TC Sounds or Dayton?

[gitarretyp]

I've been a lurker here for a while, and i'm sorry my first post is a which is better post, but i really need some opinions.

I'm trying to decide on a sub (or two) to replace my current sub, a gr research sw-12/pr-12. The current sub just can't keep up with my mains (a custom design by selah audio using a seas W22 for the low end), but has plenty of output for me. I'm looking for maximum sound quality and have narrowed the choices to the Dayton RSS390hf or TC Sounds TC-1000 12". I'd pretty well decided on the Daytons until the recent sale on the TC Sounds muddled things a bit.

I plan to use them in a sealed enclosure (i'm not interested in ported or PR designs) of ~2.5 ft^3 and apply a LT and/or EQ. Both subs model similarly in WinISD and have roughly the same excursion limited max output below ~30 Hz. I'll be using the rythmik audio A350 plate amp (350W RMS) and the room is an L shape, ~17' x 11' (small part of the L where the stereo resides) and 10' x 20' for the other part of the L.

From what i've read, the Dayton has the upper hand for upper bass, but the TC is better down low. So, my question for those that have experience with the two: which is the more musical subwoofer?

[Amphiprion]

The TC-1000 is the new version of the TC-2+, yes? If so I would go with the TC. Lots of folks really liked those drivers, and they probably have a bit more throw than the Daytons. I have an RS315HF waiting to go into a testbox, and it's a good driver too. Seriously well built for the price, but not what I'd call a real long-throw driver.

FYI: My RS315HF is very close to spec. Way closer than I expected given the price, as good as any other brand I've tried. But I've only got one unit.

[gitarretyp]

The TC-1000 is the new version of the TC-2+, yes? If so I would go with the TC. Lots of folks really liked those drivers, and they probably have a bit more throw than the Daytons. I have an RS315HF waiting to go into a testbox, and it's a good driver too. Seriously well built for the price, but not what I'd call a real long-throw driver.

FYI: My RS315HF is very close to spec. Way closer than I expected given the price, as good as any other brand I've tried. But I've only got one unit.

No question, the TC has way more excursion (24 versus 14 mm), but the larger cone area of the dayton compensates for the difference in excursion. So, that's not much of a factor, really.

[Amphiprion]

Ooh, sorry forgot we were comparing a 12 to a 15. I'd have to run the numbers to have an opinion then.

[brent_s]

Can you clarify "can't keep up"? I'm guessing you mean sound quality since you say it has enough output. What don't you like about the SQ?

For an experiment, you could try your SW12 sealed. In 2.5 ft^3, it has a nice low Qtc of .637 with about 5db less output than the a ported alignment in 2.4 tuned to 20hz...less difference the higher in frequency you go. If you like the SQ sealed, pick up a second SW-12 to get +6db more output with the same SQ.

-Brent

[soho54]

Both the TC2+, and RS 12" drivers are top notch. The RS gets the greater upper range vote, with the TC devastating it in extension. You want the 12" TC or 15" RS though.

The TC-1000 comes from great stock. It will have some wiggle room for boost, and comes in with a Qtc ~.67 in that enclosure.

Now the RS 15" hasn't been put though the same testing the 12" has, but it is no slouch either. The only problem is in a box that small it straddles the xmax line from 25hz down, so an LT or boost is no good here. The RS 15 would also have a higher Qtc of ~.74

If I had to pick one I would go with the TC-1000, for the lower natural Q and the ability to play with the EQ a little more.

For the record I own 7 TC2+ 12"s and 2 RS 15" HFs. :T
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This comment puzzles me though,

The current sub just can't keep up with my mains (a custom design by selah audio using a seas W22 for the low end), but has plenty of output for me.

What xover are you using? Have you played with the phase and distance setttings? What is the roll off of the mains? Sounds like an integration problem, to me.

[gitarretyp]

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This comment puzzles me though, What xover are you using? Have you played with the phase and distance setttings? What is the roll off of the mains? Sounds like an integration problem, to me.

The only crossover used is that of the plate amp, 12db/octave set to ~65Hz. I've played with phase settings and sub location (it's been in two different houses even). Phase and crossover value were chosen to obtain the flattest measued response (eq has also been applied). The roll off of the mains is the natural roll off of the sealed w22.

No matter the settings, the sub muddies the bass. For instance, a resonant kick drum doesn't sound right. With just the mains, i get the initial attack and a clean decay. With the sub, there's only attack and no decay.

[Inu_Yasha]

For the record I own 7 TC2+ 12"s and 2 RS 15" HFs. :T

For what reason would you need that many subs (with the exception being IB). Even in IB I honestly couldn't see the need for more than 4 TC2+.

