a ht/music sub, I do turn the gain control on the buttkicker up one or two notches for HT use, and back down for music. I can also fine tune a little with the bassis, but have found that I like where it is set now for both, and just change the output via the buttkicker.

Also, my apologies if this a thread jack, did not mean it to turn that way. The o/p sounded as if he were in the same sort of conondrum on trying to figure out which direction to go...

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for the insight Jim.
Would the mtm *and* the mt (for the center) be a useable option? I have read where the mtm does not do so well as a center, at least not as well as the mt?
I really like the music turned up sometimes. I also have been flying for a living for the last 23 years, and I think my ears tend to like a bit of a brighter side.

But, I LOVE the bass!

As far as the duality that is a ht/music sub, I do turn the gain control on the buttkicker up one or two notches for HT use, and back down for music. I can also fine tune a little with the bassis, but have found that I like where it is set now for both, and just change the output via the buttkicker.

Also, my apologies if this a thread jack, did not mean it to turn that way. The o/p sounded as if he were in the same sort of conondrum on trying to figure out which direction to go...

I don't how insightful my post was, just my experience. The line arrays in my avatar is my reference system that I use for both music and home theater. There is a 12" AV12 in each cabinet plus I have a 15" AV15 that is rolled in for home theater only. I like bass too but I've chosen to go sealed rather than ported for easier integration.

I've built the Modula M/T (winner in the Iowa budget class against tough competition), the Natalie P's and the RS 3-ways. The real difference between the Modula M/T and the Natalie P's is sensitivity. Plus, you can use Seas tweeters in the Modula M/T designs. If you like a more full bodied sound, I'd recommend the Modula M/T with a Seas 27TBFC/G tweeter. Chuck built them this way and really likes the sound. I used the TDFC which has a bit more "air" but less body to the treble.

The real deal is to build the RS 3-ways with the Seas 27TBFC/G tweeter. This is a superb speaker that rivals commercial speakers costing many thousand dollars. Clean, smooth and accurate with excellent bass either sealed or ported.

Wait until Jon gets the W-T/M-W center done based on RS180's, RS52 and the Vifa tweeter. That will be the perfect match and have the off axis dispersion you're looking for. There won't be a bad seat in the house with this design center.

Good luck! Once you go DIY, you wonder why you ever bought a commercial speaker. :T

Jim

[chasw98]

nezz621 & digitaldesire:

The frustrating part is not being able to hear before you build, and not knowing if the sound you are after will be there when you are done.

Put your planet in your profile so people can see what area you are in. You might get an invite to hear these speakers! (God, I am starting to sound like a curmudgeon).

I own the Ascend 340SE's L,R.C and the Ascend 170SE's. I have also built the M/T's, the TMWW center and the TMWW mains. They are three different speakers but right now my Ascends are back in their boxes waiting for their next home. I have my 4 M/T's as surrounds (although they sound very good as just left and right occassionally). I also like to turn off the sub and listen to just plain old 2 channel music on the TMWW full range. They are very clear in the hi end and will go deeper than you would think. Listen to Jim Holtz, the man knows a lot. He has taught me a bunch! There are a lot of other people that visit here that are more than just extremely knowledgeable. They will help you, patiently answer questions, and get you unstuck if you get stuck! Almost everyone who has built one of the designs you are discussing has been very happy with the results.

Chuck

[kingpin]

nezz621 & digitaldesire:

(God, I am starting to sound like a curmudgeon).

Chuck

Sorry Chuck. There is only one of those here. cough...thomas...cough. :B :B

Mike

[digital desire]

Spot on the planet!

[nezz621]

I love this stuff... I gotta admit its very exciting to think i can build my own speakers (with my brother). Not to mention i have such a great resource with everyone here who knows so much about the subject, it makes it feel much easier to accomlish the task at hand. My brother and I are really anxious to get started but of course this is alot of money to spend on something we could potentialy screw up. Once i have my sound system all i'll need is the HDtv... anyone know how to build one of those lol.

The real deal is to build the RS 3-ways with the Seas 27TBFC/G tweeter. This is a superb speaker that rivals commercial speakers costing many thousand dollars. Clean, smooth and accurate with excellent bass either sealed or ported.

I'll definitley look into this design and let you guys know what i decide


Thanks again

[jonathanb3478]

Once i have my sound system all i'll need is the HDtv... anyone know how to build one of those lol.

Would you be interested in LCD front projection? I don't have a link directly to one right now, but there are several DIY projects around based on very cheap overhead projectors and disassembled 17" or 19" LCD moni-

-uh, wait. You probably meant that has a joke, right?

:B



I am making a pair of the RS TMWW (seas), myself. I wanted a stereo pair of tower speakers, and they seem to fit the bill, perfectly. My pair is on a rather slow boat to completion, however. Eventually, though, eventually...

...I have faith.

[jonathanb3478]

Sorry Chuck. There is only one of those here. cough...thomas...cough. :B :B

Mike

I thought he was still in training... is he finished with that, already?

:B :B

[ThomasW]

I thought he was still in training... is he finished with that, already?

:B :B

He's a really slow study..... :W