HT Sub issues

**ThomasW** · 27 November 2006, 15:36 Monday

Not having a link to the product makes it a bit difficult of offer suggestions as to the problem.

If it's a plain old plate amp, meaning no special EQ or other tricks, then yes you can substitute a generic amp.

Pretty much anything you scratch build, has the potential for superior performance.

**dyazdani** · 27 November 2006, 15:42 Monday

Originally posted by ThomasW

Pretty much anything you scratch build, has the potential for superior performance.

That's where I'm at too, if you have to buy a new amp anyway, you can spend a little more and get a solid sub.

You can add EQ at any time with a Behringer BFD, so I'd get a working sub first.

You said in the first part of your post:

Originally posted by pereze

The light is on, but it is not recieving signal. With that said, I feel comfortable assuming it is the sub that is having the issue.

By your description, I'm assuming that you meant the sub is getting signal TO the amp, but the amp is not working (tested by using other receivers).

**pereze** · 27 November 2006, 17:39 Monday

Originally posted by dyazdani

You said in the first part of your post:
By your description, I'm assuming that you meant the sub is getting signal TO the amp, but the amp is not working (tested by using other receivers).

That light is red when not recieving signal (in auto turn on mode). Even when trying both receivers, the amp light did not turn green (meaning its on) and did not play anything.

I also switched it to the "on" mode where the light is green. This again did not provide any sound. So, I am guessing that the sub is working, but its just not getting any signal.
With that said, It has a sub in, L&R audio in, and speaker terminal inputs for L&R. I did try the L&R audio inputs which also did not produce any sound. I guess I could try the speaker inputs, but even if they work, I don't want to go that route long term.

Thomas,
Here is a link to the HTIB: http://www.harmankardon.com/product_...ump=ps&#active
The amp is just a plain plate amp (from what I can tell) that came with the pre-built sub.

After some thought, I think I can restate my question. As stated in my first post, this is for HT and is not going to be played super loud. I figure the DIY sub will cost a bit more money, probably $150 for the sub, around 300 for the amp alone (unless I buy a BASH plate amp) plus time and materials.

With that said, will I hear/get any benefit from a DIY sub over buying an inexpensive $200-300 sub such as the elemental designs I saw mentioned on the AVS forum or even spending 500 on. Is there a price point at which the DIY sub makes more sense? Is there a big enough difference in sound quality at moderate levels?

I hope that make more sense.

Thanks Again,
Eric

**ThomasW** · 27 November 2006, 17:58 Monday

Here's a thought....buy a power amp (ButtKicker if you want fanless, or Behringer EP1500 if you can live with the fan). Bypass the old amp and power up the HK box. Be careful or you'll toast the HK12"

Then save up for a nice 12" or better yet 15", and build your DIY sub. You can use the new amp to power it.

Yes a DIY larger box/tube sub with a more manly driver and bigger amp will sound quite a bit better than the HTIB sub

**pereze** · 27 November 2006, 18:13 Monday

Originally posted by ThomasW

Here's a thought....buy a power amp (ButtKicker if you want fanless, or Behringer EP1500 if you can live with the fan). Bypass the old amp and power up the HK box. Be careful or you'll toast the HK12"

Then save up for a nice 12" or better yet 15", and build your DIY sub. You can use the new amp to power it.

That was my thought with number 2 from above.

My concern with doing that is trusting the crossover in the reciever to work properly. I am running my HK520 as a pre/pro and the setting for the crossover is limited at best. 40 and 60 if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by ThomasW

Yes a DIY larger box/tube sub with a more manly driver and bigger amp will sound quite a bit better than the HTIB sub

That answers my main question. If it is going to sound better than anything I can buy under $500, I will go with the amp for now and then build a new Sub when I get a chance.

So is the EP1500 the amp of choice? I have read about the fan being a bit loud. I also was just reading the buttkicker thread and it sounds like the EP1500 will be a better amp (more linear power).

**dyazdani** · 27 November 2006, 18:23 Monday

Originally posted by pereze

So is the EP1500 the amp of choice? I have read about the fan being a bit loud. I also was just reading the buttkicker thread and it sounds like the EP1500 will be a better amp (more linear power).