I have heard a lot of good about the TC2+ and considering that you're doing a smaller box, I would have to give my vote for the TC2+. If you were willing to do a little larger box then I would cast my vote with the RS 15" HF.

[morbo]

Have you got a BFD or any other sort of room EQ? Or at the very least an SPL meter? I would definately want to run room eq wizard and get an idea of what the 10-200hz response at your listening position looks like before laying out a lot of time and effort for new subs...

[soho54]

For what reason would you need that many subs (with the exception being IB). Even in IB I honestly couldn't see the need for more than 4 TC2+.

My mains contain two each, one in each car, and one that I ordered for a friend when I ordered the car set and he never paid me for it. :B

The RS 15HF's are replacing my current sub.

If that deer hadn't jumped in front of my wife's car on Sunday, I would have been ordering six more while they are on sale, for a few more Arvo's. :cry:

[ThomasW]

Even in IB I honestly couldn't see the need for more than 4 TC2+.

4-18"s is rapidly becoming the new standard for high performance IB subs

If that deer hadn't jumped in front of my wife's car on Sunday, I would have been ordering six more while they are on sale, for a few more Arvo's. :cry:

Yikes that's a scary and dangerous situation. I hope she escaped uninjured...

[gitarretyp]

Have you got a BFD or any other sort of room EQ? Or at the very least an SPL meter? I would definately want to run room eq wizard and get an idea of what the 10-200hz response at your listening position looks like before laying out a lot of time and effort for new subs...

Yes, I used REQ wizard with a RS SPL meter and a DSP1124 to setup the sub.

[gitarretyp]

For what reason would you need that many subs (with the exception being IB). Even in IB I honestly couldn't see the need for more than 4 TC2+.

I have heard a lot of good about the TC2+ and considering that you're doing a smaller box, I would have to give my vote for the TC2+. If you were willing to do a little larger box then I would cast my vote with the RS 15" HF.

What's a little larger? I could probably get away with 3 ish ft^3 before the WAF gets too low.

[soho54]

Yikes that's a scary and dangerous situation. I hope she escaped uninjured...

Yes, she was fine, just un-nerved. It hit on the drivers side front bumper and rolled over the car, then got up and ran off. Front quarter crushed, and hove marks all over the hood and roof. :roll: Just pulled the coMprehensive coverage on it too. :cry:

I'm going to just buy her a new one I think. There goes the play money.

[rythmikaudio]

No matter the settings, the sub muddies the bass. For instance, a resonant kick drum doesn't sound right. With just the mains, i get the initial attack and a clean decay. With the sub, there's only attack and no decay.

I tried to send a personal email and it didn't work. So I will post it here.

If you are looking for a musical sub, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend our DS12 servo kit (since you already consider our A350 amp). I have a customer pair it with Wilson front speakers and he thinks the sound is comparable to the REL sub he borrowed from a friend.

Brian

Rythmik Audio

[gitarretyp]

If you are looking for a musical sub, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend our DS12 servo kit (since you already consider our A350 amp). I have a customer pair it with Wilson front speakers and he thinks the sound is comparable to the REL sub he borrowed from a friend.

Brian

Rythmik Audio

Brian,

I've considered it, but wouldn't i need to purchase a new amp to take advantage of the servo aspect? I think i've read elsewhere that the DS12 is a modded TC2+. If that's true, do you mind disclosing what's done to it besides adding a sensing coil?

[rythmikaudio]

Brian,

I've considered it, but wouldn't i need to purchase a new amp to take advantage of the servo aspect? I think i've read elsewhere that the DS12 is a modded TC2+. If that's true, do you mind disclosing what's done to it besides adding a sensing coil?

I assume you are local. We are in Austin now. That will make things easier. To use servo, you do need to have the A370 servo amp. You can trade in your existing A350 if you already have one.

We have a short circuit ring to reduce the flux and inductance modulation. If you check the inductance, we are in the range of 1mh vs 2mh for TC2+. Also the parameters are designed for sealed box. You will get more output from 30hz and above vs a similar TC2+ driver (which has low Q) due to the back EMF stall. Low Q drivers are more for vented box sub.

80% of the sound characteristics are from the drivers themselves and only 20% is from the room. I have yet to hear a room that is so bad that makes a Steinway sound like a Yahama in 10 feet distance. If someone gives the counter argument that a Yahama can sound like Steinway in some rooms, that just says room mode can be good, so why EQ it out?