I have an EP2500 and the fan is quite loud, it's not really an issue for me, but given your constraint on volume, it may bother you.

There is a mod for the fan that quiets it down if you use the search.

**ThomasW** · 27 November 2006, 18:31 Monday

Originally posted by pereze

If it is going to sound better than anything I can buy under $500, I will go with the amp for now and then build a new Sub when I get a chance.

That's a trick question. Depends on what you can find for $500. If someone is selling a $1500 sub used for $500 then no.

The only premade speaker I've purchased in the last 20yrs came from Magnepan or Acoustat. I'm a hard-core DIYer, but I don't make my own planars....

As a result I don't have a clue what companies are offering at the $500 level in new subs

So is the EP1500 the amp of choice? I have read about the fan being a bit loud. I also was just reading the buttkicker thread and it sounds like the EP1500 will be a better amp (more linear power).

Both of these amps are fine. The fan in the EP1500 can be made less loud, but it's still a fan. The BK is passively cooled so no fan noise ever.

**kingpin** · 27 November 2006, 18:32 Monday

You can also get the Behringer with a quiet fan mod already done to it for the same price as PE has.

PM me and I will send you the link

I am not sure if I am allowed to put the link here or not.

Mike

**ThomasW** · 27 November 2006, 18:45 Monday

What's prohibited is a company posting links to their own website or product.

**kingpin** · 28 November 2006, 00:26 Tuesday

Originally posted by ThomasW

What's prohibited is a company posting links to their own website or product.

O.K.
The company is called The Sound Broker.
If you look under the amps section and look up Behringer you will see they replace the fans so they are quieter. How much more, I have no idea. But, I do plan on calling and finding out.

404 Not Found

http://www.thesoundbroker.com/Behringer.htm

BTW Thomas.

curmudgeon:a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man.
That cracks me up. :B :B

Now if I can just find out what JonMarsh's means.

"Irascible but efficacious"
"Obfuscation through elucidation"

**BobEllis** · 28 November 2006, 07:53 Tuesday

Isn't language fun? From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/irascible Jon is saying that he's prone to temper tantrums, but gets the job done. Then he confuses people by explaining how it works.

I got a kick out of Thomas' tag line, too. My kids say that I am no longer in training.

**jonathanb3478** · 28 November 2006, 08:05 Tuesday

Originally posted by pereze

The Boss doesn't let me play the system very loud so I am not looking for a monster sub and I don't want to spend a fortune. I am very interested in SQ and having a solid sub that can perform and that I can turn up at times when the Boss is not around.

You would probably be happy with a single decent 12" driver in a large ported enclosure (Extended Bass Shelf alignment). Add an amp that provides just enough power, with out over extending the driver in the selected enclosure size, and you are good to go. Don't spend much on this first DIY project, and if it turns out to be insufficient in the long term, gift it to an HTIB friend and come back here and build one of those "monster sub" designs you now think you don't need.

Originally posted by pereze

I figure the DIY sub will cost a bit more money, probably $150 for the sub, around 300 for the amp alone (unless I buy a BASH plate amp) plus time and materials.

What about a ~$80 driver and a $105 amp? $185 + enclosure cheap enough for you?

Originally posted by pereze

With that said, will I hear/get any benefit from a DIY sub over buying an inexpensive $200-300 sub such as the elemental designs I saw mentioned on the AVS forum or even spending 500 on. Is there a price point at which the DIY sub makes more sense? Is there a big enough difference in sound quality at moderate levels?

The primary advantage of a largish DIY sub is much better extension. It would reach down lower vs a similarly priced retail sub. DIY designs can actually reach sub 20Hz at levels very similar to what they put out at, say 30Hz. You will not find retail subs that can do that very often, much less a cheap retail sub.

If you already have the tools and woodworking skills to make an enclosure (I can do it, so it is not hard for woodworking beginners), I see no price point that DIY cannot compete in. Take the above driver and give it a 70w plate amp ($50 at PE) and you can best something like the YST-SW216 from Yamaha ($150 retail) with a $130 driver/amp combo. Use a $25 sheet of 3/4" MDF and a $19 worth of vinyl wrap from Parts Express and you have a good looking enclosure. Upgrade the amp to the one I linked to, and you can best much more expensive subs than the Yamaha I just mentioned.

You do that by putting something like the Mach5 Audio driver I linked to in a largish ported box (4.75 cuft, net) with a low tune (18Hz). This combo would blow away the response of any retail sub for the same cost (not counting any labor charge for your time, of course). You might find higher output at ~50Hz from a retail sub, but not at <20Hz. Nothing like doing it yourself to get it done right. :T

A sub made of 3/4" MDF with that much net volume would be 26" X 19.5" X 21.5", for example. That gives you >4.75 cuft net internal volume after taking the driver, the bracing, the port tube, and a 1.5" thick front baffle into account. Maybe that is just too large for The Boss, however.

I have already searched for the best low cost sub setup for DIY, based on my preferences and the fact I don't mind a good sized enclosure. Here is why I like the combination I have mentioned here. The gray line is the SPL Win-ISD projects for the Mach5 12" driver in a 135L (4.76 cuft) enclosure tuned to 18Hz and "taken" @ 1 meter, with no room gain:

That yellow line is the same driver in a 1.5 cuft sealed enclosure using a bit more power. The respective power levels are the most the respective designs will take before the driver substantially exceeds its capabilities at some frequency >20Hz.

Good luck with whatever way you decide to go!

**pereze** · 28 November 2006, 10:30 Tuesday

Originally posted by jonathanb3478

What about a ~$80 driver and a $105 amp? $185 + enclosure cheap enough for you?

I have not heard of Mach 5 in my reading. Also, the price looks to be cheaper than you posted (unless you are including shipping). Thanks for the Info.

Because of what I have read, I was looking at the TC-1000 12" sub. Its about $160. It does not look like either of these subs need a ton of power so would I be better off getting one of the BASH amps like you posted (either the 300 or the 500) OR should I get the EP1500 in case I need/want more power? It seems like the EP1500 is a bit of overkill, but I keep thinking it can be used as a 2 channel amp at some future time if I want and that makes it more appealing.

Originally posted by jonathanb3478

Maybe that is just too large for The Boss, however.

Funny thing is with the space behind the couch, assuming that would be a decent place to put the sub, I have a good amount of room. If I make it look nice, she has been pretty open to giving me floor space. With that said, I can't build anything like JonW's.

No offense JonW, I just can't phathom that Sonosub. I am jelous. ;x(

The room is about 18 x 18 with openings to the kitchen and foyer.
Here is a pic of the room before we bought the house, but it will give you an idea of the layout and where I am thinking of placing the sub.

Thanks,
Eric

Attached Files

**jonathanb3478** · 29 November 2006, 14:31 Wednesday

Threads elsewhere have been popping up with people on short budgets starting Mach5 based sub projects. I have yet to read anyone who has finished and says how they like them, however. I like the details of the 3dB EBS alignment Win-ISD spits out for one of the 12"ers. The cost is just icing on the cake, so to speak.

They are $50 (US) at the moment, but the Canada Post shipping to CA (my location) is close to $30 (US). It would be less than $80 to get one to CA, but only by a few $.

The EP1500 is a good amp (once the fan is modded), no one denies that. The thing is, it is ~$265. That and the $160 12" driver is actually $180, after shipping. So, ~$445 for both. You could recycle the EP into another use if a 12" DIY sub doesn't work for you, of course. The thing is, if you want to upgrade your sub in the future, there are better amp alternatives to the EP1500 for that role. Say the EP2500 for ~$30 more, or the Buttkicker amp for ~$15 less, if you do not need the added connection options a pair of 2ohm stable channels gives you.

My point(s) in recommending the project I did is (are) that it is very cheap, but it is, most likely, going to be sufficient for you in your application. The only drawback is the ~5 cuft (gross) enclosure that is needed. You mention that this is, fortunately, not an issue for you.