PE RS drivers and TC drivers are all good drivers, but if you are into clarity and musicality, it is the synergy of the servo that give the servo kits an edge.

Brian

Rythmik Audio

[SteveCallas]

80% of the sound characteristics are from the drivers themselves and only 20% is from the room

Have you seen some of the roller coaster responses people have measured before?

[rythmikaudio]

Have you seen some of the roller coaster responses people have measured before?

Has anyone measured the room acoustic in any music hall or recording studio? I don't think so.

The only room that has perfect flat response is anechoic room. I've been to one, and I don't like the sound. If you haven't been to one, I would encourage you to. Try the microwave research lab in the university. It is the same thing.

Brian

Rythmik Audio

[soho54]

A flat in room FR is part of the package, but remember you can EQ a Jensen 12" just as flat in room as a TC2+, but they are not going to sound the same.

There are alot of other _Blank_ Response's that are more closely tied to the driver than FR.

It's all good.

[ThomasW]

No matter the settings, the sub muddies the bass. For instance, a resonant kick drum doesn't sound right. With just the mains, i get the initial attack and a clean decay. With the sub, there's only attack and no decay.

This is a two fold situation. First is the high group delay of the GR driver/PR combination, next is probably a placement/room treatment issue.

Note to Brian of Rythmik and gitarretyp

Please continue the discussion of Rythmik's products off-line using PM or email.

No retailer/wholesaler/mfgr is allowed to hype their wares using this forum.

Note to Brian and SteveC

If you guys want to debate anything, kindly use a different forum.

[soho54]

First is the high group delay of the GR driver/PR combination

Now it makes sense, I should have looked his equipment up. I missed the PR part. 8)

[gitarretyp]

I hadn't given it much thought before but getting another sw-12 and running the pair in a single sealed box is an interesting option (cheap too ). Does anyone know of any published measrements on the GR subs (distortion and such)? I have my doubts that a paper cone woofer could keep up with the low levels of distortion a more pistonic cone generate.

[Jack Gilvey]

80% of the sound characteristics are from the drivers themselves and only 20% is from the room. I have yet to hear a room that is so bad that makes a Steinway sound like a Yahama in 10 feet distance. If someone gives the counter argument that a Yahama can sound like Steinway in some rooms, that just says room mode can be good, so why EQ it out?

Interesting, to say the least.

[Rick Craig]

You may want to consider the AuraSound NS12-513. With equalization in a compact sealed enclosure I found it to be very clean.

[gitarretyp]

You may want to consider the AuraSound NS12-513. With equalization in a compact sealed enclosure I found it to be very clean.

I've modeled that driver in 2.5 ft^3 and get excursion limited output at 20Hz of only 94db compared to 101db for the TC. So, it doesn't seem to me to be a good choice for a LT to be applied.

[Rick Craig]

I've modeled that driver in 2.5 ft^3 and get excursion limited output at 20Hz of only 94db compared to 101db for the TC. So, it doesn't seem to me to be a good choice for a LT to be applied.

Actually the enclosure could be much smaller than that for a LT. I personally wouldn't use the LT unless multiple woofers are implemeted. With a single woofer per side the 12db filtering with a typical plate amp really helps minimize excursion demands below 20hz.

[gitarretyp]

I don't like the specs of the RSS390HO as much, but it would provide a much lower Qtc than the HF. Would the HO be better, sound quality wise, than the HF given the enclosure size and application of a LT?

[ThomasW]

Neither the HF or HO RSS390's are good candidates for an LT circuit. The Xmax is simply too short unless you use multiple drivers.

[gitarretyp]

Neither the HF or HO RSS390's are good candidates for an LT circuit. The Xmax is simply too short unless you use multiple drivers.

I'm curious about this. In my models using WinISD with a box size 2.5 ft^3 and applying a LT with fp=17Hz and Qp=0.6 with a 1st order highpass tuned to 15Hz (one of the selections available on my plate amp), i reach xmax at ~12 Hz using the HF. This corresponds to 92db at 12Hz, 99 at 20Hz and 105 at 100Hz. Nearly 100db with no room gain factored in seems like plenty of output at 20Hz. Is there something i'm missing?

By the way, using the same model with the 12" TC-1000 yields about 0.4db more output at 20Hz.

[Brian Bunge]

Neither the HF or HO RSS390's are good candidates for an LT circuit. The Xmax is simply too short unless you use multiple drivers.

I'm planning on using 4 of the HO's with an LT! :T

[gitarretyp]

I'm planning on using 4 of the HO's with an LT! :T

Out of curiosity, what size enclosures do you plan to use?

[Dennis H]

I'm with Brian. 2 of the 15" HO in 3 cu.ft. or 4 of them in 6 cu.ft. looks tasty. The advantage of using pairs of cheaper drivers instead of one uber driver is mechanical force cancellation if you put the drivers on opposite sides of the box. Then they won't walk all over the floor and you can set a lamp or whatever on them.

I'm thinking two cabinets, 2 drivers each, disguised as end tables would be nice. Make cabinet door frames with prewoven cane material on the back side and use them for grills. They'd look nice and nobody would know they were subs unless they tried to open the doors.

[Brian Bunge]

The design is on my laptop so I don't remembe exactly. I think it's around 160L or so. The dimensions I have worked up are 36"H x 18"W x 23"D, but the front/back baffles will be 1.5" thick with all other walls being 3/4". That's around 179L before bracing and driver displacement. The Q might be a little high, but that's what the LT is for.

[Mazeroth]

The Dayton RS390HF are on sale for $139 with FREE SHIPPING. I guess this could change things :T

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&partnumber=295-468&sf=06g-13&destination=part_number

[gitarretyp]

The Dayton RS390HF are on sale for $139 with FREE SHIPPING. I guess this could change things :T

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...on=part_number

That's part of the reason i like them :B

[engr_dave]

OK, you guys have me interested in this 4 x RSS390HO idea :T

I've been planning a sealed - LT sub for a while now. I bought a Crown K2 for power (1250W/ch @ 2ohms) and some of Bob Ellis' LT boards. I was originally going to go with dual TC-2000s on opposing faces of a 140L box, but they no longer on sale and out of stock. :cry: Then I nearly pulled the trigger on RL-p15s. But with HO's on sale... hmmmm :drool: Now I'm thinking like Dennis H: 2 100L boxes, two drivers each. Anybody see any pitfalls with this approach? I like the idea of front "stereo subs" (my Lexicon MC-12 pre-pro supports this, in addition to separate LFE sub)

I figured I'd need a BFD to tame room modes. The DEQ2496 seems to be more "audiophile quality" than the popular 1124P "BFD". Is it really worth 2x the price? Will it implement an effective LT by itself?

[Dennis H]

Yup the DEQ has shelving filters so it will do the LT. It also has a built-in RTA for quick and dirty 1/6 octave measurements so it's a handy little box.

[engr_dave]

Thanks Dennis H.

Do you know if the DEQ has line-outs to go to a sound card so I can use room modeling software on a PC like room eq wizard? In this case the DEQ would be essentially be just a mic preamp.

The 4 x HO setup looks quite good on paper. I went ahead and bought the drivers yesterday. :T Unfortunately my modest modeling software (BassBox 6) doesn't "speak" LT. I'd like to size the boxes (and the corresponding LT boost) so that the drivers are just hitting xmax when the amp clips at, say, 20Hz. Is there a straghtforward way to do this?

[ThomasW]

Do you know if the DEQ has line-outs to go to a sound card so I can use room modeling software on a PC like room eq wizard? In this case the DEQ would be essentially be just a mic preamp.

It's a line level device. I'm not sure how it would work with REQW. Here's a link to more info. At the top of the webpage is a link to the DEQ manual

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/SubwooferSetupandEQpageDEQ2496.html

[gitarretyp]

Thanks Dennis H.

Do you know if the DEQ has line-outs to go to a sound card so I can use room modeling software on a PC like room eq wizard? In this case the DEQ would be essentially be just a mic preamp.

The 4 x HO setup looks quite good on paper. I went ahead and bought the drivers yesterday. :T Unfortunately my modest modeling software (BassBox 6) doesn't "speak" LT. I'd like to size the boxes (and the corresponding LT boost) so that the drivers are just hitting xmax when the amp clips at, say, 20Hz. Is there a straghtforward way to do this?

Try using WinISD Pro Alpha.

[Paul Ebert]

I thought I'd bring this thread back to life to as the same question in a different context.

So, which would you choose between a pair of the TC-1000 12" per side and a pair of RSS390HF per side for a dipole configuration covering 150 hz down. It doesn't have to be flat to 20 hz or terrifically loud down low. Efficient and clean are what I'm looking for.

Thanks.

[ThomasW]

The AuraSound 12"s.....:wink:

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/aurasound/NS12-513-4A.pdf

[Paul Ebert]

Yeah, I guess those could work. A bit more $, but not too bad.

Thanks.

[ThomasW]

Paul,

Those have the lowest distortion of any 12" driver Jon's ever measured. He'll be using 2 per side in his new VERY high-end dipole.