If you were to drop the <$185 needed to build a sub with the Mach5 using the BASH 300w, and it turned out to just wet your appetite for a "monster sub" project (as a first good sub often does) you would have a complete, good, and very cheap sub to gift to a friend. You could then start picking replacement components based on what you then thought your requirements would be. I would think that would be better than trying to guess now what might work if your first try is not enough.

Just my $.02

PS: That room looks gorgeous!

**jonathanb3478** · 29 November 2006, 15:11 Wednesday

I will say you could build a sub with a good bit more output using the TC-1000 12"er and a 500w BASH plate amp.

That is a $340 setup with a 7.25 cuft (gross) enclosure size minimum, however. If a single Mach5/300w BASH is not enough, you could get essentially equivalent output out of a co-located pair of the Mach5 vs a single TC-1000. The price of those two setups is also essentially equivalent.

**pereze** · 29 November 2006, 15:19 Wednesday

***EDIT***
I somehow missed your larger post.

I appreciate you thinking of the cost as it is a factor, but I was leaning toward the EP1500 because I could always use it for something else like a 2 channel system if I wanted. If the EP1500 is complete over kill, that might help me decide...to buy it.

Althought, what you are telling me is I need the EP2500, right? :E :W

Kingpin,
The sound broker did not honor the sale on his home page (don't really blame the guy) so you did not miss anything. My dilema is *IF* I go with the EP1500 do I get it from PE with free shipping, or from him with the fan mode for about $25 more.

Hummmm...

**BobEllis** · 29 November 2006, 15:35 Wednesday

Or you could buy the RSS315HF and the same 500W Bash amp for $261 with free shipping from Parts Express. Less than $40 more gets you the RSS390HF (just shy of twice the displacement of two RSS315s). Zaph seemed very happy with his RSS315 sub project (http://www.zaphaudio.com/archives-20.zip).

Make a nice cabinet to go behind the couch with two chambers and stick another RSS390 in it when your budget allows. :twisted:

Seriously, I recommend going for at least a 15" or two 12" to give you some headroom. The cost difference is small and the performance benefit is large. I run a pair of 18" subs in a room of similar size, so you know my frame of reference. They are old JBL2245Hs with only 9 mm xmax, so the total displacement is probably not much different than two RSS390HF. One was nice but adding the second made a big difference. I can EQ for greater extension (mid teens) and stay clean.

**kingpin** · 29 November 2006, 17:25 Wednesday

Originally posted by pereze

Kingpin,
The sound broker did not honor the sale on his home page (don't really blame the guy) so you did not miss anything. My dilema is *IF* I go with the EP1500 do I get it from PE with free shipping, or from him with the fan mode for about $25 more.

Hummmm...

Can you tell me what happened. Probably better off pm'ing me.
Also what did he tell you about how good the fan mod they are doing is.

Thanks
Mike

**pereze** · 30 November 2006, 12:23 Thursday

PM sent.

I did some searching, but I did not find an answer to my next question.
My HK 520 has an RCA sub out. What is the recommended way to connect this to the EP amps?

I assume I need a splitter run to a cleanbox and then XLR's to the amp, or some sort of cable that converts it.

**ThomasW** · 30 November 2006, 12:52 Thursday

If you need a CleanBox is goes like this

Subout (RCA) to Cleanbox in (RCA), CleanBox out (XLR) to everything else that has XLRs

If you don't need a CleanBox you need a RCA to mono 1/4" plug adapter

or cable with a RCA at one end and an mono 1/4" plug on the other end to go from the sub out to the EP amp input

**Brian Bunge** · 30 November 2006, 13:47 Thursday

pereze,

Could you PM me with the details as well? This does look like a good deal and am wondering why he wouldn't honor the sale. Or was there a different price than the $329 price currently posted?

**pereze** · 30 November 2006, 15:12 Thursday

Thanks Thomas for the info.

Originally posted by ThomasW

If you need a CleanBox is goes like this

And whether I need a Cleanbox or not is determined by the level of my pre-out, correct?

With either of the other two options you mentioned, do I need to split the subout into two (I only have one) for the left and right inputs on the EP amp?

PM is going to be sent shortly Brian.

I just want to say thanks for all the help here. This forum is full of great information and great people. I appreciate the effort.

HT Sub issues

HT Sub issues

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